1. Firaxis celebrates the "Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month", and offers a give-away of a Civ6 anthology copy (5 in total)! For all the details, please check the thread here. .
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Old World has finally been released on GOG and Steam, besides also being available in the Epic store . Come to our Old World forum and discuss with us!
    Dismiss Notice

No love for the Cree?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by ShakaKhan, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    946
    As I mentioned, I picked up R&F late (just a week ago) so I still have that youthful twinkle in my eye about some of the game additions that many have become fatigued and feel blase' about. But when looking at the various more recent tier lists (not the "it just came out, we're so stoked about it, Attack of the Clones is better than Empire" but rather the "we've had time to digest the new material and that was the worst Star Wars movie ever" lists) I'm surprised that there seems to be consensus that the Cree are middle-of-the-pack at best, and lower-tier-but-not-bottom-tier at worst.

    I'll concede that the UU is unremarkable, especially for me as I play without goodie huts. Those of you who do play with the huts should find moderate impact as they can scout more (and find more huts) without having to stop to heal, and when they do heal its more effective - not that they heal more points but healing ten points to a 20 strength unit has more survivability than healing 10 points to a 10 strength unit. Further, you frequently have to pull your scout back to help out with barb horse groups or an off-guard DoW from a neighbor, and they are much better at that. Without huts, though, I don't build scouts and I won't be building okihtcitaw. But saying that they can be just good at best because of this is like saying that the Aztecs can't be great because the Tlachtli. The shared visibility is also an underwhelming bonus and I pretty much just disregard this bonus.

    But of the three bonuses that remain, I think one is good and two are great. The good bonus is the extra route capacity and free trader at pottery with trade routes claiming tiles. Some complain that you get this before you have your second city, but I use it for a different purpose. You send the trader to the nearest city state that has a TR quest, which you probably have a free envoy with for first civ sited. One for first civ, two for this route, then add one of the ancient era civics that gives an envoy and you have both an ancient suzerein (plus era score) as well as the first tier of envoy level bonus. Also gives you extra gold and probably just one of another yield, but this early in the game that's a pretty significant boost percentage-wise. Some also complain that you have little control over which tiles you get, and I certainly wouldn't advocate selecting city location in order to get better free tiles, but they still add some free tiles, including third ring tiles, which reduces the overall tiles that you end up buying.

    The first of two great bonuses that the Cree have is the bonus food(sending city) and gold(receiving city) from pastures and camps in the receiving city. This plays right into one of my strategies that I use pretty much every game - you have a single "tradehub" city (I often rename it exactly that so I don't forget) which has your government plaza and all the districts that give hammers to internal trade routes (CH, HB, IZ, and ENC.) So this requires that the city have enough growth potential to reach size 13, has access to a coast or lake tile, and enough production to get these districts up. When you do so, each city can and does build either a CH/market or HB/LH to add a trade route and each city sends that TR to the tradehub, making each city get +2 food and +6 hammers (note: I care little about food from trade routes, food is plentiful in this game compared to civ5 and hammers are at least twice as valuable to me for this reason. If you disagree have a city with the other four districts.) I'll often save one trader slot for new cities as the +6 hammers per turn really helps them get their infrastructure online quickly. For the Cree, make your tradehub city in the city that has the most camps and pastures, in my current game there are 6 combined camps and pastures in a city near the capital. I did some re-roll, "reveal all" tests and found that most starts have a settlable spot near their start with 5 of these resources within 3 tiles and just about every one had 4. So assuming it's only four, that means that all your cities other than the tradehub get a bonus of 6 food and 6 hammers and the tradehub itself gets 4 gold per city that you own. This also means that you have a single city making absolutely ridiculous amounts of gold - there are very few percentage multipliers to gold in a single city, hopefully there will be more in the future. But applying this type of bonus to this city will yield a lot.

    The second great bonus is the UI, the mekewap. First and foremost, an improvement that adds hammers to a flat tile? Yes please. I think it's only them and Austalia that can do this. And it's two hammers pretty early. And adding just a few of these gets you housing levels that everyone except for Kongo (and Indonesia but only on their ideal map) have to wait until the industrial age to get.

    So between the tradehub yields and the mekewap, Cree cities will have lots of high production tiles in almost all cities and a strong baseline production. They also have two of the three things needed for very large cities - nearly limitless housing and abundant food. If they just prioritize amenities they can have very large cities working almost exclusively mid to high production tiles.

    The complaints that I hear:
    -"Mekewaps interfere with farming adjacencies and district adjacencies" - then don't build them there. Having a prerequisite of just any luxury or bonus resource means that they can be built in many locations, and while the restriction of not being next to each other may make you want to place them in spots where they get the biggest bonus, I prefer to try to place them so flat tiles have MW and hill tiles have mines.

    "the trader comes too early, you don't have another city yet" - like I said, trade with a city state or another civ then. Even if you can't use this for the ancient era suzerein, it's still bonus gold and other yields. By the time that route finishes, you'll have your second city,.

    "Right before R&F came out, we realized just how powerful chopping/harvesting was, and now it's even better with Magnus. The Cree make you either decide between using this power or getting the Cree bonus." - there is some truth to this, but tile feature chops (forest, rainforest, marsh) are still on the table, and some bonus resources can still be harvested with little to no impact on the Cree bonuses (namely food-based resources, minable resources and resources that are adjacent.) This leaves quite a bit to please the chop happy and still take full or nearly full advantage of the Cree ability.

    "They don't have any bonus that helps a specific victory condition." - This one confuses me because most tier lists have the S tier as civs that have major advantages towards multiple VCs, the A tier as civs that have major bonuses towards just one VC, and the B tier as civs that have minor bonuses towards multiple VCs (which is where most list the Cree, although some rank them lower.) From my experience, there are two major yields, science and production, and one minor yield, gold, that allow you to rofl-stomp through the game if you can amass sick amounts of them. Science means you can win a space game for obvious reasons, dom games because you have more powerful units, culture games for earlier access to key techs (which are arguably more impactful than key civics) and religion because, well, you just can. extreme levels of production mean you can build more stuff for... whatever you need to win. Gold means you can buy whatever you need to win ( a similar but IMO weaker arguement could be made for faith.) Looking at them independently and nearly exclusive of each other - very high science with little gold or production is a rough time, you can access stronger stuff but can't get it out quickly enough and are vulnerable to someone you're way ahead of swooping in and taking what you have. Very high production or gold but very low science means your units (or buildings, etc.) will be outclassed but can still win through attrition, which is why I value hammers more than any other yield. The Cree have the ability to make very high production and supplement it with very high gold which allows you to build and buy whatever you need to win.Civs like Rome and Australia also don't get much in the way of bonuses that are specific to the victory conditions, but its acknowledged that their bonuses help them win any VC, and I feel similarly about the Cree.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're the best civ in the game. That distinction is quite debatable and I feel that either Aztec Nubia, Persia or Australia get that nod, unless you allow specific map conditions to be selected for the game in which Indonesia on islands with abundant resources is unequaled. But seeing where most people rank them, among civs that they are much better than and behind civs that you could make the argument of at least being their equal, I think some people may need to boot up a game with them.
     
  2. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,349
    Cree is solid A- or B+, but below S.

    They're kinda like the Incans, but with a slightly better UI, and significantly worse UU.
     
  3. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    7,253
    Location:
    Climbing Kero Fin
    I'd have thought most people would rate them middle-to-low upper tier. One of the best civs without a specific focus. Most of the civs that get rated top tier are warmongers or very good at 1 victory type. Australia is the only all rounder civ that seems to get rated top tier.
     
  4. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2019
    Messages:
    365
    Also, “tier lists” are fairly subjective depending on what you are looking to achieve in the game.

    Since all Civs can win (I’ve seen Georgia win on Deity), I’m assuming we’re discussing a “Deity darling” tier list for Civs who can win on the setting the quickest, safest or more efficient. However, the way that Deity is set up means that domination (or at the very least early to mid domination) is almost required, so the warmonger Civs tend to find themselves highest. And those with a specific focus.

    However, some people might prefer Civs who promote interesting or thematic gameplay, or represent their Civs historical significance very well. In which case a tier list would look pretty different (e.g you could make a case of or Korea being a top tier Deity darling and a bottom tier interesting/thematic Civ, since her bonuses are binary and flat. So powerful, but boring to some people).

    Sorry for the ramble, I just always think it’s an important distinction to make. I tend to play multiplayer but when I’m up against the AI, I usually go for Emperor or Immortal, so the Civs I personally rate would look very different.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t worry too much if some folks say a particular Civ isn’t amazing, because if they resonate with you - you would be amazed at how effective you can make a Civ with a bit of dedication. (As evidenced by your in-depth review of the Cree!)

    Now... Tamar buffs plz.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    Karmah, ShakaKhan and Victoria like this.
  5. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,870
    Location:
    Toronto
    They lack that dominant early UU, or obviously dominant early rush strategy, which makes them not able to compete with Aztec, Scythia, Sumeria, etc...

    But of the next batch of civs, they're definitely a very solid competitor otherwise. As mentioned, they have a UI that early on, is competitive with mines in terms of production, yet also provides housing, and late game while it doesn't gain the 3rd hammer, gains extra housing (which is undocumented as far as I can tell), and more gold or food. Their trade routes can really go crazy in food - I mean, it's not hard to get 3-4 base food from a trade route, another +4 for nearby pastures, and then you can even throw the Magnus trader bonus in that city and now your internal routes are getting like +10 food, without even the late game policy card. Which, combined with the excess housing from Mekewaps, means they can really make some huge cities if you can find the amenities. And with every flat tile able to be turned into a mine, they don't lack for production.

    They lack a direct science, culture, or faith bonus, but with the food and production they get, I won't complain. Solid upper tier civ, to me, ideal to play as a builder game. Grab the land you need, improve it up, keep your routes internal for max bonuses, and then you're going to have more than enough production in the middle-late game to pursue whatever VC you want.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  6. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,176
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Cree are A tier. They can dominate with gold and growth very easily. There are still S tier civs above them, though.
     
  7. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2017
    Messages:
    470
    Gender:
    Male
    The civilization that are considered powerfull are the early warmonger civilization. Allow Egypt to build Heavy Chariot and it's top tiers. As long that the Cree are not an early warmongerng civilization, it is not a top tiers... yet.

    The Cree can have populous city with the Mekewap that add 2 Housing, and Poundmaker ability that allow to have Food with Trade Route. They are better than India in that case. For example, if your city have 2 Camps, 2 Pastures, Magnus with Surplus Logistic, the Governement Plaza, and 2 others districts that add 1 Food and 1 Production, that is a 9 Food / 3 Production / 4 Gold internal Trade Route. That is really good way to allow an early quick growth.

    The Cree have an early economy by the bonus Trade Route, and the fact that you will buy less tiles in average. The Mekewap is wonderful, +2 Production and +2 Housing make it the best unique land improvement.

    The Okihtcitaw may be underwhelming. It's a 3 Movement Warior with extra Promotion but that can't take barbarian outpost easily. But they will get better is Gathering Storm. The Cree can go for full Exploration with the Okihtcitaw and then upgrade into Skirmisher and go to war, probably not that far away from that +20 CS promotion.

    The Cree are not bottom tiers, but clearly in the higher level.

    Tamar can have an indirect buff like Catherine de Medici add by making diplomatic visibility better. The Loyalty game seems to be a thing in Gathering Storm but Tamar will be in Golden Age most of the time, making harder to flip her cities. Furthermore, Tamar can secure the suzeraintety of many city states that allow her to gain Diplomatic Favor indirectly. Maybe we will have some surprise like a more balanced Khevsur that can be upgraded from the Warrior / Swordsman, or maybe he doesn't need strategic ressource or Military Tactics will not be a leaf tech anymore.
    Well, not enough to make her great, but enough to make Georgia more enjoyable. The Tsikhe is still a joke, except if they manage to do something great like garrison unit fully heal in the turn, or 2 attacks of the city with the Tsikhe, or 3-tiles range attack of the city or you can build the Tsikhe right away without the need to build earlier walls and gain automatically the ancient / medieval wall. Well something to make actually hard to take Georgian cities.
     
    sonicmyst likes this.
  8. playshogi

    playshogi Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,479
    An indirect edge of the Cree is having an ancient era UU and UI. The era points for these two makes it easier to get a classical golden age
     
  9. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    260
    The Cree are in a great position for GS as their bonuses and UU will become more valuable.

    Civs with early food or housing bonuses through trade/UI/ etc. could reap more earlier with Pinagla's new +1culture/science per pop.

    The recon line will get skirmishers @ machinery which significantly increases the value their UU. The largest fault with the Okihtcitaw was their lack of upgrade till rifling.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  10. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    2,176
    Location:
    New Zealand
    The Cree also generate the most gold, by far, in R&F. Mali will most likely take this title in GS, though.
     
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,870
    Location:
    Toronto
    Classical golden age is so tough to get, though. My last game as the Cree, I literally started 2 tiles away from a natural wonder, and yet missed the golden age by 1 point. And because early on I find I'm hardly ever struggling for loyalty, I'd much rather get a classical dark age and go heroic after that.
     
    JimGrumpypants and Kmart_Elvis like this.
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    3,448
    The Cree could go from a good Civ to an awesomely fun and flavourful Civ with one small change: let the Cree start the game with a free recon unit in addition to their warrior and settler.

    That offsets the additional cost of their UU (which currently makes them worse at exploring, not better, because it takes them longer to get a scout out), would make them a bit more unique (the only other Civ starting with a UU are the Aztec), would synergise with their abilities (letting them find other Civs and city states for trade routes earlier), and would be a chance to show new players the benefits of early scouting.

    Come on FXS. This is a no-brainer.
     
    679x, KayAU and Kmart_Elvis like this.
  13. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    529
    Cree fall into that awkward spot where they are neither overpowered and easy to win with, nor gimped and tricky to win with, nor specialized and memey to screw around with, nor blessed with a bonus that leads to yield screenshots for reddit.

    Basically they're fine. Good not great. Standard middle management types.

    I honestly don't think I've ever finished a game with them, kind of been delaying all that until GS. Maybe the changes there with alliances and such will give them a chance to pop a little.
     
  14. Isengardtom

    Isengardtom Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Antwerp, Belgium
    Yeah but classical golden age is good if you want to secure a religion.

    Otherwise I agree, try for heroic medieval. Worst is classical normal age
     
  15. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,251
    Gender:
    Male
    I've never heard of anyone saying the Cree were anything but good, though. I guess their UU should be cheaper, but that's it.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  16. Isengardtom

    Isengardtom Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Antwerp, Belgium
    Yeah I think they’re great too

    Maybe it’s because they’re pretty all round and not geared towards a specific victory. Some people might end up losing focus on the victory.
     
    IvoryPavane likes this.
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    11,879
    I have only played them twice but have no desire to again because the food n housing game is not mine. I did not find their gold game great. Just OK. For gold in general, because I sell everything for GPT in a game I may get 15 GPT early with a civ amd 20 GPT for the Cree. The pottery trade route is nice.
    Certainly with GS civs with food growth have better amenities that will be interesting but If I take Lautro for example, that UI is just so much stronger and reliable. Lots of civs get district discounts which are really nice as they are not gold based.
    The description of how to use them at the top is quite a specific scenario and to me limits their strategy while a lot of civscan be used more flexibly. Equally they are not rubbish either, I would say they are accurately placed in the middle.
    I think Pingala will buff them but buffs many other similarly.
     
  18. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,469
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I'm actually playing them right now. It's kind of nice to finish the rise and fall expansion with a r&f civ.

    I consider them very fun and fairly strong, certainly not S tier, I agree there. The music alone is enough reason to like them. I like their color as well. I'm still finding places for farming triangles and even had a spot for a +6/12 industrial zone.
     
    BackseatTyrant likes this.
  19. Ondolindë

    Ondolindë Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    1,180
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    La Paz, Bolivia
    They’re truly enjoyable in every way and very strong. They were my first choice when R&F came out, one of my favorite all around and now I feel like playing them as my last Civ before GS comes out! I won’t finish, but it will be fun. I’ll of course look forward to playing them with GS.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  20. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    660
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Okihtcitaw are really good in MP where they are equal to warriors. Use a build order of builder - okie - okie... and rush a civ. If they didn't build units you can either kill them or get your scouts to level 3. Try it in SP with prince difficulty.
     

Share This Page