1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

no diplomacy after patch

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by sabinfire, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. sabinfire

    sabinfire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    I know this has been brought up before, but this is ridiculous...

    I'm trying to do an even trade with Khan for a luxury resource, and of course the AI now refuses this. Worst part, Khan has a total of 7 Ivory just laying around. With a surplus like that, who wouldn't trade some of it away?

    I hit the "What will you give me for this?" button, and for 1 of Khan's 7 Ivories, he wants from me:

    795 Gold
    Open Borders (one way)
    Gold resource
    Silk
    Pearls

    Seriously?! :mad: Who in their right minds would make a trade like that? A 2:1 luxury trade would be bad enough, but he's sitting on 7 sources of Ivory and he's trying to make a trade like that?

    On top of that, I'm getting RA requests from the AI civs where they want me to pay them a large amount of gil to sign the RA... WTF?

    The AI has no concept of a mutual beneficial trade. It seems trading and diplomacy of any kind is just not worth it anymore. I thought the game developers said they were going to release a patch that will fix diplomacy and add more layers of depth? Apparently, this is a one step forward, two steps back process...
     
  2. Perkus

    Perkus Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    316
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Agreed, this is worse than it was before the patch. I don't think I got a single 1:1 resource trade in this last game despite having plenty of "friendly" relations. Same as you, Caesar has 6 Incense and still won't trade. And they want bribes most of the time for trade agreements, too. This wasn't even particularly broken - why the heck did they muck with it?
     
  3. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    2,931
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Zagreb, Croatia
    @OP:

    Your topic name is misleading. Diplomacy still exists.

    Furthermore, AIs won't sign 1:1 trade agreements for happy resources if they're not very unhappy (-10).

    Research agreements now reflect the need of the particular civ, as well as your diplomatic relations with them.

    Obviously, trading 1:1 with an emperor, immortal, deity AI (high happy bonuses) will be difficult.
     
  4. sabinfire

    sabinfire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Semantics. Diplomacy exists but not in any real or meaningful way. "no mutually beneficial diplomacy" exists after the patch. Everything is harmful to the player and helpful to the AI.

    Not trading 1:1 on luxury resources is fine by me if the civ doesn't have a happiness problem, but that still doesn't explain why they won't part with the INSANE SURPLUS of happy resources for a reasonable exchange of other things (gold, resources, etc.)

    By the way, this is all on Prince. I usually play at Emperor but I wanted to try a new strategy so I backed down to Prince. And trading of any kind with any AI civ is not only difficult, it just plain lacks common sense. This happens with I'm on neutral or better relations. Nobody is going to trade 3 luxury resources, 795 gold, and one-way open borders just for one luxury resource that I don't even need (my happiness has been around 20-30 for some time now). No sensible intelligence (artificial or otherwise) should keep a civ sitting on 7 surplus luxury resources without trading them away for something that doesn't amount to highway robbery.

    The bottom line is there is no incentive to trade with any civs, unless I want to throw them a bone, which I could do at any point anyway.

    Clearly, the AI works on different rules than the human player. I would bet money that the AI trades with other AIs in a more straight-forward manner. I could NEVER make deals with the AI like the kind they try to make with me, regardless of difficulty level or difference in strength.
     
  5. Acidrain

    Acidrain Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    89
    Yeah maybe the AI doesn't need your offerings so badly that he would make a 1:1 trade.
     
  6. sabinfire

    sabinfire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Not offering a 1:1 trade isn't the crux of the issue here. Why won't a civ trade 1 of their 7 surplus of Ivory in a reasonable diplomatic trade. Would you pay 800 gold, three luxury resources (including non-surplus), and one-way open borders for a single luxury resource if your happiness was 20+? Why even make a proposition like that? This type of thing only hurts the diplomatic aspect of Civ.
     
  7. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    How do you know you're at neutral relations? If they're asking for that much, frankly it would seem to indicate that they hate you.

    The AI will rarely act as you are describing. Their surplus luxuries are worth 300 base to them. Your luxuries are worth 150 base, decreasing depending on your relationship. The "crazy demand" scenario is rare, in my experience.
     
  8. Acidrain

    Acidrain Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    89
    If he gives you resource you want, he would benefit you while same time he dosent need your offerings. Why he would benefit an enemy?

    Get it now?

    Or maybe he has pact of secrecy against you with someone.... lots of possibilities. Maybe he wants to attack you in future.
     
  9. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    And just to clear this up: the behavior the OP is experiencing is not because the AI "doesn't need" his luxuries. A happy AI will have that 150 base value for your luxuries. There is another trigger causing the behavior he is seeing.
     
  10. CultureManiac

    CultureManiac Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    361
    Location:
    Beijing
    I understand the AI not wanting to swap luxuries 1:1 where you get the happiness benefit and they don't need the help. But more happiness for the AI, even if they are very happy, moves them closer to another golden age, gives them a bigger buffer for invading, and can give them more culture if they have the right SP. It also smoothes over relations.

    If you can't play nice and give yourself some room to build peacefully then the only option is to think of it as another war game.
     
  11. sabinfire

    sabinfire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    I assumed I was at neutral relations because I never did anything (knowingly) to piss them off, anytime I opened the diplomatic window with them they responded in a positive tone, and in the Diplomacy Overview window there was no "HOSTILE" word next to their civ name, like there was with a different Civ I was getting snarky with.

    I didn't need the resource (I had tons of excess happiness), I just wanted to trade my surplus for another civs surplus, so we could both reap the extra +5 happiness. You can't say I would benefit and the AI would not. We would both benefit the same.

    Only trading surplus luxuries when you're at -10 happiness just seems silly to me. Sitting on 7 of the same luxury and refusing to trade seems very anti-diplomatic to me.
     
  12. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Oh, now I remember. He quite possibly had a Pact of Secrecy against you.
     
  13. sabinfire

    sabinfire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    I don't mind getting a war started once in awhile, but they tout Civ as having so many ways to win, but in reality, war is the most sensible strategy at least 9 times out of 10. Any other strategy is just going against the grain. Civ 5 feels like a dressed-up Starcraft most of the time.

    Hmm... that's possible. But I'm still not liking diplomacy post-patch. There is even less incentive to trade than before, and that's not a good thing for those of us who don't want to warmonger 100% of the time.
     
  14. Seanirl

    Seanirl U-Boat Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    Éire
    It seems mental though... if they're even slightly unhappy then 1:1 makes sense and if they're not... 1:1 gives them more Golden Ages! :(.

    Of course, maybe the extra happiness for you would be more harmful to them than not having the extra Golden Age...
     
  15. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    well you act as if there were any diplomacy before... from the day I installed this game I had long string of wars... the only time I had game without war was when I played some Archipelago map

    diplomacy was never existing in latest installation of civ series

    btw first game after patch at t60 king difficulty after settling 4th city I got DoWed by 2 AIs at once just for the sake of DoWing, since they didnt get ANY units in sight, I actually had to find them first... I wonder what the devs were thinking when they designed diplomacy in this game
     
  16. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,262
    fairly obvious

    diplomacy is better- for the robots

    they can now get good deals or nothing

    the evidence is clear- Civ5 Diplomatic Masters in the Land of the Weak
     
  17. sabinfire

    sabinfire Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    I just steam-rolled Khan into oblivion and took all his Ivory. Now I feel better. Still disappointed that diplomacy is pointless.
     
  18. John-SJ

    John-SJ Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2001
    Messages:
    63
    Location:
    Silicon Valley, USA
    My most common trade scenario is one of their excess resources for one of mine + 150 gold. So far, this has not been refused unless the AI was very angry with me.

    And last night, for the first time, an offer for a 1:1 trade was accepted by Gandhi, whom I had just met in industrial.

    Maybe there is more to the trade AI that we still do not understand?
     
  19. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    The AI in the new patch values their resources by the double of the value they value the human ones by default ... back to civ IV uneven trades ( to cover up the AI inability of calculating what is a good deal for them ) I guess :(
     
  20. Pantastic

    Pantastic King

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Messages:
    922
    That means that he hates you. AIs will routinely make 2:1 resource trades or 150g:1 resource trades if they're on good terms with you.

    Diplomacy is not easy-mode like civ4 anymore, you can't just pick a religion and give in to a couple of minor demands and be BFF with anyone.
     

Share This Page