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No love for the Cree?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by ShakaKhan, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. AmtrakQuebec

    AmtrakQuebec Chieftain

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    You know that place by the other place...
    Cree are the best runaway civ... in my experience, which, as some may know is considerable :p
     
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  2. DougalDLL

    DougalDLL Chieftain

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    So, about the Cree unique unit... :)

    I had always overlooked the Cree but now I'm trying to play with them. I didn't realize how good the Mekewap was. And the other bonuses seem to lend themselves to working together more than I had first thought.

    One challenge I'm looking at is trying to figure out what to do with the Cree unique unit. I can see why other people have commented on it. I tried a start where I didn't focus on it enough and I felt like I wasted one of my Civ's advantages. I tried a start where I instead focused on it a lot more and tried to use it aggressively as soon as possible and that didn't seem to work well either. While tougher than a normal scout, it still seemed hard to gain experience and my Okihtcitaw spent a lot of their time healing instead of earning XP..

    So far, this time around I'm trying to build extra Okihtcitaw—when convenient but before they obsolete—just for some free promotions for the recon line to enjoy throughout the course of my game. That's OK, I guess, BUT it feels like I should be able to do more with them. If I could get a bunch to the Ambush promotion, that would be really good, but that seems like no easy feat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Cree UU is worse than a normal scout.

    Scouts are great units because they are cheap, faster and have ZOC.

    Cree UU is faster out the gate because of its promotion, but that’s trivial because the first promotion is so easy to get. The quid pro quo is that it’s expensive, so building one at the start slows you down (meaning you’ll actually get less first meets and goody huts) and you can’t grab them quickly later in the game.

    The only real upside to the UU is early era score and you might get a free one from a goody hut.

    I’ve said it before on this thread - Cree should start with a free recon unit. It would solve all the problems of the UU’s cost and make the Cree much more interesting.
     
  4. Pietato

    Pietato Warlord

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    Yeah, the UU cost is annoying. If you are building scouts, it is for discovering CSes first.
     
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  5. DougalDLL

    DougalDLL Chieftain

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    Yeah, I've seen the production cost for Okihtcitaw as nothing but a disadvantage for getting recon units out at the beginning, maybe meeting city states first or grabbing a few tribal villages. It just makes it harder because every turn counts for that at that point. Starting with one would be nice, or having regular scout production costs, or some small tweak would be nice. I agree.


    So, I'm currently getting a few of the UU to pass a few free promotions along as I upgrade the recon line through the game... That's OK as a small bonus, I guess? Having units upgrade to Skirmishers that already have at least one, perhaps two promotions by that point (depending on how much XP they've gained) is nice. I guess..

    But it's a unique unit. It feels like you ought to be able to do more with it.
    The Ambush promotion seems very far away in terms of XP to imagine that most Okihtcitaw will get it before becoming obsolete.

    I'm just new to playing this civ. I thought I'd throw the thought out there. :)
     
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Any UU that you have to hard build is a bit weaker overall as a result. If that unit also has an increased production cost then the disadvantage is magnified.

    Even the infamous War Cart is at a slight disadvantage because it has to be hard built (compare Pitiati archers which you can upgrade via Slingers).

    Hard built and or more expensive units are fine if you get something for your trouble. Varu are a good example, because they buff other units. Redcoats are okay because they are so punchy, and by the time you unlock them can be bought with gold and supported by Cav. Egypt Chariot Archers are an edge case, because they are strong and fast, being ranged they can support other (cheaper) units.

    A good reference point for the Cree are Aztec Warriors. These guys are also more expensive and need to be hard built, but it’s fine because you get one for free and they’re better than a normal warrior. With the Cree, you don’t get one for free so have to absorb the additional cost, and are “worse” because by getting built later they explore less.

    Honestly. I think giving them a free starting recon is a no brainer.
     
  7. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan Chieftain

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    I wouldn't be too concerned with this. I think of the Cree UU similarly to the Aztec UB - neither are very good, but the fact that just one of the advantages that a civ has isn't very good doesn't mean that the rest of their bonuses collectively can't make the civ a top tier choice. And yes, I do see the difference as the Aztec UB doesn't actually make anything worse whereas the Cree's bonus prevents them from having a unit that functions as a scout for the price of a scout.

    So yeah, you may want to build fewer scouts and have more of your scouting be done by warriors, which will give them experience and promote the units which will be part of your conquering horde. Or maybe you have to wait a little longer for the scouts to come out, which may make you miss some huts (I don't play with huts which is why this penalty doesn't really bother me) but their doubled strength and free promotion may allow them to spend more time scouting and less time healing which may make you hit some huts that you'd otherwise get beaten to. Or just do as I do and explore without scouts altogether. Any way you look at it, the UU is a weak bonus at best- again, just like the tlachtli.

    But their other bonuses collectively? good at worst, IMO one of the best:

    -shared visibility with alliances? I just don't care about this. but again, can't hurt you and can only benefit you in certain strange circumstances.

    -a few free tiles including third ring tiles? not game changing but helpful, if minor, in all situations and strategies.

    -a single extra trade route capacity? minor. but the fact that it comes with what could be your very first tech discovery and you get the trader for free as well can be quite impactful, especially if there's a CS nearby that gives you an extra hammer - during a stage in the game where your total hammers per turn is likely still in the single digits. This could also be viewed as at least partially compensating for the extra cost of the UU and either way can really get the super early game rolling.

    -unless they changed this with GS where it no longer impacts internal trade routes, getting extra food and, more importantly, gold from all your trade routes to cities with pastures or camps is incredibly, incredibly good. What I do is find which of my cities has the most camps and pastures, then build all the hammer-increasing districts in that city (CH, HB, ENC, IZ, and GOV - or if you prefer food over production do the other four) and send a TR from each of my cities to that city. Each of these TR's will yield 2 food +1 for each camp/pasture, 6 production, and one gold per each production or camp, and then you can add triangular trade on top of that. I've had games where all cities except the destination city get bonuses of 8F/6P/10G/1F. Very good.

    -a unique improvement that adds two production and two housing early (CS), that can be applied to one of the otherwise very low value tiles of non-riverside flat grassland? remarkable. Only the Cree and Australia can do this. situationally adding extra gold and food for icing on the cake.

    So even though the UU is a minor advantage at best and a detriment at worst, the other bonuses collectively make them pretty good.

    -

    -
     
  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I think the difference with the Aztec UB is that, in terms of feel or roleplaying, you do want to be building scouts as the Cree and then exploring far and wide.

    They are a perfectly strong Civ without the scout. They don’t need it improved for balance, really. But it’s just the wrong place to hamstring this particular Civ.

    Aztec’s UB is just pure flavour and not core to their design at all. It’s a good UB overall. Nothing missed by it being not that great. If you build one, that’s plenty.

    Cree’s UU is more like the SeaDog. It’s a UU that is quite close to the core gameplay of the Civ, but just doesn’t work right*.

    (*yes, I know the SeaDog works and is actually a reasonably good unit. It still sucks. You get Naval units which don’t benefit from you RND movement bonus, and the UU itself is no stronger than a normal Pirate Ship. And England is meant to be this epic Naval Civ? Groan.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  9. DougalDLL

    DougalDLL Chieftain

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    Yeah, what made me decide to try the Cree was reading about the Mekewap. A fairly flexible tile for placement (needs luxury or bonus resources) that adds housing and production (+some other yields) and can even be placed on some less-than-desirable locations to make a city more productive?
     
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  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It is.
    The thing that makes it epic is double admirals and the Mausoleum. Most notable is the fleet Amanda admirals but nelson is their secret buff. The two loyalty admirals make Lanning on -20 shores fine and two free upgrades can be used both early and late for different great effects. They also really strengthen your golden ages as long as you attack with them. Even the useless ones are not, they make for immortal scouts and pickets. I feel the double admirals are underrated.
     
  11. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Not underated by me. The admirals are very strong and don't require any "on another continent" rubbish. They're also good for Era score.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    But what They am saying is these admirals do turn England into a strong naval civ. 2 fleets and Amanda’s,
    The ability to have an early frigate Amanda with +1 range alone is frightening.
    For ships to flank at +4 means you have very strong attacks.
    ... and you have the admirals... at +2 movement and +5 combat, the opposition does not.
    +2 admirals is the RNDY’s best effect.
     
  13. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Victoria I'm not disagreeing with you, am I? Hmm. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well.

    England are a reasonably strong Naval domination Civ. Probably not the strongest, but yes, they're okay. Yes, extra admirals are strong and they have good retirement bonuses and provide other benefits. And it's really more than double admirals in a way, because RND is really cheap - it's half price and comes with a free units which makes it cheaper again, so you can build more harbours than everyone else and so get even more admirals. England can also have lots of naval units via Pax B and Sea Dog, which is good because you'll have lots of admirals. And more units mean more flanking.

    When I was complaining about England not being or feeling "epic", other than being a bit flippant, what I meant was two things.

    First, their abilities don't hang together well. Yeah, the Sea Dog benefits from Admirals (which may be why the Sea Dog doesn't actually get any inherent CS bonus), but it also gets you units that don't benefit from the RND which is sad. The RND movement bonus is also buggy. Yeah, admirals are good, but other Civs can also get admirals even if you have more of them. And you have to research and build RNDs to get these benefits anyway, and that's not always easy. And all the free units seem inelegant - getting some from my harbour, some from my cities (but only one per continent and now unlikely to be my unique Melee unit) and some more from my pirate ship, but I need to stack that with an Admiral and or form a Corps, and sort of some units from having extra coal but coal doesn't help with Frigates... it's a mess.

    Strong? Yeah, I guess. Coherent? No, not really.

    Second, I don't think they're as strong as other Civs at Naval stuff. Netherlands seems stronger to me just by virtue of having a really powerful Frigate. I mean, I guess one AI controlled super Frigate v England's shed load of naval units and admirals and admiral generated armadas is going to be an England victory, but I could basically do the same thing as Netherlands by running Harbour projects and building the Venetian Aresenal. And I'd still have a kick butt super Frigate. Or I could play Indonesia and murder England before it got to Harbours.

    If you still think I'm underselling England's naval prowess and or fun factor, then okay. I've clearly not played around with them enough and need to experiment a bit more. And if you're saying England are a top tier Naval Power in Civ, then I've really got the wrong end of the stick and will have another look.

    To be clear, my view is not that England are "weak". I thought they stopped being fun in RnF. I think they're now okay in GS in terms of fun, although some abilities feel more cute than impactful, some Civs do what they do better (which is not a big deal by itself) and they still feel a bit incoherent.

    Half price Harbours, free ships and extra admirals are not to be sniffed at. I'm just not losing my mind over them either.

    (And sorry for the wall of text.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  14. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan Chieftain

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    Okay, I get that. It's now been a while since I played the Cree but when I did (and when I started this thread), it was shortly after I picked up R&F, which was quite late since I had qualms about how some of the mechanics would work (have another dead thread on that.) As such, others here had already broken down the R&F game quite a bit, and while researching the expansion, I was surprised as most tier lists had them as a middle of the pack civ. I thought their bonuses were great on paper and then lived up to my high expectations in practice. So I was looking at the game from a very closed perspective of game mechanics over role-play.

    @Victoria - Yeah, I've recently gained quite a bit of respect for the Mausoleum and am currently in an England game that's headed to domination. My question is do ALL of the great admiral bonuses get doubled when you click them a second time? I noticed that you indeed get a second free ship from the admirals that grant it, two fleet/armadas from the ones who give that, and you get two "deposits" of gold from the ones that do that. But do you also get:

    a.) double the percentage bonus to plunder yields from the admirals that give that bonus? That would be quite a bit of gold, and if you do so while running the military policy card that doubles the appropriate plunder can be insane gold.

    b.) double (so 50%) reduction in war weariness from Lisboa? If so, when you do so and run the two -25% wear weariness cards, do you then completely remove war weariness? Kind of takes the wind out of Alexander's sails if that's the case (although slotting two policy cards is quite an investment to do so.)
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yes and yes. Nelson is my favourite, you get +3 per flank attack with only one charge but 2 gives you a possible +20 flanking which is enough to deal with higher tech ships.

    The double plunder is pointless compared to pillaging which has ruined such an admiral.
    I literally just used a sea dog to pillage an aqueduct for 800 gold... if I had done a coastal raid it would have been 50 gold.
     
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  16. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    The Cree are my #1. Their unique advantages play into my play style and general strategy, so I'm a big fan. I've played many other civs, but I keep coming back to the Cree as my favorite.
     
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  17. Pietato

    Pietato Warlord

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    Yeah, Dido is fun.
     
  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Dido makes me wish England just had flat %production bonuses to building Naval and maybe land units instead of all these free by units. The free units all feel a bit silly although less silly than RnF.
     
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  19. MonkeyPaw

    MonkeyPaw Chieftain

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    The Cree are a fun Civ for players who like to play the map. You're not just looking for resources to settle near, you're looking for patterns and figuring out where to settle and how to space out Mekewaps.
     
  20. Jkchart

    Jkchart Chieftain

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    Cree is a wonderful civ. I agree. Believe it or not, I won a renaissance religious victory with these guys.

    First of all, let's look at Nihithaw, the civ ability.
    -Extra trader capacity and free trader with Pottery. This is nice because a free trader means faster development/earlier extra gold, and you don't have to waste production or gold on acquiring a trader. Nice little bonus. But the fact that traders can claim tiles near your cities is wonderful. If you space your cities well enough and run lots of internal trade routes, you will always have connected cities with roads, and you don't have to spend culture or money acquiring a number of tiles. I can see why this would seem on the more "underwhelming" side, but it's actually quite useful since we all know claimed land to develop is king.

    Next: Okhichitaw.
    -This is a scout with the base strength of a warrior and a free promotion. This is better than it looks - I started next to an expansive rainforest, and I built three of these guys pretty fast all with the extra rainforest movement promotion. My other side was blocked by mountains, so barbarians spawned in the rainforest. The Okhitchitaw ganged up on each camp unhampered by the wooded terrain. Wonderful raiding and defensive units, in addition to their scouting capabilities. The biggest downside is the cost of the units.

    Mekewap:
    -One of the most powerful improvements in the game. You can build these guys just about anywhere to get great tiles yielding production, food, and gold. All three basic resources. Early to grab. Great stuff here.

    Favorable Terms:
    -Shared visibility on every alliance type. Doesn't sound useful? Are you sure? Because that's intel on 5 different players globally and allows you to explore the world without having to ever go too far off of your continent. No one else can do this with all of their alliances - only the military alliance. I used this to great effect so I could find all of the cities I still needed to win religiously. Also, building lots of cities with camps and pastures gives you extra gold for prosperous cities (trade routes sent to you will provide gold for each of these in your city), and sending trade routes to cities with these improvements makes the cities larger (extra food when sent to a city with lots of camps and pastures). These are great to send to allies.

    All in all, a strong builder/generalist civ that can do whatever it pleases. Loved playing them.
     
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