Nobels for Violence

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Grendeldef, Aug 25, 2021.

  1. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Sweden it is.

    Keep in mind that the map is

    - Continents Huge, 10/30, arid - 2 main civs removed & 6 CSs added to default so the 30 CSs isn't a typo.
    - blocking ice has been removed (at least I'm fairly sure I did rather than depending on it happening naturally with the cooked map).


    Provisional roster and turn order:

    Raider
    Gren
    Vadalaz
    Beetle
    Fiddlesticks



    Rules:

    • Cap on net total GPT from AIs at 20 gpt * era. Lump sum trading allowed only to set up RAs.
    • One GS bulb allowed per era as a catch-up mechanism (i.e. to research a tech already known by at least one AI)
    • One bribe allowed per era. No DoWing to break the bribe deal
    • No one-way Open Border deals
    • No white peace bug abuse. Asking AIs for peace allowed only after 1st expo is planted to avoid white peace bug when stealing workers in the early game
    • No selling of single strategic resources for 2 gpt
    • No internal food trade routes to cities with higher population, if this is about happen during a TR the target city must be halted
    • Only way to make peace with a CS is through a peace deal with its major civ ally
    • Stealing workers from CSs allowed only if current total number of workers is less than or equal to the number of cities in the empire. No limits on stealing from major AI civs
    • GMu can be bulbed only once for any Civ

    Spoiler pix :

    C1 Gustav.jpg

     

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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  2. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    I did settle on the riverside hill by Marble for several generally workable tiles & Stone Circles and I'd still do but other than that I think it's just let's get to killing stuff.
     
  3. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Yeah, that looks like the best spot to me, unless the warrior finds something interesting in the south.
     
  4. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Shall we take the first major pow-wow @ T50 or earlier? T50 seems a bit late if/when one or more satellites have already been settled or do we rely on pace being slow enough anyway to agree on a rough plan?
    At every 50 turns seems like a solid starting plan but there's fair chance that CS, Industrial & Modern are more important milestones than a preset turn.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  5. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T20 is probably a good time to discuss city placement and first tech targets (e.g. Construction or Philo). And I guess if anyone has any specific strategies in mind for this game, now is the time to share them. My own preference is Honor or Liberty, clear the continent and then see how things go from there. Patronage is also really good with 30 CSs and the UA.

    If worker stealing goes well and we go Liberty, we could consider an early wonder, like Pyramids or Mausoleum.
     
  6. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Yea, I was going to say either the riverside hill by the Marble or the one by the Cow if there is something good to the south. I'll move the warrior SE one tile and then to one of the hills depending on what he sees. Hill/Cow does lose a Stone though.

    Are we going for DomV? Or DipV, although that will be easy with all the extra CS right? Or is VC to be determined.

    I always get mixed up by Sweden. You want DoFs but also want to be at war. I guess since clearing the continent was mentioned we're not going to have any friends at first?

    And welcome @fiddlesticks !
     
  7. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    I was & am hoping for another take on the Violent Culture issue :) To me that by default is by far the most interesting game but I don't mind Dom either. Diplo seems always the last option when everything else has failed or is about to take too long. Sci is just meh.

    As for policy tree my default as everyone knows by now is Liberty especially on these larger maps and assuming everyone has already done the Honor-GG-CS ally start it has no novelty value but if that's the only/best way to get a good religion I'm all for it. Not that I actively oppose Honor start otherwise either.
    I'd like to try Tradition/Piety hybrid at some point but there're more suitable civs for that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  8. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Ok, here we go!

    T0. Move Warrior SE and see jungle to the south. So move him east to the hill. See nothing worthwhile so move Settler to the river/hill next to the Marble.
    T1. Warrior uncovers barb camp to the east. Found our capital of Stockholm. Start Scout and Pottery.
    T2. Warrior attacks archer in the barb camp.
    T3-4. Exploring.
    T5. Pop ruin!
    T6. Scout finishes, start another. Warrior is bogged down in rough terrain, wrong way to go but had to get ruin.
    T7-8. Exploring.
    T9. Meet Jerusalem. Religious, Friendly; 30g, 8f.

    Nothing too exciting. But we were the first to meet a faith CS so we should definitely get a pantheon and hopefully religion. There is desert to the NE but only one desert tile in our cap. We do have 3 quarry tiles in our cap. But if our first expo is in the desert there is a lot of lucrative tiles there and desert folklore would be powerful.

    Spoiler T10 Map :
    T10 Map.jpg
     

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  9. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    It looks like we can get at least two decent desert cities there, so DF seems slightly more powerful to me, and I think it's the more important pantheon to deny the AIs.
     
  10. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    I thought for a while where should I go with the Scout & decided to follow the path of my original Warrior.

    Spoiler T11-20 :

    T10

    - found Cahokia, 30G, Whales
    - started Monument

    T11

    - Pottery, started Mining

    T12

    - cult ruin, opened Liberty
    - met Assyria with Honor
    - found Kilimandjaro, 6 left

    T13

    - map & 75G ruins
    - Cape Town, 15G, Gems
    - Stockholm 3 pop

    T14

    - met the Maya

    T15

    - found Uluru, 5 left
    - met Morocco, Tradition

    T17

    - pop ruin

    T18

    - Embassy to Ahmad 1 gpt
    - Mining, started Archery

    T19

    - Bronze Working ruin

    Spoiler pix :


    CFC SG Gustav T20.jpg



    - policy up for grabs, I'd take Republic
    - CS border near western Scout
    - ruin by the Gold near Stockholm
    - Ahmad came from East
    - Ashur had a Scout near Cape T
    - we have 2 nearby camps so I was saving for an Archer
    - northernmost tile in Palenque has Horses & Worker & Warrior and the city had Atlatlist

    Cities:

    - Uluru, on the hill by the sea, NE
    - Kilimadjaro, riverside or on the open hill, SW
    - by the Sugar, W
    - filler between the previous 2, W
    - one to grab the Gold, W
    - near desert Copper, NE
    - near Dyes, SW
    - mountain pass near Spices, E
    - depending on the mountains somewhere near the Silver, E
    - at least one, preferably 2 or even 3 to the South of Stockholm, S & SE

    That still leaves us with only one coastal and AI might have other ideas. We can forward settle to both Pacal & Ahmad but I'd like to know where Ashur's closest cities are.

    - Pantheon looks like OnW/SC/DF.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  11. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Well that's quite a lot of new info. Lots of quarries, two NWs and not as much desert as I thought. And that's Vatican City north of Palenque apparently, so we're getting first pantheon unless an AI founds one this turn. If Ahmad is on a desert start and gets DF he could become an annoyance. On the other hand, if we take DF, we'll have to settle the desert city very quickly and it's the least contested spot so that doesn't make much sense. I'm thinking Stone Circles here.

    Some thoughts:

    Units: I'm thinking collect the ruin near Gold with the new Scout, then pick up Mt Kili bonus and send him south. Western Scout meets Vatican and tries to recruit a Mayan worker. Meanwhile build a Spear and send him on a worker stealing mission either to Jerusalem or Mayan lands depending on how things go. Warrior can come back home, unfogging the mountain range. Buy an archer for barb control.

    Build order: We're getting Republic this turn and a Stone tile next turn, so we'll have 8 hammers per turn and 15 turns to Collective rule, so we have roughly 120 hammers to spend until it's time to spam settlers. I'm thinking Spearman + Worker, which is 126 hammers. If we don't get a pantheon from Vatican or that ruin, something like Spear - Shrine - Archer could work too. Spear + 2x Archer is another option if we want to start farming a GG.

    Or if Vatican gives 30 gold we can actually buy a Spearman right away, have him collect the ruin and see if we get a Pikeman upgrade. Scout can go get Mt Kili promo and move south immediately then. Capital could build Worker + 2 Archers, it's 150 hammers but we have a chop which saves 20. I think I like this option the most, but Pacal has most likely met Vatican already.

    City placement: Still need more info. Lots of good spots. Uluru city's a bit sad without cargo ship support, potentially from a city planted where the warrior is right now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  12. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    I think you may safely play your turn now & we'll postpone the First Gathering to T30 as Beetle is unlikely to play before it's evening on the east coast. Besides, we need more map info before settling apart from the first 2-3 expos.

    For Pantheon I think we can leave DF out of the picture even if Ahmad takes it. He's not going Piety and we can kill him if his religion becomes an issue. SC would likely be better for long turn but can we get it rolling fast enough? OnW is the safe option but taking SC away from AI is a huge bonus.
     
  13. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T20:
    - We're first to meet Vatican for 30g and 8f thanks to Pacal's incompetence. Friendly, Whales.
    - New SP: Republic
    - Bought a Spear, started a Worker

    T21:
    - We get the first pantheon, Stone Circles
    - Don't see good opportunities to steal Mayan workers so keep exploring

    T22:
    - Ruin near the Gold has been taken by an Assyrian scout

    T23:
    - Unknown civ gets Goddess of Protection

    T24:
    - Assyrian scout turns around for some reason. Our spearman sees another ruin and so does the western scout

    T25:
    - We actually get the Pikeman ruin upgrade. The other ruin is 60 faith
    - We meet Gandhi and sell him our embassy
    - Archery done, started Masonry

    T27:
    - First to meet Prague. Hostile, Gems
    - Took a worker from Jerusalem, from an annoying spot on the northern Iron tile as the Gems had already been improved

    T28:
    - Great Library is built by an unknown civ
    - First to meet Lhasa. Friendly, Gems

    T29:
    - Worker finished, moved him to chop, started Archer
    - Stole a worker from Morocco
    - Culture ruin

    Spoiler Screen :
    20210826114624_1.jpg


    @beetle is up

    Notes:

    - Cities: 1, workers: 3, so no more stealing from CSs for now. I'd still pillage that Gems tile at some point for the cash
    - I believe Ahmad sent all his warriors to deal with the barb camp by the mountains so our Scout should be pretty safe there
    - According to the tourism menu Pacal has met someone that noone else has, so there's at least one more civ on the continent
    - Timings got messed up by the culture ruin a little bit, I'd still get two archers because we're surrounded by barbs. There's a hand-axe on the forest tile next to the desert Stone
    - Once we have the archers and other units have healed up we might be able to tribute Cahokia and the CS near Jerusalem

    Do we pause here to discuss city placement?
     

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    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  14. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Thanks for the map!

    No hurry, but I would also like for us to have a discussion about Rationalism. Last game I wasted an SP picked because I recklessly assumed we would be closing out Rationalism for Internet (or maybe Globalism, for WC control).

    I will take my turn this evening, about 12 hours from the timestamp on this post.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  15. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    We sure have lots of land again. But this time its more difficult for me to pinpoint city locations. I will have to go against my natural inclination to found cities near two different luxes. That's not going to be possible on this map. Maybe we throw caution to the wind and just spam cities ala earlier incarnations of Civ.

    The lack of a coast is also not great, especially for continents. That one Uluru city is pretty sad for sure and there isn't a good spot for another (that can be seen in the screenshot, I haven't looked at the save files). I can't tell if the Morocco cities are coastal, we might just have to appropriate them for ourselves. Maybe there's coast to the south.

    Oh, and I just noticed Nimrud, Ashur is pretty close. And is that India to the south too? So much for coastal cities to the south. Our first expo should secure Mt. Kili for sure I would say.
     
  16. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    I 'd sent the Settler to Uluru escorted by the Warrior to meet Moroccoan Worker and the 2nd Settler to riverside Jungle by Kili or vice versa depending on what Pacal seems to be doing. That Pike could move there for Worker steals & to stop Pacal's settling if he's coming our way.

    Next city would be the Sugar by the river somewhere with enough hammers but then it gets interesting as there seems to be general lack of food the Gold one being an exception but that & desert Copper would be fine after founding a religion though the Gold one could produce much needed units. I'd put that on the hill by Cattle, Bison & Stone and if we'll have Worker turns to spend it should be settled sooner rather than later.

    One down South by the river on a hill, Copper & Bananas on 2nd ring would be lovely but too risky without units unless we befriend with Ashur & get him to DoW Gandhi which should be encouraged anyway. Much easier spot to defend is by the Bananas & Mountain.

    The Spice city can do on its own if settled riverside so the Spices will be 2nd ring. Much easier to defend if it's one tile NW but then Spices & Bison are on 3rd ring & there's less to chop. Silver city could be on the riverside desert hill which would have some food & possibility for a Moroccoan Caravan and bombing Ivory & Gems on one go. These might also not be too contested which leaves the option of post CS/NC settling. Troll city between Sugar & Kili has plenty of options.

    - There seems to be an unmet CS NE and hopefully access to the Sea as those places are rare and Chichen Itza doesn't look that tempting.
    - we need more units and India should be easy enough to pass scorewise to help bribing Ashur.
    - money will likely be an issue again


    Eagerly waiting for Raider's city placement map.


    I also thought that keeping this sort (or something similar, I really didn't spent weeks designing this) of small table in every transition post would be handy. Obviously some of the info here is time/turn dependant but for the sake of clarity keeping the same format is useful.


    --------------------------
    cities 1
    workers 3
    NW 5
    --------------------------
    Ancient
    ------------------------
    bribe ---
    GS ---
    GMu ---
    --------------------------
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    My attempt to put those on a map:

    East:
    Spoiler :
    east_cities.jpg
    White for Uluru and Furs
    Green for mutual cargo ships with White, third ring Ivory
    Yellow for Silver and desert quarry
    Orange for Spices and blocking
    Pink is a filler city. River version could have one of the Guilds, hill version gets stoneworks and lots more hammers in the first two rings for quicker development

    West:
    Spoiler :
    west_cities.jpg
    White gets Mt Kili and Dyes, potentially third ring Stone and/or Iron too if we settle away from Kili
    Yellow connects Sugar
    Green connects Gold, there could be coastal city there as well, depending on what's in the fog
    Red blocks Ashur. I don't like the gap between White and Red, the riverside grassland hill spot is much better and leaves space for another city by that 1-tile lake to pick up Stone and Iron
    Orange filler, potential Guild city, gets a desert quarry eventually

    I'd settle Mt Kili first - we have 74 faith already, only one AI has a pantheon and none of the AIs we've met went Piety, and we'll probably lose first religion to the Goddess of Protection AI either way. Mt Kili city is a quick settle and helps avoid unit supply limit penalty, plus the culture would speed up the next policy (which I think should be Trad opener, we'll need lots of tiles here)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2021
  18. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Oh good, that second coastal city looks much better than I thought now that I can see it better. We're probably going to need to hurry to beat Ahmad to it.
    • For the western cities, do you mean this river/hill tile (circled in map)? That looks best to me. And I think that corresponds to what Gren, you were talking about? Too bad we can't get that Cotton too.
    • Personally, I prefer the white circled hex for Kili, it gets the stone and iron. Its a bit far away from Stockholm and leaves a gap between the two and some AI will probably try to settle in that gap if we let them.
    • It would be good to uncover more of the map around the sugar before sending a settler up that way. I would love to settle on the Sugar but that misses the Elephant.

    Spoiler western cities :
    west_cities my comments.jpg


    Other matters.
    • How early are we going to start fighting? I remember last game you all thought we should have started earlier.
    • How many cities before NC? We have so much space.
     
  19. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    I love that people want to settle Uluru! Kind of far away, but why not? Especially if we aim to clear the continent, city placement less of an issue, and not so much of a race. I agree with @raider980 that city placement versus NC timing is worth a discussion.

    Since we are Sweden, what is our GP strategy? I vote for building all Guilds early, and giving them all away, except maybe GE (and the first two GPr). 90 influence is serious, and we have already agreed to limit our use of GS. Maybe once we have all the CS under our sway, we can consider theming? If we close out Patronage, we will have more GP than we know what to do with.

    As for VC, my vote is for later DOM, not really starting until the UU unlocks. Maybe shift to CV if that looks smoother, after clearing the continent.

    I went for Kili first, as we were over the supply cap. I tried for Pyramids, hard fail, but that is better than stringing it out I suppose. I made peace w/ Ahmad after taking another worker.
    • T030
      • Gandhi enters classic
      • Civil Service unlocked, Settler heading to Kili
      • first to meet Almaty (Irrational, Iron, Gems, Mandekalu Cavalry (very nice)), give PoP
    • T031 Pike waxes barb camp and is hardly hurt; I thought it would take two hits
    • T032
      • Ashurbanipal about to kill barb camp (S, near Nimrud) which I might have farmed, so Scout risks a hit for the xp
      • back home, Hand-Axe interrupts chop
    • T033 retreating Scout (S, near Nimrud) spots ruin
    • T034
      • finish Masonry, start Animal Husbandry
      • Lhasa wants barb camp cleared, but they are angry, so no PoP
      • Almaty wants a TR
      • Archer out, kills Hand-Axe
      • start on Pyramids
      • ruin upgrades Scout
      • settle Sigtuna on Kili, picking the spot that unlocks Observatory and keeps the Sheep
    • T036 money quest from Almaty
    • T037
      • lose (Morocco) worker near Cape Town, sorry
      • Ahmad offering white peace, and it is legit (no doubt because of the Pike)
      • take another worker from Ahmad and make peace
      • give Cape Town PoP for their easy quests
    • T038 give Lhasa PoP
    • T039
      • Pyramids build in a far away land (we needed 17 more turns, and I forgot to note the fail gold, my apologies)
      • start on Caravan
      • AH unlocked, and we have Horses in our 2nd and 3rd ring; start on Writing
    • T040 interstitial: Temple of Artemis built in a far away land
    @Grendeldef by “small table in every transition post” are you visualizing a kind of running log or just a status snap shot? And is a transition post when anyone hand off their ten-turn rounds, once everyone had a ten-turn round, once per era, or maybe when someone calls a time out for planning and discussion?

    @vadalaz city placement suggestions all look great to me. You asked for feedback on the two northern pink “filler” options. I definitely prefer the river/guild choice.

    I believe @fiddlesticks is up. Welcome to the group! Probably you should pause the Caravan for Settlers (I am easily distracted by CS quests). I agree with Tradition opener sooner than later, but I vote for Citizenship first.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2021
  20. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Some comments on our rule set. Which I will abide, but I just feel a couple of the details are picayune, and hope we might reconsider.
    I missed this last game, and probably did lump-sum trades. I should have asked since it did strike me as odd that we had not accounted for lump sum trading with self-imposed gpt cap. Since there are other conditions, lump sum trading never felt to me like it was a defective game mechanism.
    I very much agree with not running TR from low pop cities to the cap. Halting growth when TR are turn limited anyways seems a bit silly to me.
    I was confused when @vadalaz said not to take more workers from Jerusalem. I though he meant we already had more workers than we could use! CS worker stealing opportunities are limited enough that I am not convinced this limit would be reached more than once per game.
     

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