No way to defend sea trade routes

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Chilly5, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Chilly5

    Chilly5 Chieftain

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    War is not a viable option any longer.There is literally no incentive for a player to go for war mongering, especially in a water-dominated map.

    AI spam ships and manage ships better than a human player can, such that the instant a war is declared, you can expect all of your trade routes to be ripped apart.

    You can argue "well historically trade routes were the first to go in a time of war." Yes maybe that's true, but "historically" trade routes were important units to protect for this reason. Given the current game mechanics, I've sat frigates on top of my cargo ships but somehow the enemy still destroy my trade routes. The fact that my cargo ships have no vision also limits my ability to save them or protect them.

    Given how exposed trade routes are, especially to an enemy AI's navy, there needs to be some way to defend trade ships. If trade ships don't get the option to flee (like workers do when barbarians come by), then there should at least be an option to attach a military escort over the trade ship to ensure its security.

    As it stands right now I can expect 0 income from trade routes the instant a war is declared (particularly crippling as I'm playing Venice). This puts me in a tough corner, since on the world stage in the game I'm playing right now I'm behind technologically, diplomatically, and culturally. Military is the only forte my civ carries right now, but I can't fund a military if England's caravels destroy my trade routes left and right without any way for me to defend them.
     
  2. jaldaen

    jaldaen Prince

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    Yeah, it would be nice to set a naval unit to "escort" the cargo ship. The only thing I've been able to think of is counting the moves the cargo ship makes and make sure you have one ship parked at each "waypoint" for the cargo ship. Although at that point you're probably losing money on very long trade routes.
     
  3. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

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    The answer is to develop alternate sources of income. If you are solely reliant on international trade routes for your gold, you are in trouble. There are many other ways to develop your economy, so in order to survive a war and plundered international trade routes, you have other sources of income. Early on, trade routes and luxury selling are your main sources of income. After that, your internal trade routes become profitable as your population grows. I also prioritize establishing a religion and the religious tenet that provides one gold per four followers. Sometimes wonders, you probably know the drill. Diversity is the key.
     
  4. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Cargo ships are harder to defend but give you more money, food or production. I think it's balanced.

    If you know that you want to go to war, be sure to manage your trade routes accordingly. Internal routes are very easy to defend and very underrated anyway. Or routes to your closest neighbour are another possibility.

    The ability to escort cargo ships would be nice but it won't happen. Path finding and 1UPT makes it impossible to implement.
     
  5. Krakenov

    Krakenov Chieftain

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    That's not necessarily feasible for all civs though. Despite diversification, some are just too dependent on trade routes for income. In my Portugal archipelago game, the first 200 turns or so saw a good 80-90% of my income come from trade routes. I was lagging far behind heavily in nearly every field except gold and by extension military. I built up the largest navy in the game solely to secure my trade routes. Even though I was doing pretty poorly overall, having such a large navy and war chest deterred most people from messing with me. It also allowed me to start a few aggressive wars and buy out a few important City states. So yes, trade routes might be overly important, but if you maximise the profits from them you can support a navy large enough to protect them.
     
  6. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

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    Since sea trade gives you insane amounts of gold, the trade routes should really be vulnerable. But to be honest, I liked the whole "attach a military escort over the trade ship to ensure its security"-idea...
     
  7. King_Course

    King_Course Prince

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    Lesson Learned: When playing Venice, be nice to England!
     
  8. TommyVern

    TommyVern Chieftain

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    I think the real question is why is the OP trying to war monger as Venice?
     
  9. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    Although each civ has a strong suit, giving them a natural advantage tending to one victory type or another, it would be far too restrictive, if certain victory types were absolutely foreclosed to one civ versus another.
     
  10. Teagen

    Teagen Warlord

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    In a lot of cases there "isn't" any alternate source of income big enough. If you have 100g going out and 140g coming in from trade routes...what exactly do you replace that with?
     
  11. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

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    Sell luxuries
    Gold-producing wonders
    Religious tenets
    Internal trade routes
    Commerce policies

    There are many options, but my point is that you should not be overly reliant on international routes. As an alternative, protect your international trade routes.
     
  12. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    An escort mission would indeed be nice for cargo ships. But seeing how much GPT each cargo ship runs; it doesn't have to survive that long to pay for its hammer cost.
     
  13. Helmling

    Helmling Philosopher King

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    I think the caravan and cargo ship units should have hit points. Them being instantly destroyed when an enemy unit looks at them funny makes the trade route dynamic too precarious.

    When attacked, the aggressor should get gold based on how much damage he/she/it does tot he caravan and the caravan should flee home. If it can't get away fast enough, then the enemy can attack it again.

    It would at least give us a chance to defend some of these routes.
     
  14. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Correction: War is not an easy, guaranteed option anymore.

    That is good.
     
  15. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    I agree. An "escort" caravan/cargo ship function should be available.

    By moving a land or sea unit over the civilian caravan/cargo ship unit, and then choosing the move option, "escort," the two units would then move as one, until which time the player gave new orders to the 'convoy.'
     
  16. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    I have found two ways to deal with this.

    1. Short wars. I don't know if this was to prevent the always war style of G+K but it works. In G+K it was stupid to not stay at war. Once you fought of the initial onslaught you could farm experience on your ranged units for years while not really pursuing a end.

    Now I save up 1-2k early gold and go to war. I may lose 80 a turn but I should be able to achieve my objectives before cash runs out.

    2. Honor. I know some people have mentioned it in some of the policy threads but I think it will really start to pick up as people run into cash flow issues. Honor is typically my 2nd tree but I may start moving to it after a few in another and come back to finish those later. Honor has a lot of benefits and as you keep marching into the later game you start to earn a pretty good amount of gold along with having some very promoted units. Industrial units pull down 50 gold, kill 2 a turn and you are grabbing 100gpt just for doing what you were going to do anyway.
     
  17. NBAfan

    NBAfan boss

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    I find that it's pretty awesome that war can be disastrous for the economy now.
     
  18. kingchris20

    kingchris20 Wisdom Seeker

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    Something I still haven't figured out....can the AI pillage your route from anywhere on the trade line, or do they actually have to hit the cargo ship?
     
  19. Acidrain

    Acidrain Chieftain

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    To pillage a trade route, one has to move their unit to the same tile as caravan/cargo ship, then pillage trade route button appears on the unit command menu.

    I just finished a 20 hour game yesterday on standard size and type continents @ Emperor and I fought for my trade routes just fine on the sea. It's quite logical if you don't have control of the waters, then you will lose your trade routes.

    I planned long and hard before I declared war on a Civ across the sea, since I did not want to lose my trade routes either. I took complete control of the sea between us and blockaded all his cities from water before I embarked even one land unit. (it was against Denmark, I was Arabia)
     
  20. Knut_Are_M

    Knut_Are_M Prince

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    I would not recommend international trade With anyone that can potentionally backstab you. All trade caravans going to that civ is immidiatly destroyed upon war declaration.
    I would only recommend internal trade, much safer and gives you a huge production and growth.

    online most players trade internally or With city states. They try to avoid tradeing With major Powers as it is a recipe to loose all trade caravans and cargo ships.

    Playing venice means you play at a huge disatvantage in the mid game onwards.
    Only way to stay remotely competetive is finishing Commerce and build tradeposts, and take nearby cities by force.
    Trade internally where it can be protected and play the warmonger With a happiness religion. Order/Autocracy is Your friend.
     

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