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No Food in BFC... at all?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Lord Parkin, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Hmm, I was just playing around in World Builder having a look at some maps, and I came across this. I didn't think it was possible to have no food in the BFC... but apparently it is so?! And no, I haven't changed a thing in the World Builder, this is how it was. Settler settled on location.

    Game settings: Tectonics map type, 70% water, Noble difficulty, 18 players. I'd generated a few maps already, each time playing 1 turn in so that I could see where AI cities would be placed, then using the "Regenerate" button in the World Builder.

    :confused:

     
  2. Pir Lan Tota

    Pir Lan Tota Warlord

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    as far as I know, tectonics does not follow the civ4 rule of 1 food resource in the BFC. Besides tectonics, I dont think there is another map that does not give you atleast 1 food resource
     
  3. Julian Delphiki

    Julian Delphiki Anton's key

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    You can still have horse salami. :yumyum:
     
  4. CivalGanjaman

    CivalGanjaman Chieftain

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    Every tile can be farmed irrigated so lots food
     
  5. Dubzilla8

    Dubzilla8 Just Right of Center

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    Look at that river (drool). I love spots like that with towns and a levee. Oh mama.

    That is wild with no food though. I guess you'd have to farm a few spots and avoid using the whip too much. I'd take that start though.
     
  6. beestar

    beestar subdeity

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    Dumb question, but ... there's always food in the first BFC? I'd never noticed!
     
  7. brades

    brades Warlord

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    Thats a pretty good start nonetheless, talk about a monster bureaucracy capital. And financial too.
     
  8. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    A great city, but bad capitol. Getting the first worker out will be painful. Overall growth will be tedious, and early production, abysmal. Btu once it gets going, awesome :)
     
  9. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Obviously I was referring to food resources, but I'll just point that out in case you were actually being serious. ;)

    The whole point about a start like this is that in the early game, it would take absolutely forever to get up and running, due to the lack of anything which gives more than +2 food per turn. That's one slow-growing capital, with low production (because you can't really afford to work the hills either), and the whip is going to be a pain with such low food.

    Without a food resource, this starting location is abysmal to me. I once had a lone plains-cow as a starting food resource and I thought that was bad, but this... this is atrocious!

    You're kidding, right? This isn't a great site as a city either, especially since founding 1N or 1S would give Pigs.
     
  10. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    I didn't say it was the best site in that situation, but once you get the pop up, all those river grasslands are quite powerful, with farms, workshops, cottages, or watermills. You can chop out a ton of infrastructure.
    As a capitol it would suck royally.
     
  11. CLST

    CLST Warlord

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    I love the way the river runs, LOL.
     
  12. brades

    brades Warlord

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    You guys talk about no early production with this city site... Look again, this city has loads of production because you have to chop a forest for any improvement, and it looks like there are 2 hills which is all you'd need early on anyhow. Horses are nothing to sneeze at either, an improved grassland horse gives something like 2f3h3c. Settling this city 1 north ot 1 south to get the pigs would make it vastly better.
     
  13. say1988

    say1988 Deity

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    Yes, horses are a great tile, and it has tons of forests. While those forests will get initial production done, they don't make fore long term production until RP.
    This is especially a problem with the capitol as it will be quite slow getting the worker out.
    The hills would provide good production in a commerce city, but I would want more for a capitol.
    I prefer high production capitols to high commerce anyways.
     
  14. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Chopping forests only gets temporary production, though. In order to get permanent production, you've got to have (1) production tiles, (2) enough food to use them, the latter of which you'll severely lack in the early game.

    The problem is, you can't see the Pigs from the starting location of the Settler. Furthermore, one usually expects that the BFC will provide at least some food by settling in place.
     
  15. Kawalimus

    Kawalimus Warlord

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    There should be some flexible resources you can use as food or production one or the other but not both!! Like horses you can ether use em for food or for production/units. And if you have two you can use one for each.
     
  16. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    You have two hills and a horse. Mine them (and pasture the horse). That will net out a decent supply of production.
    Farm two of the riverside grasslands. That will allow you to use the mines. Farm another one, but once your pop hits about 60, replace with a cottage. Cottage everything else.
    Its a nice spot. Its sort of bad, but it still can work all the tiles with just 2 farms! Its not like you NEED tons of resources...

    But you will need to build several warriors to get to pop 2 before you can use a worker... but that is lots of scouting for you!!
     
  17. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Eh? :confused:

    With only +2 food per turn, that's still not very good.

    Uh... population 60? Are we playing the same game here? :p

    It's not a nice spot. Sure, it will eventually be able to work all the tiles with just two farms, but do you have any idea how long it will take to grow to that size? It's the speed of the growth that's important, not the fact that it can eventually grow to use all its tiles - that can be said of any city. Furthermore, you DO need at least one food resource in the capital's BFC, preferably more, to make the game remotely fair. Since all of the other players get food in their capital's BFC's, it's a huge disadvantage to have a capital with a BFC without a food resource.

    What? This makes no sense. :confused:

    Once again, are we talking about the same game here? This is Civ4, not Civ3. ;)
     
  18. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    True... it takes time to upgrade. Thats why I said it's a nice spot, but sort of bad for a capital. Also, if you work only grassland farms, by pop 3 you would have +4 (? Someone check my maths?) Food per turn...

    I meant 20 ;)

    Of course... I never said it was a good CAPITAL spot... but it is a GREAT cottage spot, and if you were to settle somewhere else, then settle that city, and THEN rebuild the capital there (for the +50% commerce) then there would be INSANE commerce at size 20... just look at it!

    And if you settle there with your second city, and never whip, you would have a size 20 city (assuming you never hit your happy cap) EASILY by the early medieval... The never whip is a problem, however. Thus why you need to build pastures and mines, as ALL your hammers would come from the ground!!

    And that CAN'T be said of any city. In many Teutonics games, half the world cannot be used, unless you farm tons of plains. Tectonics is a EXTREMELY plains-spammy map, which means that MANY city sites will never get to use thier entire BFC, and thus many tiles will never be worked!

    It does pay to not build workers until pop 2 in most games of Civ 4. Normally, working a second tile would almost double your production rate.

    This is a special case, however... a second tile would only increase production by a rather mediocre 20% (Lack of resources). That said, 20% extra production, means 16% less time wasted when your city should be trying to grow... I made a mistake here... sorry about that... I haven't played a game where waiting till pop 2 would not be benificial...

    Finally, in the late game, that city would be netting a MASSIVE (if you keep the 3 farms / 3 mines idea) 119 commerce (If the last stage of cottages net 8 commerce, riverside in the late game), or if you windmill all your hills, you would get 150 commerce. In that one city alone. Base commerce (+50% with a capital and beurocracy).

    Riverside grasslands is a VERY nice thing to have, as you can see
     
  19. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    You'd have +5 at pop 3 with 3 grassland farms. (Not too tricky to work out, 2 + 1 + 1 + 1. ;) )

    The point is though, that even though you can get to a decent food yield by working 3 farms, those farms won't be giving you any hammers while you're working them. Which is why working 1 food resource (eg Pigs or Corn) along with other production tiles is far more optimal.

    I strongly disagree here. In single player games, I find it's almost always worth building a Worker first. And what's this about almost doubling your production rate? The best tiles you can work pre-improvements are 3 hammers and/or food total (eg plains-forest-hill). Assuming you're not an expansionist civ, at pop 1 you'll be able to build a worker at 4 hammers per turn (15 turns on Normal speed). If you wait until pop 2 (eg working a grassland-forest tile to grow first), your worker will be built with 5 hammers per turn (12 turns on Normal speed). Shaving 3 turns off a Worker build doesn't make up for waiting 11 turns to grow to pop 2 (on Normal speed).

    Obviously river-grassland cities are good, I'm well aware of that. However, without food a city on them is still sub-optimal.

    And of course, almost any city will be good in the late game. What I'm trying to point out is that it is the EARLY game that counts. That's why getting a capital with multiple Gems, Gold or Silver is such a huge thing - because they can be used well in the early game. Any city becomes a good city in the late game, so what counts the most are the good early game cities. ;)
     
  20. digitCruncher

    digitCruncher Emperor

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    Well... we are running in circles here. So I will repeat one last time, and then I will drop it.

    I have never said, nor implied that that city was a good capital. I never said that it was good in the very early game, either. I said (and you can quote me) it would be good for the early/mid-medieval era!!

    And of COURSE extra food resources would be better for a capital. But it isn't neccessery to have extra food for a cottage-spamming city!

    Finally... I am getting 'double', by working a second food resource, or, failing that, something like a horse, or an elephant (both which yeild many hammers, even without pastures/camps). The problem in this game, is there isn't a second resource to work, and as a result, the worker would pop out later.

    Why work a plains hill, when you can work another rice, or something, and grab the extra +1 production from food-> hammers conversion of workers?

    I am almost 100% sure that in almost every case, warrior -> warrior -> worker is faster than worker -> warrior -> warrior. Unless you can get Bronze working insanely early...
     

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