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Nobels for Violence

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by Grendeldef, Aug 25, 2021.

  1. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    I agree the game does not run Huge maps well. So I am in favor of wrapping up sooner than later.

    If we are first to Ideologies, my vote would be just tucking in for an Order SV. Boring, but the rounds should go relatively fast.

    OTOH our neighbors are really annoying. Might we consider an Autocracy oriented Diplo VC? I do not think I have done that before. That will mean swimming an army around the map (to intimidate CS), so that is kind of tedious.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  2. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    A Diplo Victory might be interesting to try for on this map with the unusual number of AI and CS. I have no idea how many votes will be required or if it would be harder or easier than a normal map. And Autocracy would be fun for that too, we could grow a massive navy and become number one in military and use Gunboat Diplomacy. Right now we're #5 in military but most of the capitals are coastal on the other continent so we could take some of them out with our navy while we're at it. Slight problem is we don't have that many coastal cities ourselves, but we could take some.

    Edit. Regarding map size. Yeah, the huge size causes issues but I was hoping to play one of the earth extended/mediterranean maps next time. They're big but not sure if the biggest. I also don't mind playing only 5 turns toward the end of the game. I take a lot longer to take my turns than most people and even without the game slowness, I'm just slower in general so 10 turns takes me a long time even on smaller maps.
     
  3. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    I’m ok with SV with any Ideology. I’d keep bullying our neighbours and leave the other continent alone.

    I agree with the suggestions for a smaller map and a VC target at the outset next time.
     
  4. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Not having to bother with the other continent would be a huge plus. It just so annoying.

    I think that rules out DOM, Diplo, and CV. So that only leaves SV, which is fine by me.

    Leaving Sejong alone is a risk to SV. But we are allowing ourselves a DOW bribe per era, so can we see what we can stir up?

    For SV w/ a side war, I prefer Order over Freedom. Or maybe start with Freedom and flip to Order after SOL and Volunteer Army?
     
  5. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    In general or this map in particular, due to its size and Shaka and Attila being there?

    Part of the reason why I started the first SG was that playing 5-10 turn stints makes it a lot less tedious for any individual player, so that opens the path to maps and strategies you'd normally find too exhausting to try in solo play. Hence the huge Earth map being the first pick. But perhaps it was too ambitious to play Large and Huge maps right away.

    If everyone shares this feeling, I think we can just retire now and start a new game. We're in a very strong position in the current game and there's no doubt we'll win it - 12 cities and could easily capture more, about to ally 19th CS, first ideology, third in science just 3% behind the leader in literacy, neighbors have been neutralized and the other continent is very easy to bribe into endless wars. That counts as a victory to me and I think I'd rather start a new game than go for an Order SV here.

    If we continue I think I'd like to have some side goals to keep things interesting while teching to victory, e.g. must clear the home continent and convert it to our religion, have all 30 CSs on the map allied, things like that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  6. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Anyhow, here's T185-195:

    T185
    - Peace with Ahmad for Linkoping, Tangier, 80 gpt and 286 gold. Puppet Tangier
    - City center tiles not yielding anything is one of the dumbest bugs in the game
    - Bulb Industrialization. We have 7 coal immediately, I also buy all of Neb's and Sejong's coal to try and get first ideology. Might be too late though?
    - Start Factory in Stockholm, buy factory in Linkoping
    - Neb has Electricity so that's what I want to steal
    - Tell Gandhi to send his prophets somewhere else

    T186:
    - Ahmad offers to DoW Ashur, I decline
    - Not renewing OB with Gandhi
    - Start Fertilizer as it looks like lots of our cities could benefit from it
    - Trap one of Gandhi's prophets

    T187:
    - Ally of Kyzyl
    - Keep buying Coal

    T188:
    - Ahmad offers friendship. Decline
    - Too late to buy a 5-shot Tengriism prophet in Palenque. Will keep purchasing public schools then
    - Found Barringer Crater. One more NW left to find

    T189:
    - DoW India for being annoying
    - Lost two caravans. Started 2 Cargo Ships in Linkoping and Turku
    - Captured the trapped prophet, gifted to Mbanza
    - Started Military Science

    T190:
    - Captured another Indian prophet, gifted to Prague
    - Purchased a Factory in Uppsala, started Big Ben

    T191:
    - Stole Electricity. Next steal in 31 turns

    T192:
    - First ideology: Order. Take monument and workshop happiness, fast factories.
    - Captured Pataliputra, puppet
    - Annexed Casablanca

    T193:
    - Military Sci done, started Navigation, I do want at least a small fleet to defend our Cargo Ships here
    - Since we decided to leave the other continent alone, I commit 10 votes for Arts Funding and 11 for CHS to please Babylon, and renew DoF with Korea
    - Sign RA with Korea in the interim

    T194:
    - Arts Funding and Culture Heritage Sites both pass
    - Proposed World's Fair

    - Wellington wants Dyes, we get our Dyes back on turn 200
    - Neb enters Modern (Replaceable parts)

    Interim:
    - Neb adopts Autocracy, we get dissidents but still +17 happy
    - Neb allies Quebec and it delays Stockholm's growth. I hate this guy. Quebec wants Dyes as well now

    Spoiler Screen :
    20210911110246_1.jpg
    Industrial era, bribe still available, GS bulb not available.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  7. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    This map in particular. I don’t like that we are not in position to build a navy, and the larger size compounds that problem. At this stage in the game, I am not the least bit troubled by Shaka and Attila. OTOH, AIs that spam cities make DOM more tedious.
    I agree with your reasoning, and that map was fun, and an excellent first pick!
    What I meant by my comment is that several of the game mechanics do not scale well with extra AIs. IMHO, the biggest play-balance defect being that that player really should have another TR and Spy.
    My preference is to finish this game first.
    Is that why the internal hammer TR and RA with Sejong (when he has PT, and is our only potential rival)?
    I am also okay with a new game. I agree that Order SV does not offer many surprises. For the next game, we still need to (1) pick civ and VC, and (2) tweak a couple of our rules.
    I am in favor of all three of these!

    Summary on my round of turns:
    • T195
      • Babylon adopts Autocracy
      • Exchange OB w/ Ahmad
      • revoke many CS POP where we are allies or good friends
      • cheap bribe to Shaka to have him DOW Sejong
      • put Armory and Caravel in queue ahead of factory in Turku, since it would be good to unfog the map
      • bringing home Scout lacking altitude training, we still have fog on our home continent anyway
      • spending our gold on UU upgrades
      • TR to Marrakech
    • T196
      • Gandhi offering up Banglalor for peace; decline, but that’s nice to see
      • Navigation researched, start on Archaeology
      • CS elections conclude, and we loose influence in Sidon
      • move veteran spy to Sidon, and novice spy to Babylon
    • T197
      • GMu born, gift to Vatican City
      • capture and puppet Vijayanagara
    • T198
      • Korea adopts Order
      • Do not forgive Nebuchadnezzar for bullying Mogadishu
      • Gift Mogadishu our GA
      • Gift Zanzibar our GW
    • T199
      • Attila makes peace w/ Nebuchadnezzar
      • Archeology unlocked, start on Steam Power
      • Antiquity sites near Sigtuna, Helsinki, Espoo, Lund, Linköping, Tangier, and Vijayanagara
      • Trade Nebuchadnezzar for Cocoa
    • T200
      • loose worker near Helsinki, but will be no problem to take back
      • POP to Malacca since they asked
      • standing Knights on Antiquity sites rather than upgrading them
      • TR from Stockholm to Jerusalem for quest
    • T200
      • decline to forgive Shaka for bullying Malacca
      • we get our Dyes back for good things
      • GS born in Birka, plant on Banana
      • TR from Stockholm to Uxmal
      • capture plantable GPr near Delhi
      • Gandhi willing to give up several cities for peace
    • T201
      • Attila wants to DOW Sejong — which I would love to do — but we have DOF, so decline
      • another GG born, keeping it to stack w/ second UU
    • T202
      • Ahmad beats us to Brandenburg Gate by three turns; even worse, I did not think to have something in queue behind it
      • Steam Power researched (oops, so much for Caravel), start on Dynamite
      • adopt Humanism
      • finally taking shots on Delhi, as the many enemy units screening the city have been eliminated
    • T203
      • do not forgive Shaka for bullying Mogadishu
      • annex Pataliputra because it has started on a Bank
    • T204
      • gift Hong Kong 1K for ally status
      • give Yerevan POP for quest
    War is going well, I did not loose any units. Delhi should be ours soon.

    @fiddlesticks is up.
    • I turned off most of the manual citizen assignments, so please check that and make changes those as you like.
    • I was sending the Gat to Casablanca, the Mehal Safari to Kili, and GPr to plant next to Stockholm.
    • I was teching towards Railroad (for Kremlin, of course). Sejong might beat us.
    • Cathedrals are on auto-purchase.
    • There are several trades you could do. I was waiting to see if CS pops Oil quest or if on the AI on the other continent gets a lux we need.
    • Our cities want Crab, but I do not even see that on the map!
    • 40 turns to steal a tech from Babylon, which might not be worth it. If I had noticed, I would have recalled to Stockholm.
    • Delhi will one-shot-kill XB.
    • Expos have been mostly building Circuses and Colosseums. Happiness is good now, but will tank if we accept Gandhi’s default peace offer. (Which I think we should, after taking Delhi.)
    Spoiler screenshot of action :
    civ5ss-sweden-sg-t205.jpg
    Industrial era, dow bribe not available, GS bulb not available.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  8. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    I’m camping over the weekend so it’ll be Monday or Tuesday before I can get to my turns. Feel free to skip me or slot me in later.
     
  9. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    I'm ok with wither continuing or calling it a win and starting a new one.

    Although we could continue playing this one and talk about the new one also. Sounds like we agree we need to discuss the rules. I think we have relaxed them way too much. I would be in favor of going back to the No B's and using the rule set we used in the Mediterranean game or at least close to it. Even though I couldn't see it early in the game, the games since that one have seemed easy after the fact. (With the possible exception of the Byzantium game and that one we won without too much trouble the end - and we went Piety). And in this one we can call our win at T185 even though there's still a lot of game to go.
     
  10. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    I'll go ahead and play my 5 turns.
     
  11. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    So, its T213, I just captured Delhi and we have an SP pick and just got a GArtist. I'll pause here for a bit to see if anyone has a strong opinion of what to do:

    1. SP. Free Thought for +Sci. in Rationalism. Or in Order: +25% to GPeople or Skyscrapers?
    2. GAr. Start Golden Age or put him in a city building?

    If I don't hear back I'll do Free Thought and Golden Age.
     
  12. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    That works for me
     
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    FT and GA is fine with me.

    I had been thinking that by clearing the continent, it would be no problem to theme any GW buildings from captures. So no good reason not to gift away GA for the UA.

    But Delhi has Uffizi. That takes 3 GA, all from the same era and civ. If we don’t save our GA for it, I do not think we will be able to theme it. So now I am favor of closing out Aesthetics sooner than later (so we can purchase a GA). On the plus side, we already have what we need to theme Hermitage.
     
  14. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    I played 10 turns because I wanted to capture Delhi. The slowness wasn't as bad this time for some reason. Probably because all I was mostly doing was firing on Delhi which doesn't require zooming out.

    T205.
    • Nimrud finishes Monument, starts Bank in 3 turns. Birka finishes something, starts Public School (PS). Helsinki finishes Forge, starts Windmill.
    • What's up with all these workers building roads to nowhere? I didn't know what to do with them so start moving workers into position to build railroads.
    • Fire at Delhi, XB barely do any damage.
    • Rearrange some tile assignments.

    Interim. Gandhi offers almost all his cities for peace, no. Shaka and Atilla enter Modern.

    T206.
    • World Congress expands infrastructure, we vote for ourselves.
    • We discover Dynamite, automatically move to RR.
    • Upgrade Canon to Arty. XB didn't do any damage so move them back to our territory to upgrade to Gats.
    • Stockholm finishes Colesium, starts Hydro Plant. Espoo finishes Stable, starts Factory. Lund finishes Forge, works Wealth because they have terrible production for anything else.

    Interim. Zulu and Huns adopt Autocracy.

    T207.
    • Big Ben is built in Uppsala.
    • Palenque finishes Colesium, starts Observatory. Casablanca and Pataliputra finish Cthouse, start Factory.
    • Healing units. Trade Nebby and Sejong for some gold to upgrade XBs and a couple horse units to Cavalry and bringing more troops down to Delhi.

    Interim. Atilla DoW Sejong. Cahokia wants a road. Now ally of Manilla.

    T208. Linkoping finishes Observatory, starts Frigate. Nimrud finishes Bank, starts Garden. Upgrading and moving units into position to attack Delhi.

    T209. Uppsala finishes something, starts Armory. Firing on Delhi with Arty and 2 Gats. Lose a Hakk.

    Interim. RA is up: discover RR and enter Modern.

    T210. Birka finishes PS210, starts Archeologist, its production stinks; switch to growth tiles. Turku finishes Factory, starts Cargo Ship. Delhi in the Yellow.

    Interim. Shaka and Sejong make peace.

    T211 Discover Biology, start Rep. Parts. We have no oil anywhere. Send new Spy to Jerusalem. Special agent Leif failed to rig elections in Sidon, the Zulu did. Delhi in the red.

    Interim. Zulu coup in Sidon, but not before it gifts us a Cavalry. Our Scout died near Madurai.

    T212.
    • Stockholm finishes something, starts Bank, we need money. Uppsala finishes Armory, starts Arty. Turk finishes CS, starts Observatory. Caravans are more valuable than CS, we need that tech that extends sea TR.
    • Captue Delhi. Slightly worried about a Rifle in the lake but I don't think he can cap it back. Since we have no oil, will head the army to Calcutta which does. Plus its coastal even though its not a good city.

    Interim. Sign RA with Nebby. Kyzyl is in awe of our cultural advancement.

    T213.
    • We have enough faith to buy a Monastary but not sure if we want that or a GPr so I'll leave it for the next person.
    • GAr is born bulb it for a Golden Age.
    • Helsinki finishes WM, starts PS. Nimrud finishes Garden, starts WM.
    • Take Free Thought as our SP.
    • Trade Sejong Copper for some gold and gpt.

    Interim.
    • Shaka wants us to go to war vs. Atilla. That would be glorious but we have two lux trades with Atilla. Might be fun to bribe one of them into it.
    • Trade Nebby Gold for gold.
    • Samarkand gives us their oil (3).
    • Babylon took ally Lhasa from us. We have impressed Quebec City with our culture.
    • Lost a Mand Cav.

    T214.
    • Discover Rep. Parts, start Flight.
    • Turku finishes Observatory, starts Market. Palenque finishes Obs, starts WM. Linkoping finishes Frigate, starts Armory.
    • Ugrade Caros to GWI.
    • Scout on other continent finds Grand Mesa.

    Interim. Nebby asks us to go to war vs. Atilla (second one). Also, completes Broadway. Huns took Manilla from us as ally.

    Spoiler War Front :
    T215 War front.jpg

    Spoiler Workers building RR system in main territory :
    T215 Main cities.jpg


    Thoughts.
    • Probably should have gone for Refrigeration for the extended sea TR instead of Flight.
    • Going for Calcutta could have been a mistake. Its not easy to get to and there are 3 Galleas offshore.
     

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  15. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    T215:
    - Stockholm starts Kremlin
    - Annex Vijaya and Tangier
    - Peace w/ Gandhi: Bangalore, Lahore, 40 gpt
    - Gift Bangalore and Lahore to Attila, he'll raze them for us
    - Ask around if anyone wants to DoW Ashur, all decline
    - DoW Ashur
    - Looks like Neb's the runaway AI, not Sejong
    - Bribe Neb to DoW Sejong and Attila

    T216:
    - Changed Janissary-Carolean's name to Superman
    - 80 gpt from Morocco ended

    T217:
    - Babylon in Atomic era via Atomic Theory

    T219:
    - Stockholm flips back to Tengriism so I buy a GPr

    T220:
    - GS spawns, two CSs are happy about it
    - Spreading Tengriism

    T221:
    - Golden Age ends
    - Committed 25 votes for World's Fair
    - Setting up overflow for WF

    T222:
    - WF passes, Historical landmarks doesn't
    - Proposed WR: Tengriism, home continent and Attila not happy about it but noone else cares
    - Shaka DoWs Attila

    T223:
    - Neb proposed WI: Autocracy
    - Captured Nineveh
    - Upgraded to Battleships
    - New SP: Philanthropy

    T224:
    - RA with Sejong complete, gives about 2 turns worth of research
    - Bulb Plastics, overflow to Ballistics
    - Faith-bought a research lab in Lund
    - Annexed Delhi

    Spoiler Screen :
    20210913130117_1.jpg


    @beetle is up. Notes:

    - Modern era, bribe not available, bulb not available

    - I believe we're winning WF. This will start another Golden Age and we have a Writer to burn
    - I suggest Scholasticism next but there are lots of good choices here
    - Started building trading posts as we're reaching the endgame
    - Moved some troops to Morocco and built a few ships for support
     

    Attached Files:

  16. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Looking good! I will play my round tonight. SV, but try and clear the continent first, yes?

    Here is my proposal of our rules for the next game:
    • Limited Bees:
      • One DoW bribe allowed per era. DoW bribes must be paid in full (e.g., no DoWing to break the bribe deal).
      • One GS bulb allowed per era, and it has to be for a technology already known by at least one AI.
      • One GMu bulb per era.
      • No limits on other uses of Great People.
    • Limited CS abuse:
      • No DoW on CS before turn 30.
      • No DoW on CS for Workers if we have already taken a Worker from an AI.
      • No taking Workers from CS unless we have fewer Workers than cities.
    • No white peace bug abuse.
      • Asking AIs for peace allowed only after first expo is planted.
      • Player may not delete away from on our side of a peace deal.
    • No abuse of other broken game mechanics:
      • No selling of single strategic resources for 2 gpt.
      • No internal food trade routes to the capital, unless that city has a higher population than the capital.
      • No one-way Open Border deals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Something like that yeah. Might have to settle for DiploV though if Neb beats us to space, or just kill him too. All other AIs seem irrelevant at this point.

    Regarding rules, I'm in favor of:

    - banning bribes
    - banning CS worker steals (to keep things simple)
    - a cap on gold from peace deals and city selling, maybe something like 100 gpt
     
  18. fiddlesticks

    fiddlesticks Chieftain

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    I agree with these - clear and reasonable.
     
  19. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Is that 100gpt per peace deal or total throughout the game? It feels like to me once we make a peace deal and then get a lot of gpt it snowballs and we just dominate. 100gpt per deal seems like too much to me.
     
  20. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Working on my turns now. Probably won’t get done before diner. I see one Scout died on T211. We still have one. What happened to the other? I do not plan to DOW Ahmad. I was hoping for a couple more Artillery for my turn.

    I had meant to include the “no DOWS just for money” with the broken game mechanics bullets. Sorry about that, as it is pretty important.

    I would like for us to play with significant constraints on GS/GMu bulbs. The No Bees was a little too strict for me, but I prefer that.
     

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