No Wonders?

[Bast]

I'm trying to kick the wonder addiction and thought how about I try a game where I don't build any wonders AT ALL. This means saying no if even I find that I could build a wonder in 9 turns or something. Just saying NO.

Do you think this is a good strategy to kick the habit?

I want to try a game where I build big cities with lots of infrastructure, plenty of gold and a decent modern army.

I want to be #1 in land and population and have a big tech lead. Do you think this will be enough to put my points score ahead of everyone else without wonders?

Any leader suggestions? Obviously no Industrious leaders.

 

[popejubal]

I'm trying to kick the wonder addiction and thought how about I try a game where I don't build any wonders AT ALL. This means saying no if even I find that I could build a wonder in 9 turns or something. Just saying NO.

Do you think this is a good strategy to kick the habit?

I want to try a game where I build big cities with lots of infrastructure, plenty of gold and a decent modern army.

I want to be #1 in land and population and have a big tech lead. Do you think this will be enough to put my points score ahead of everyone else without wonders?

Any leader suggestions? Obviously no Industrious leaders.

"No World Wonders" is absolutely a great strategy. There are a few world wonders that are very helpful, depending on the size and type of map that you are playing (Great Lighthouse is a bit more helpful on Archepelago than on Pangea, I'd say). Even with the idea that some Wonders can be useful under the right circumstances, avoiding Wonders entirely has one enormous benefit: You get lots and lots of hammers that you can spend on other things instead. The National Wonders may be just fine for you to build in this game, though. National Epic and Heroic Epic in particular are especially useful to a Cottage Economy and Wall Street can be very nice if you happen to capture the Holy City of the world's dominant religion after that AI civ builds the Shrine.


I'd suggest trying either of the Romans with this strategy on Pangea. You may eventually be tempted to build Versailles to keep a lid on your city maintenance costs, but Forbidden Palace will work just as well for a lot fewer hammers. You can also just switch to State Property to avoid all distance-related maintenance costs.

Also, if you happen to get a Great Engineer, settle him in your Heroic Epic city. You'll be amazed at just how much of a difference those extra hammers make. It's like getting a free State Property Grassland Workshop. It's even better than that because you still use food to grow at the faster speed for not having an extra citizen and that settled Great Person does not count toward unhappiness or pollution.


The best part is that you still get to have wonders in your cities. You just don't have to bother to build them since the AI does it for you.

 

[MrCynical]

It's well worth trying. Helps you see exactly how much of a difference (or lack of) the wonders actually make.

 

[madscientist]

First of all if you want to resist the temptation of building wonders, you probably do not want the spiritual trait or a leade who start with mysticism. Imperialistc/Charasmatic/Agressive/Oragnized/Expansive/Protective seams the best to limit temptation. Mehmed seams like a good one, alot of cheap early building to distract you from wonders. Gilgamesh/Hammarabi/Khemer dude seam good also.

But limiting wonders seams to limit you playing the game. First there are national wonders, you still want a heroic epic and ironworks, right? Also Wonders do give benefits which should not be easily tossed aside. Also what are you going to do when you pop a great engineer???

 

[Percy]

Also what are you going to do when you pop a great engineer???

Settling him, the same as when actually building wonders ^^

 

[madscientist]

Settling him, the same as when actually building wonders ^^

Which is what I usually do now even if I am wonderspamming (which I do depending on the game and leader). The point of the post is defeating wonder addiction so it's apoint to bringout, what to do with the GE. I agree on settling him.

 

[Bast]

First of all if you want to resist the temptation of building wonders, you probably do not want the spiritual trait or a leade who start with mysticism. Imperialistc/Charasmatic/Agressive/Oragnized/Expansive/Protective seams the best to limit temptation. Mehmed seams like a good one, alot of cheap early building to distract you from wonders. Gilgamesh/Hammarabi/Khemer dude seam good also.

But limiting wonders seams to limit you playing the game. First there are national wonders, you still want a heroic epic and ironworks, right? Also Wonders do give benefits which should not be easily tossed aside. Also what are you going to do when you pop a great engineer???

No, of course I'm going to build national wonders. Can't live without Oxford University and Wall Street. But they're national and there isn't a chance that you'll be beaten to the race.

I'm not scared of being beaten to the race. More often than not I get there.

That's the problem. I spend so much time and hammers building wonders that I feel I'm neglecting other parts of the game and this is a way to improve for me.

Thanks for the suggestions but I have a no-Rome policy. Really don't like going to war early.

 

[madscientist]

No, of course I'm going to build national wonders. Can't live without Oxford University and Wall Street. But they're national and there isn't a chance that you'll be beaten to the race.

I'm not scared of being beaten to the race. More often than not I get there.

That's the problem. I spend so much time and hammers building wonders that I feel I'm neglecting other parts of the game and this is a way to improve for me.

Thanks for the suggestions but I have a no-Rome policy. Really don't like going to war early.

Actually Warlords Agustus (Not the industrious BTS version) is a decent leader to go non-agressive with. Prats make great defenders as well.

 

[futurehermit]

This is a good idea. Once you learn to play like this you can add in the occasional wonder. But going wonder-crazy is a good way to get killed at higher levels unless you are industrious + have stone/marble + have a plan in mind or are going for a strat like Obsolete's.

Focus on horizontal and vertical expansion. For horizontal you want workers and settlers early and then lots of military later. For vertical you want food surplus + hereditary rule + health resources/buildings.

Focus on economy. This means pottery > currency > col > cs > liberalism > printing press > democracy > astronomy

 

[axident]

This is a good idea. Once you learn to play like this you can add in the occasional wonder. But going wonder-crazy is a good way to get killed at higher levels unless you are industrious + have stone/marble + have a plan in mind or are going for a strat like Obsolete's.

Focus on horizontal and vertical expansion. For horizontal you want workers and settlers early and then lots of military later. For vertical you want food surplus + hereditary rule + health resources/buildings.

Focus on economy. This means pottery > currency > col > cs > liberalism > printing press > democracy > astronomy

OP: I disagree. Any absolute statement like "don't build any wonders" is dangerous, as even one counterexample disproves it.

Hermit: I agree, sort of. What's the trade-off? You can't think of it as "I can have several more units if I give up this wonder" because there is also the penalty of having another civ get that wonder instead, and that can be painful (which is why I'll blow a GE on stuff like Sistine Chapel if I'm already getting culturally pushed).

I've moved almost full-time into Emperor, on various maps, normal speed. In my playing style, some world wonders are must-haves/must-denies, some I only build with resource bonus or with GE or if I have such a huge lead and high production that I can build it fairly safely without fear of it getting poached.

Tier 1 must-haves/must-deny-to-enemies:

A. Gr Wall, Gr Library, Statue of Liberty, Mausoleum (partly for denial purposes as AIs burn their GPs for golden ages quite often, though this becomes Tier 2 if I miss the Music free GA), Pentagon, Taj Mahal, 3 Gorges Dam, and all late-game happy wonders (Broadway etc.) so you are not dependent on someone else to trade you your happiness.

B. If I plan to have a state religion (especially with AP hammer bonus), I also go for Spiral and Sankore regardless of cost.

C. Also Space Elevator if I plan to go for/deny Space Race.

Tier 2 build it if you have the resource bonus or can build it safely: everything else (including Pyramids, Parthenon).

In my current game I wasn't going to build many wonders, but I started off next to marble... I didn't bother going for Tier-2 stone wonders except Sankore and Spiral, as I also had Sistine and someone made AP and I converted to that religion and religious-building-spammed for hammers/gold/beakers/culture.

In other games where I had no marble/stone/ivory/gold, I built just Gr Library and that was it for a looong time. (Missed out on the other must-haves like Gr Wall in that game. Won anyway. So even a must-have isn't a MUST have.)

In summary:

- Some wonders are better than others.

- Be opportunistic when building wonders, especially if you have the resources for it. Don't decide before the game even starts that you won't build any wonders.

 

[madscientist]

OP: I disagree. Any absolute statement like "don't build any wonders" is dangerous, as even one counterexample disproves it.

Hermit: I agree, sort of. What's the trade-off? You can't think of it as "I can have several more units if I give up this wonder" because there is also the penalty of having another civ get that wonder instead, and that can be painful (which is why I'll blow a GE on stuff like Sistine Chapel if I'm already getting culturally pushed).

I've moved almost full-time into Emperor, on various maps, normal speed. In my playing style, some world wonders are must-haves/must-denies, some I only build with resource bonus or with GE or if I have such a huge lead and high production that I can build it fairly safely without fear of it getting poached.

Tier 1 must-haves/must-deny-to-enemies:

A. Gr Wall, Gr Library, Statue of Liberty, Mausoleum (partly for denial purposes as AIs burn their GPs for golden ages quite often, though this becomes Tier 2 if I miss the Music free GA), Pentagon, Taj Mahal, 3 Gorges Dam, Statue of Zeus (denial), and all late-game happy wonders (Broadway etc.) so you are not dependent on someone else to trade you your happiness.

B. If I plan to have a state religion (especially with AP hammer bonus), I also go for Spiral and Sankore regardless of cost.

C. Also Space Elevator if I plan to go for/deny Space Race.

Tier 2 build it if you have the resource bonus or can build it safely: everything else (including Pyramids, Parthenon).

In my current game I wasn't going to build many wonders, but I started off next to marble... I didn't bother going for stone wonders except Sankore and Spiral, as I also had Sistine and someone made AP and I converted to that religion and religious-building-spammed for hammers/gold/beakers/culture.

In other games I built just Gr Library and that was it for a looong time.

In summary:

- Some wonders are better than others.

- Be opportunistic when building wonders, especially if you have the resources for it. Don't decide before the game even starts what your strategy will be.

I agree about not limiting oneself. Other wonders that merit mention

Great lighthouse, if you start on a coast and can reasonable settle all your cities on a coast (I currently have 12 British cities, all built on the coast). 2 extra trade routes that early is powerful.

Great Library: Awesome for producing science and getting some GS faster, especially if you nailed the pyramids early.

Colossus, see great lighthouse above, especially if you get Metal casting off the oracle. And it's pretty cheap if you have copper.

 

[axident]

"No World Wonders" is absolutely a great strategy. There are a few world wonders that are very helpful, depending on the size and type of map that you are playing (Great Lighthouse is a bit more helpful on Archepelago than on Pangea, I'd say). Even with the idea that some Wonders can be useful under the right circumstances, avoiding Wonders entirely has one enormous benefit: You get lots and lots of hammers that you can spend on other things instead. The National Wonders may be just fine for you to build in this game, though. National Epic and Heroic Epic in particular are especially useful to a Cottage Economy and Wall Street can be very nice if you happen to capture the Holy City of the world's dominant religion after that AI civ builds the Shrine.


I'd suggest trying either of the Romans with this strategy on Pangea. You may eventually be tempted to build Versailles to keep a lid on your city maintenance costs, but Forbidden Palace will work just as well for a lot fewer hammers. You can also just switch to State Property to avoid all distance-related maintenance costs.

Also, if you happen to get a Great Engineer, settle him in your Heroic Epic city. You'll be amazed at just how much of a difference those extra hammers make. It's like getting a free State Property Grassland Workshop. It's even better than that because you still use food to grow at the faster speed for not having an extra citizen and that settled Great Person does not count toward unhappiness or pollution.


The best part is that you still get to have wonders in your cities. You just don't have to bother to build them since the AI does it for you.

A high concentration of wonders in 1-3 cities is worth much more than having them spread out among enemy cities that you may or may not be able to capture before the game is all but over. Concentrated wonderspam = GP farm.

 

[axident]

I agree about not limiting oneself. Other wonders that merit mention

Great lighthouse, if you start on a coast and can reasettle all your cities on a coast (I currently have 12 British cities, all built on the coast). 2 extra trade routes that early is powerful.

Great Library: Awesome for producing science and getting some GS faster, especially if you nailed the pyramids early.

Colossus, see great lighthouse above, especially if you get Metal casting off the oracle. And it's pretty cheap if you have copper.

I disagree about GrLight and Colossus unless it's a water-heavy map. I agree about Gr Library and wonder how the hell I left that off my original entry.. going back to edit.

 

[madscientist]

Well, I am near finishing chemistry and have had the great lighthouse the entire game. I am getting 6-8 commerce per extra trade route for 12 cities on the coast. That's 144-192 extra commerce before any science/financial building boost. Much more than the 2 extra scientists from the great library, not counting the GP which I agree cannot be disregarded.

The colossus I concede is not that important but it is damn cheap.

 

[axident]

Well, I am near finishing chemistry and have had the great lighthouse the entire game. I am getting 6-8 commerce per extra trade route for 12 cities on the coast. That's 144-192 extra commerce before any science/financial building boost. Much more than the 2 extra scientists from the great library, not counting the GP which I agree cannot be disregarded.

The colossus I concede is not that important but it is damn cheap.

Sounds like a water-heavy map, then. I know the power of Gr Light but sailing is early and when you are already pressed for hammers, so I would not advise to try for it unless you have lots of water and even then prepare to fail to get it if you play Emperor+.

In my experience, Colossus is easier to get on Emperor as you will have more production capacity when you get MC, but it's lamer and expires after a relatively brief time period.

 

[pigswill]

You can certainly win a game without building any world wonders and that's something worth discovering for yourself. You can still capture them of course.

 

[madscientist]

Sounds like a water-heavy map, then. I know the power of Gr Light but sailing is early and when you are already pressed for hammers, so I would not advise to try for it unless you have lots of water and even then prepare to fail to get it if you play Emperor+.

In my experience, Colossus is easier to get on Emperor as you will have more production capacity when you get MC, but it's lamer and expires after a relatively brief time period.

It's a big/little map but random continents so I think I got the snakey continent. LOT'S of land, just not much that doesn't border the ocean.

I play on Monarch in BTS, so I'll take your word it's harder to get on emporer

 

[axident]

It's a big/little map but random continents so I think I got the snakey continent. LOT'S of land, just not much that doesn't border the ocean.

I play on Monarch in BTS, so I'll take your word it's harder to get on emporer

Monarch is a whole different ballgame; you can literally soak up every wonder in the game from the get-go without too much problem if you're Industrious and have stone and marble. Without stone or marble, you might miss a few, but you'll still get most of them. GrLight has no production bonus like stone... so it's painful to get. Similar to Hanging Gardens forcing you to build a resource-boost-less aqueducts first.

 

[popejubal]

A high concentration of wonders in 1-3 cities is worth much more than having them spread out among enemy cities that you may or may not be able to capture before the game is all but over. Concentrated wonderspam = GP farm.

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say here. I think that avoiding World Wonders is a very good thing to do for a player who tends to build lots and lots of wonders. Limiting yourself to building no World Wonders at all is a good way to experience the variety that is available in Civ IV and it also helps your game in the long run because it gives you a better idea of what else is available besides Wonders. You get a better idea of what the trade off is between a World Wonder and a larger empire with a better military and more infrastructure.

This is especially true of the early Wonders where you entire empire's resources are tied up building that Wonder because your entire empire is just 1 city.

National Wonders, on the other hand, don't need to be rushed because you are not competing with anyone for that wonder. You can build it at your liesure and concentrate on your empire as a whole, only building that National Wonder when it makes sense for your empire as opposed to building it with your strongest production city as soon as it is available.

I like having National Epic in a food rich city somewhere in a Cottage empire because you get a lot more bang for your buck there than in an empire that concentrates on specialists. I also like the Heroic Epic in a strong production city for a Cottage empire for the same reason. Specialist/Farm empires don't need these two wonders as much because any of their cities can be either a GP farm or a production city as the need arises.


Also, spreading your wonders among a few cities is not such a bad thing when you consider that I was suggesting that you get these wonders by capturing AI built cities instead of by building those Wonders yourself. I'm not going to turn my nose up at a set of free wonders even if they're not in the "right" city and I'd much rather save the zillion or so hammers that it took to build these wonders than try to build them myself.

 

[axident]

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say here. I think that avoiding World Wonders is a very good thing to do for a player who tends to build lots and lots of wonders. Limiting yourself to building no World Wonders at all is a good way to experience the variety that is available in Civ IV and it also helps your game in the long run because it gives you a better idea of what else is available besides Wonders. You get a better idea of what the trade off is between a World Wonder and a larger empire with a better military and more infrastructure.

This is especially true of the early Wonders where you entire empire's resources are tied up building that Wonder because your entire empire is just 1 city.

National Wonders, on the other hand, don't need to be rushed because you are not competing with anyone for that wonder. You can build it at your liesure and concentrate on your empire as a whole, only building that National Wonder when it makes sense for your empire as opposed to building it with your strongest production city as soon as it is available.

I like having National Epic in a food rich city somewhere in a Cottage empire because you get a lot more bang for your buck there than in an empire that concentrates on specialists. I also like the Heroic Epic in a strong production city for a Cottage empire for the same reason. Specialist/Farm empires don't need these two wonders as much because any of their cities can be either a GP farm or a production city as the need arises.


Also, spreading your wonders among a few cities is not such a bad thing when you consider that I was suggesting that you get these wonders by capturing AI built cities instead of by building those Wonders yourself. I'm not going to turn my nose up at a set of free wonders even if they're not in the "right" city and I'd much rather save the zillion or so hammers that it took to build these wonders than try to build them myself.

I don't think I misunderstood your cheerleading of the no-wonders strategy, not when you wrote stuff like "No World Wonders" is absolutely a great strategy. and "Even with the idea that some Wonders can be useful under the right circumstances, avoiding Wonders entirely has one enormous benefit: You get lots and lots of hammers that you can spend on other things instead." Be careful when you use words like "absolutely." You didn't say "wonderspam people ought to try different strats sometimes" or "skipping many wonders can do you good" but were much more forceful in your view.

I'm also not saying that you shouldn't capture wonders. Who wouldn't want to? I'm just saying that one bonus of being the original builder is that you can concentrate them for more efficient GP-production. I also added that some wonders are more worth it than others, and listed my personal list. And also that it's not just a matter of wonder vs. hammers but of the benefits of denying a wonder to competitors (e.g., denying Sistine to a neighbor that's already culturally pushing you).

I didn't object at all to the characterization of National Wonders. So I'm not sure why you're bringing it up now.

By the way, I find it odd that you talk about experiencing all there is to civ and then suggesting that OP be Romans, the cheapest civ thanks to Praet-rush, and on Pangaea, the best map for Praet-rush.