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No Leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by GiuseppeIII, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. GiuseppeIII

    GiuseppeIII The Third Giuseppe

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    Ever thought it was kind of weird that in civilization one leader survives for
    thousands of years? Well what if we made a feature where civilization leaders die
    over time maybe as a random event thats chances increase how ever long that leader was in power. When ever a leader died a new one was put into power which gave different benefits and disadvantages. Also when starting a game civs have traits instead if the leaders since right now there is no benefit of playing as a certain civ because they dont have a unique building or unit. Just an idea.
     
  2. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I've got something like this in mind, or have been tossing it around in consideration anyhow. But it'll be a while before it becomes close enough on the priority list to address, at least for me.
     
  3. Astax

    Astax Chieftain

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    It would be problematic. I suppose you would have either No leader for thousands of years (until the game pace slows down) or you would have a family, in which case the family would retain the traits associated with the leader. Then when turns become a year or two, you could have a rotation of leaders.

    Maybe even have some sort of a bonus associated with change in leadership depending on civics. If you had a dictatorship, change in leadership might cause a revolution, if the new leader cannot hold on power. But if you were using some sort of a democracy, not changing a leader often enough could lead to revolutions... etc.
     
  4. Daedwartin

    Daedwartin Chieftain

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    this sounds like a good idea!. just is it possible? Probably. C2C's forte seems to be to do what seemed impossible, and then do it all over again. theirs a good reason why this mod is pretty much the most ambitious mod made for Civ anything.
     
  5. Epona222

    Epona222 Chieftain

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    Not keen on that idea, I play games to relax and (in the case of CIV) exercise some sort of control over at least one experience in my life, free from worries about the RL economy and jobs.

    When playing Civ, I am the leader of my Civ, I am not just some token representative reacting to the leader of what is supposedly my Civ, I am supposed to be in charge. Sure if I want to delve too deep into the whole realism thing (and tbh I am not a big fan of realism in games, I get enough realism in real life thank you very much!) and "how can a leader live that long" I imagine it as a dynasty of mini-me type beings throughout the ages, but the whole point of Civ for me is that I am supposed to be the leader - not just a spectator as other leaders rise and fall.

    Let me just make this clear. I am in charge of my Civ. I am the leader. Whichever leader I pick at the beginning of the game is just an avatar representing me, they are not playing the game on my behalf, and I always have the leader name as my own when I start a game. It's not Pericles in charge, it's Epona - and I don't want myself getting usurped, that is to my mind a different game.

    Any notion of a change of leadership that is not my decision breaks the daydream that I am actually in charge. I play with me in charge, always - surely that's the whole flippin' point.
     
  6. Xoatl_169

    Xoatl_169 Chieftain

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    Thats a great idea. Could be similar to how fixed borders are introduced. At first theres no official leaders. Then there'll be dynasties with monarchies (Think Medici or Lancaster) and republics (scipio, brutus think Rome total war). Then with other forms of governments there can be leaders.
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Some good points there. I've been thinking about this for months now and have seen much of the problems suggested in this thread as being somewhat difficult to overcome if we have changing leaders.

    As a solution, I have also been thinking that, with our current development on the future line included in C2C, we could simply address this issue by suggesting that the leader is, in fact, an immortalized clone of one of the great leaders of history, sent back in time from the farthest reaches of human development to 'replay' human history entirely and see how it could have gone. You would be portrayed as a mysterious background figure rather than an upfront and visible leader for your people. It doesn't suggest why some of the traits function the same, like Charismatic for example, but it does give some basis for understanding why the leader never changes, and it may open the door for some 'secret rulership' of multiple nations as well... aka, your civ may divide but you still control each branch of your civ tree.
     
  8. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I am sorry but this is the same logic of why is Goofy a dog and Pluto a dog but one lives like a human and one lives like a dog. Its a cartoon! In our case, why do the leaders lives for thousands of years and never die? Its a video game!

    How can a city hold so many buildings in one square yet a farm takes up 1 square too? Why are the units so huge compared to the terrain? Why do troops take years to get from one tile to another? Why is no one mad when I delete a unit?

    Its an abstraction of reality and is a video game!! :hammer2:

    Note that I would be all for having lineages like in Crusader Kings where you play one generation to the next. We jut have to realize that a lot of thing don't make logical sense because its a game.
     
  9. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    I totally agree. not everything in video games makes sense, because well you know it's a game.

    I would be all in for some sort of changing leader system. Maybe that could be implemented whenever the mod team starts working on dynamic civ names since it is along the same lines.

    It could always be a option so not everyone has to use it(just like most of the features of C2C). It's a win win!
     
  10. SargontheGreat2

    SargontheGreat2 Modder

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    It could work by leaders appearing at different times in the game, at the time they took power. For example:

    China:

    Qin Shi Huang->Empress Wu->Taizong->Mao Zedong

    This might require lots of work to add LHs and keep them working with the turn times, but a cool idea
     
  11. Xanthippus

    Xanthippus Chieftain

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    I respect and understand your opinion, but no that's not the whole point. Obviously it's the point for you, but I personally like to play a game where I don't feel in control. I like it to feel as if there's a million things going on under the surface, as if real people populate the game world and make it a living, breathing community that I am attempting to influence and mold.

    But of course I know I'm not going to get that with Civ, and I can accept that as I see it like a super complex, digitised board game. I play Paradox games (like the aforementioned Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, Victoria etc.) for that sense of realism. That said, if the mod team had the capability, capacity and desire to do it, it would be a wonderful addition. You're entitled to your opinion, and if it was possible to have it as an option that would be better, but there's a difference between wanting something added/excluded/changed for balance reasons as opposed to something that is merely your personal preference.

    Just my opinion anyway! :)
     
  12. AIAndy

    AIAndy Chieftain

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    There is quite some gameplay potential in mortal leaders, dynasties and lineages.

    • Arranged marriages and all the diplomatic potential in that
    • Children with traits of different strength that depend on their parents in a kind of genetic inheritance scheme (recombination, mutation)
    • Assassinations (you might want to kill a strong leader or heir of other countries or get rid of your weak offspring, although you could also try to disinherit your own)
    • Rival claims to the throne with usurpers, ends of dynasties, claims from marriages and so on

    Of course all that would be a rather big effort in both mechanics and AI but it could add a lot of flavor and interesting strategies.

    An example in history would be the English and French history from the Hundred Year's War to the Wars of the Roses with all their disputed claims to the thrones.

    So in the end you would rather be the grey eminence behind the throne and not the leader itself. One question would be how to deal with other government types.
     
  13. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    What you are describing sounds a lot like the system in the Total War series. Which by the way I love! While I think it would be awesome, it would be difficult to work those features out with different govt types (like you said).

    What I would like to see happen would be something along the lines of a mortal leader that dies and then you can pick from a list of new leaders. The pool of leaders you can choice from would be defined by the era you are in and what cultures you have built. Obviously the deciding factor of what you choice would be the leader traits but maybe (if C2C gets more dynamic culture in the future) the culture of the leader would get a bonus during is reign.

    Example:

    Era
    Classical

    Player Cultures
    Roman
    Greeks
    Carthage

    Available Leaders
    Pericles
    Julius Caesar
    Hannibal
    etc... (can't remember them all)

    Obviously this would require more leaderheads and maybe culture resources but if I understand correctly making more leaderheads isn't all too bad just time consuming.

    On the topic of how long they would last for, well, obviously it would be kind of crazy to do it by realistic life spans. I think it would be best to just base it off of number of turns (scaled by game speed) with government civics adding or subtracting turns depending. For example: Monarchy would add turns to the reign while liberal would subtract. Also you could have a variable where the leader would die early (events) or where he was kicked out (REV).
     
  14. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @RidetheSpiral23

    What is it based on? For instance the Spanish during their Renaissance Era met the Aztecs during their Ancient/Classical Era. Are you saying that Aztecs would not be there because they are not Renaissance Era level?
     
  15. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    That is an interesting point. I hadnt really thought of it in that way. To answer quickly (on my phone) I guess it would be the same concept of the Aztecs most likely not being in classical age when Spain is in rennasiance usually in Civ anyway. Civs are normally in close to the same tech level throughout the game. Obviously it isn't historically accurate but its just a game.
     
  16. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    If you have barbarian civs then I would say this is not true at all since new civs springing up can be anywhere from prehistoric to the same level as you. And if you have revolutions on then nations that split off can be at all sorts of levels. Or even nations that were at war, got a bunch of their cities taken and are now left as vassal nations and are now way behind of the tech tree.

    In short I have never encountered a game where everyone is near the same level. Especially when you have civs isolated from each other.
     
  17. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    Alright fair enough. Well either way I think it would be best if the leader was based off of the era that that civ is in. Therefore, Montezuma could be a leader the same time as Isabella. Would that work out?
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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  19. RidetheSpiral23

    RidetheSpiral23 C2C Map Team

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    Thanks for the suggestion! I checked it out before and liked the discussion and the idea. I was just merely commenting on this thread with some input. I think the dynamic leaderheads/culture would be an excellent addition to C2C!

    I also liked somebody's suggestion (I apologize to whoever it was for not remembering) that GG should have a turn timer so that they would eventually die. Someone suggested making a "reality pack" which would be sweet! It might be a good idea for someone to start a thread to get all of these ideas together in one place?
     
  20. rightfuture

    rightfuture Chieftain

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    Changing leaders sounds like a great option!

    Leader strategy would kick in if you had to change every so often.
    This could be paired together with options in a included Realism grouped option collection.
    I hope to group such ideas in the Idea Inspiration and Organization Thread and the Idea Tracker.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=464235
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=465389

    This could roll in ideas from mod's like:
    Rhye's and Fall of Civilization
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=204
    and
    Realism Invictus
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=411799
    for those who prefer a changing style.

    Unfortunately I like a consistent strategy for my entire gameplay so I would rarely play such an option.
    I would think that many people would like to have an ongoing leader trait strategy.
     

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