NiGHTS: General Discussion

[markusbeutel]

just one quick question: did you thought about adding a tech diffusion instance to keep lesser nations from falling behind even further? (I mean: technologies getting less and less expansive, the more other nations already researched them...)

on another note: i can't wait until august 14th! Is there a short, more precise preview of the new technology-tree, new buildings etc.?

anyway... thanks for your fantastic work...

I've thought about tech diffusion - and I will probably add something to the mod in that regard eventually, but first I'll need feedback on overall balance across a variety of game speeds, map types, play-styles, etc.

I'll post more complete pics when I finish writing up the new front page - I actually was planning on updating that later today, but woke up to a surprise patch attack this morning. The good news is the damage is minimal this time around, and things remain on track for a Sunday release.

Are any of you planning on buying the Korea/Wonders DLC? Korea will be included in the update, but the Wonders - in their purchased form, will not. As I've said before, I'll include alternate versions of the new Wonders in the game instead . If you do end up buying the Wonders, know that they won't show up in the game - as I'd taken measures that saved me some grief from the patch, (replacement Tech's/Buildings, Policies), which means the new Statue of Zeus won't appear under my version of Philosophy as it's labeled differently.

This rule also applies to any other mod components used in conjunction with Nights that add(s) buildings/units to the game - so don't be surprised when they don't appear. (If there's any specific building/units mods you do use that you'd like included in the mod, send me a pm and I'll see what I can do post-release).

In the meantime, this means that Gazebo's City-State Diplomacy mod will not work with NiGHTS, (RED should work, at least in regards to Units/Unit Classes already in the game). I was planning on including CSD, but I really need balance feedback before I can do that, as it can have a huge impact on gameplay. Once V9 is stable, and I have a good handle on what needs to be tweaked, it will be included with the mod itself along with a few other mod components. In the meantime, some of the buildings from CSD are already included in V9, (with different abilities), so you know it's only a matter of time before they're reinstated in full.

 

[Karantaner]

I will buy the Korea DLC sometime in the future - when there is a good offer like -50% BUT I will certainly not purchase the Wonders DLC. For sure!

 

[Panda_Power]

I will buy the Korea DLC sometime in the future - when there is a good offer like -50% BUT I will certainly not purchase the Wonders DLC. For sure!

Same here.

Would be crazy to buy the wonders DLC when you're giving them, and so much more, to us for nothing!

 

[markusbeutel]

I will buy the Korea DLC sometime in the future - when there is a good offer like -50% BUT I will certainly not purchase the Wonders DLC. For sure!

Same here.

Would be crazy to buy the wonders DLC when you're giving them, and so much more, to us for nothing!

Good to know - I figure the majority of people won't be purchasing it, but then again - packaging it up in the bundle was a good move on Firaxis' part.

On the playtesting front, (all that's left now is tweaking values and implementing artwork), I've managed to alter Diplomacy quite a bit. The AI is far less schizophrenic, and Denouncements are not nearly as common as they once were. That being said, I've managed to get the AI's that you would think would be aggressive, to act aggressively the majority of the time - while at the same time valuing existing friendship to a far greater extent.

Backstabbing has been lowered for Civ's you wouldn't expect to be backstabbed by, (Ghandi), but that doesn't mean that they won't ever commit the act. Early rush wars have also been pushed back to around turn 40 on the AI's part so that they can muster better armies instead of throwing 5 Warriors at you. (Again, extremely early rushes will still occur to some extent by the likes of Montezuma/Oda/Askia, etc - but they'll almost always come at you with at least Spearmen).

Trades have been tweaked so that the AI is now far more likely to make 1 for 1 Luxury deals if it benefits them just as much as it does you.

Warmonger penalties have been scaled back, (especially at the expense of fighting other AI Civ's), and have less of an impact on AI relations - but harsh penalties will still occur for declaring on City-States.

I'm actually enjoying Diplomacy to some extent at this point with these changes...

 

[Balerune]

Well, I'm having trouble with Steam accessing my account and the only reason I have it and Civ V at all is to play your mod but if they keep hassling me (they won't simply delete the account in question and let me open another account and re-register the game) then I'll just say you did a great job but it's hasta la vista for me.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Huck Finn]

Can you please make the minimum city distance to 4 tiles, for the next version? In my current games the AI always spams its cities 2 tiles away....this results in all of their cities having very limited potential in the long run.

 

[markusbeutel]

Can you please make the minimum city distance to 4 tiles, for the next version? In my current games the AI always spams its cities 2 tiles away....this results in all of their cities having very limited potential in the long run.

Done.

 

[Sneaks]

I'm looking forward to this quite a bit!

 

[Karantaner]

Done.

NICE! I also prefer more space between cities!

 

[warden68]

Done.

can this be set by map type, or map size. if you are playing a small map or an island map it becomes very annoying. Also on any size map it takes away from building cities to either block an opponent or to grab a particular resource(s). or an option to just turn it off.

 

[markusbeutel]

can this be set by map type, or map size. if you are playing a small map or an island map it becomes very annoying. Also on any size map it takes away from building cities to either block an opponent or to grab a particular resource(s). or an option to just turn it off.

I suppose it's possible - but that's not something I have time to focus on right now, but it would an interesting choice to have, for sure.

Personally, I used to prefer the 2-tile spacing that was in place when Civ V first came out, but after awhile, I found it led to more problems in the long run in the form of tightly packed ICS empires where 2-3 cities would be able to attack you while in enemy territory.

I've reprogrammed v9 from the ground up to coincide with the 3 tile spacing concerning everything from resources and yields, to city defenses and AI trades.

I think if I were to keep it as 2 tile spaces between Cities, this latest version of the mod would be much too difficult. The AI expands quicker, focuses on producing higher quality units, and makes it a priority to immediately harvest any luxury/strategic resources (including water resources). Currently I'd put the Prince level in v9 of NiGHTS on par with Emperor, (maybe Immortal depending on which AI you get), from the vanilla version of Civ V - or in other words, Prince level on Civ 4.

Having said that, while the AI is more aggressive in territory acquisition and the training of it's units, it's far more likely to engage in meaningful diplomacy. 1 for 1 trades and a minimum $300+ (upwards of $1000 if they really want them), Gold per luxury are pretty much normal. The AI also backstab less, end wars quicker when they're beat/stagnated, and generally behave how you would expect their real-life counterparts to act. If you get an early DOW, it will most likely be at the hands of Askia/Oda/Montezuma/Napoleon/Augustus/Nebuchadnezzar - and even then, you'll have most likely done something to set them off. They should no longer attack you in the middle of a Research Agreement/Declaration of Friendship. Still, I have decreased the really early DOW's, as these generally do nothing but set the AI back due to spending all of their starting turns pumping out units and not much else.

But back to gold - the economy plays a larger role in v9 as well. Research Agreements are back in the mod, and they cost quite a bit more than they do in vanilla, (150/300/500/800/1200/1600/2000), and City-State bribes have been increased accordingly. The AI, (all of them, not just some of them), also use their money on City-States far more readily

I've tried to balance the mod, (at least on Standard/Standard for now), so that you have enough money in the beginning to get by, then struggle a bit as you progress towards the medieval era, then experience a boom of sorts around the Renaissance, which should get you through the Industrial/Modern Era's, where buildings become truly powerful, dwarfing early era infrastructure. I'll be needing feedback on different gamespeeds/map sizes as my computer has difficulty, (30 second turns) getting past around 1700-1800 AD on anything other then small map sizes.

This leads me to ask: what game speeds / map sizes do people prefer to play on? Just so I know what to focus on in my test games today as I'm pretty content with where Standard/Standard is at the moment gameplay-wise.

 

[geecadwah]

Excited for the 9.0 release, I usually play on a Huge Map (epic), harder to win and more realistic Tech spacing. I was wondering if ( 2 ) of the little Mods I like are compatable.
The running shoes Mod ... initial settler gets ( 4 ) moves to facilitate more initial city options early and ...
the City State Diplomacy Mod ... let's you build Envoy's, Ambassador's etc, rather than just gold to influence C.S. diplomacy.

Thanks again for adding so many more enjoyable layers to the Civ-5 experience !!

 

[markusbeutel]

Excited for the 9.0 release, I usually play on a Huge Map (epic), harder to win and more realistic Tech spacing. I was wondering if ( 2 ) of the little Mods I like are compatable.
The running shoes Mod ... initial settler gets ( 4 ) moves to facilitate more initial city options early and ...
the City State Diplomacy Mod ... let's you build Envoy's, Ambassador's etc, rather than just gold to influence C.S. diplomacy.

Thanks again for adding so many more enjoyable layers to the Civ-5 experience !!

The running shoes mod will probably work, unfortunately the CSD will not, at least not in this first initial release. I had originally included it, but I want to get some feedback first on balance for the rest of the game - including any buildings/policies that affect City-States - before I add CSD entirely. You'll see some of the CSD buildings already in the game, only with different, ( albeit temporary), abilities - but full implementation will be included eventually.

 

[V. Soma]

i have not much time to play, so I play
tiny map and quick speed...

I just tell you this so maybe there more people like me, who have civ-time only in the weekends...

 

[Karantaner]

one more day to wait - I hope your version will be online right in the morning GMT

 

[warden68]

I'll be needing feedback on different gamespeeds/map sizes as my computer has difficulty, (30 second turns) getting past around 1700-1800 AD on anything other then small map sizes.

This leads me to ask: what game speeds / map sizes do people prefer to play on? Just so I know what to focus on in my test games today as I'm pretty content with where Standard/Standard is at the moment gameplay-wise.

I love the complexity of a huge map but realistically I know that I will be playing the last 3rd or even last half of the game in strategy view. That combined with wanting to actually complete a play through I tend to play mostly tiny/small and quick/standard.

 

[markusbeutel]

i have not much time to play, so I play
tiny map and quick speed...

I just tell you this so maybe there more people like me, who have civ-time only in the weekends...

I play like this too sometimes - if I only have an hour or two after work/school. And the load times are nice.

one more day to wait - I hope your version will be online right in the morning GMT

I'm going to have to go 2K Greg on this one and not give an exact time - but I can say it won't be immediately at the stroke of midnight, (I'm on pst here in Vancouver).

I love the complexity of a huge map but realistically I know that I will be playing the last 3rd or even last half of the game in strategy view. That combined with wanting to actually complete a play through I tend to play mostly tiny/small and quick/standard.

Good to know - playtesting on huge settings isn't really possible on my current computer so I'll need input from people here that like to play this style.

 

[V. Soma]

I tend to play mostly tiny/small and quick/standard.

yes, I feel that the tiny/quick and small/standard pairings are nice to play

 

[thio]

I agree, loved to play huge maps in older civ versions, but Civ V is just too slow. Even on Standard it can take quite a few minutes to finish an endgame turn, and i find myself often stopping at a point where i think "i won".

That reminds me.. any chance of a GG mechanism?^^
Where everyone surrenders when they really don't have a chance anymore..

 

[markusbeutel]

I agree, loved to play huge maps in older civ versions, but Civ V is just too slow. Even on Standard it can take quite a few minutes to finish an endgame turn, and i find myself often stopping at a point where i think "i won".

That reminds me.. any chance of a GG mechanism?^^
Where everyone surrenders when they really don't have a chance anymore..

There will be a retire option included that will give you the win if you're ahead on points.

Just doing some final balance testing - there's a few bugs I'm also trying to get rid of. Here's a pic of the revamped Social Policies / Governments. The 10 policies from vanilla have been condensed into 7, and 2-3 sub-policies from each branch unlock forms of Government that can be adopted through Cultural Revolutions. (This policies/governments graphic screen is still a work in progress, and it - along with other art aspects of the mod - will be getting updated in the coming weeks.) We've taken a simpler approach to the art for this screen - but the policies/governments themselves offer just as deep an experience as before.

The top 6 policies for all 7 branches have either/or prereqs so you're not forced to take everything to work your way down the tree. Each tree plays better with certain playstyles, similar to vanilla Civ 5, and only 1 of the 2 or 3 bottom sub-policies on every branch is adoptable, and will cancel out it's neighbours, (just within that specific branch, not across other branches).

All Policy Branches are immediately available for adoption at the beginning of the game. Probably no more than a couple hours now until I release the beta - I need to try and get the filesize down under 10mb so I can upload it here to CivFanatics and not on some other download site. I won't release to the Mod Hub until I get some feedback here on overall stability and gameplay across different map types/game speeds.

I'll start updating the cover page over the next few days, as there's going to be a lot of explaining to do.