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[NFP] No Mechanism for Civs that lag Behind

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Oct 28, 2020.

  1. civac

    civac Warlord

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    The asymptotic upper bound for the civilisational growth curve in modern civ games is quadratic due to map dimensions. Only older civ games (definitely SMAC, I think also Civ2, Civ3) have exponential growth as they have mechanisms that allow settlers to move arbitrarily far in a single turn even into unclaimed territory.

    What does this add to the conversation? Nothing. Just some drive-by smartassery. :coffee:
     
  2. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Prince

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    I thought Alliances were how you caught up. If you can't conquer them, benefit from their advancement. Also Spies, but I'm getting real tired of my Spy being caught and killed on their first mission.

    Any catch-up mechanism will be discovered quickly and abused thoroughly. We are just going to have to settle for outsmarting the AI to catch-up, building military when they are building Wonders, Wonders when they are building defenses, defenses when they are building military.
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Well, I think spies mainly have 2 uses,

    1: to gain sight, they really provide good vision.

    2: Listening post for the +3 combat strength on military and religious units. This is strong, stronger than all other missions. Instantly effective, don't need to wait a lot of turns, 100% success, don't need to worry about safety. +3 strength, all your units gain half a GG, including religious ones. Powerful.

    Compared with Listening Post, The power of other missions look like jokes.
     
  4. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Catching up is more for the AI than the human- it’s a very common complaint on the forum that humans overtake the AI too strongly.

    You can also design systems that cannot be abused by making sure you are never giving players any hard yields or boosts- for example, granting someone +50% research rate on a tech vs granting half the tech via eureka.

    Also, as has been alluded to here, in an MP setting, if one player gets an advantage- not only does the game quickly become impossible for him to lose, it’s impossible for the other players to win. Catch up mechanics try to help at least keep all the other players in the game with a long shot chance.
    But personally the best solution is one that makes it very hard to open up a huge and ever expanding lead in the first place.
     
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  5. kryat

    kryat King

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    The dramatic age is good, but not perfect. I’ve long thought that there needs to be more cost to running a bigger empire in terms of loyalty. Civil wars should be more likely when you hit high numbers of cities and aren’t keeping them happy. Dramatic ages telegraph this just a little too much in my opinion. It’d be better if there wasn’t a countdown clock telling you that you might want an army standing by. And also if some of your army had the potential to revolt with your cities.

    The amenity rebalance helped a little, but I think it’s be better if luxuries didn’t count as so much. That’s actually one of the design problems in that an expanding empire is not likely to run into amenity problems because you’ll find new luxuries at about the same rate as you conquer. A wider geographic spread in luxuries would help.
     
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  6. schorsch_76

    schorsch_76 Chieftain

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    Good old fashioned war. If i dont know how to prevent an AI from winning, i need an army to let his science, culture output Fall down. Get enough Land from him and cut of the head (original capital) of the snake will stop IT from winning.
    :spear:

    If i am too slow to See This, i deserve to loose....

    Just my 2 cents :)
     
  7. HiRezAudio

    HiRezAudio Prince

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    I would still like to see the good old Corruption mechanic reintroduced, and fought with a new law & order district.
    There is nothing to really be done about the MP situation - some players are always going to be better than others, plain & simple.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 31, 2020
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  8. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    It's not true. It depends much of how you start, what civ you have, and how you can snowball scientifically with GP. Once i got the GS that gives +1 or +2 science to libraries, and the one that gives +4 to universities. Wow, man, i got such a science boost out of it, nobody could catch up, just because of GP.
     
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  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Incorrect, a skilled player will make up for it way before T100. There is significant value in understanding growth, overflow and the rules well, to be able to measure the situation and take the best advantage.
     
  10. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    Ah ah, that might be true in single player, but that's not the same story in multi.
     
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  11. HiRezAudio

    HiRezAudio Prince

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    I still don't agree, but here's why.
    A bad player will never make the same from even that amount of boosted research that a good player can make by knowing a better path - plus the faster those uni's & libraries get built up the faster I can plunder them.
    I will grant you the start matters greatly on Deity mode, but from Emperor down I can beat the AI on any start I roll with very, very few exceptions - but in multiplayer I will always back the better player to win regardless of start.
    Playing against the AI is an utterly different game needing different approaches to multiplayer, so what mode are you referring to please?
     
  12. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    Multiplayer. Another example, my last game i wiped Greece and Rome out with Scythia, poor them they were playing aggresively while i had 2 sources of horses in my capital (vanilla). But when I was up to take Rome itself, another civ entered the war and it ended poorly for me. He has as many units as me (Scythia : 2 horses out of one...) plus Knights. How ? Did I tell myself. I do the cripple job. He takes Rome with a single knight. I thought he was cheating and quitted. (maybe he did) Thing is, I was involved in a war with Rome, I couldn't say "ok buddy, you can have it". Plus, 3 factions were at war here, with a city center in the middle. Not easy tactically-wise. Not to mention he always attacked/retrated/upgraded first, because i had barbs to deal with in the opposite side of the world. All this managing my millions horsemen and people becoming impatient, and me unable to end my turn properly. There are billion factors like that that enter into account in multiplayer, I had 5-6 cities early but I just couldn't stop at Rome's doors, and it's a major defeat whereas i made 2 players rage-quit. (including a big fat troll that was saying "i'm noob please don't hurt me" but forward settled me, pillage a road to him (how a noob can pillage road ? Even I didn't have the idea before) and sentry a warrior nearby, insulting me names when i declared him, ha ha, funny guy, you know who you are !)
     
  13. HiRezAudio

    HiRezAudio Prince

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    An interesting case - but in Multiplayer things are even easier simply because you don't have the massive AI bonuses that are applied at Deity to Emperor (King is a level I never played so have no input worth writing on that).
    That said, I have never played a Multiplayer game - how is the difficulty level set? Are there even any AI players in MP? Probably not, thinking about it.

    I am trying to understand what your point is above though because it seems from the description the player who took Rome's Capital just took advantage of a situation for Era Score more than anything else. Rome are always a sod to come up against because they are so aggressive - but you say you had already 'wiped Greece and Rome out' so not getting the capital only sucks if you were looking for a domination victory (likely as Scythia) - if that were me, I would have gone after the 'Thief of Rome' at the next available opportunity.
    (I am not being a troll, seriously I don't get the point)
     
  14. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    He has Knights. When I saw 3-4 of them popping, I knew i couldn't get Rome neither himself. I could have wait for Cavalry, but I simply couldn't not have Rome early. I conquered only 3 cities by then. I don't know how he got Knights that early.

    My point is that with Scythia the turn timer is often limiting. Can't end my turns and many things wasted. That's a factor to take into account. Not to mention the simultaneous turns that were (as often) at my disadvantage. (first to click wins basically) That's multiplayer factors that can be very annoying.
     
  15. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    It has the "downside" of only being applicable during war (nobody actually bothers with religious combat, right?), and you can only do one such mission at a time. I know that the former doesn't really apply to you because you are probably always at war with everyone, but it's still something.
     
  16. FinalDoomsday

    FinalDoomsday Prince

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    A big problem for me is how much the AI's bonuses on higher difficulties are stacked towards the start of the game. It encourages the human player to have the best possible start in order to overcome the AI's huge starting advantage. If the player is succesful they rocket ahead and the game does nothing else for the AI for the rest of the game besides the %bucket boosts.

    Players are discouraged from playing through a rocky start because they believe they have no hope of catching up if they dont have a strong start.
     
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  17. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Emperor

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    This is a good idea. I agree that Civ 5's adding to research costs with more cities is totally immersion breaking, but adding maintenance costs makes a ton more sense conceptually.

    I think the point isn't to make winning harder for the sake of making winning harder, but to make winning more interesting and fun rather than clicking end turn a million times.

    Having said this I want to acknowledge that I don't think any 4x has truly successfully dealt with late-game snowballing (can anyone think of examples?).

    "Catch up mechanics" I think are more fun and effective if they aren't just a straight bonus. Emergencies are a good example of that idea - it's a fun event that allows catch up - though it's still weak in its present form.
     
  18. Casworon

    Casworon Prince

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    Exponential snowballing is a problem in all 4x games.

    The only way to really deal with it I think is to make the AI super sensitive to anyone even being a little bit ahead and then dogpiling them. So the players all keep each other in balance.

    This requires an AI that is good at combat however
     
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  19. civac

    civac Warlord

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    Snowballing is not a problem per se. The game needs to end with a winner declared in a reasonable timeframe. If snowballing is too easy and can be pulled off with a small initial advantage then it is a problem. But ideas like having the AI dogpile winning players are terrible. Such a system would feel unfair and gamey while civ AIs go more for a roleplay approach.

    To reduce late game slog it suffices to reduces the domination/conquest requirement. If one civ is vastly bigger and stronger than the others have it win a domination victory would having to clean up the rest of the map. If someone has 40% of the map and total population the game is over unless there exist a rival of at least comparable size.
     
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  20. Arianrhod

    Arianrhod Warlord

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    Problem is that winning is boring and takes forever.

    Either loosen the Victory conditions so the game actually ends when it's already over, or add a mechanism that allows people to actually fight the "winning" player. There's nothing fun about a victory that's just whacking "end turn" for the last two hours because you won long before that.

    I guess "have the entire world DoW you if you're winning in 30 turns" is also an option, but people generally don't like this either and it won't usually make a difference unless you're pulling a cheeky RV.
     

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