1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Noble Houses and Revolutions Feedback thread

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by Sephi, Apr 16, 2010.

  1. Neomega

    Neomega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,261
    That sounds like fun.
     
  2. Neomega

    Neomega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,261
    House Vadalis water walking and amphibious bears is :confused: Bears can swim, yes, but they cant swim forever. Also, I think affinity for fish and bananas is OP, should just be aptitude.
     
  3. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,715
    Bears who've eaten puffer fish and moldy plantains have been known to knock their way through brick walls. One of these so-called "Zombie Bears" actually broke into a bank vault in Kingston, in 1947.
     
  4. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    The house Vidalis (sp?) camp may need to be toned down a little. It's only turn 250, and I have 5 cities and something like 8 each of fur, ivory and game. Basically, most tiles with this camp have popped a resource over the last maybe 40 turns. Also, I can't see much advantage for elves now in forests when other civs can build this improvement in forests (which beats by a long shot any other improvement you might want to build).
     
  5. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    In theory, the various houses should be adding diversity to my play. However, my experience over the last 5 games or so has been the exact opposite. Let me preface this by saying that my experience may be specific to my game style. So...my last 5 games in brief: Accept all houses that offer support. Build all buildings. Use special units to generate all resources possible. The only bump in the road is that when I build Guild of Hammers, House Vadalis support drops to 40 or even 20 (and once I lost a city, but I took it back on the same turn; in any case, support comes back up quickly as I fill in hunting lodges in all cities). So by turn 250 or thereabouts I always have 3 or 4 houses and I’m swimming in excess resources. So what is my complaint? Well, I'm not exactly sure, but it seems like my last few games have suffered from a sort of sameness and I can't help but blame it on the Houses. I don't even remember now whether I was playing elves, vampires or orcs in a particular game.

    It's kind of like playing on a map with 10x resources. It seems cool at first. But it quickly gets old and ultimately reduces variety between games. I really like the Houses in concept. But I think they need to be toned way down or folks will just tire of them (I know, some folks will always think that more is better and will not agree with me). Here are a few suggestions:

    • Limit resource generation of each type. House Vadalis alone results in essentially every tile having fur, ivory or game (see post above). Getting even one of each would be a big boost, let alone 12 of each (oh! another fur! I'm trying so hard to be excited!). Can there be some kind of feedback mechanism where odds of popping a new resource shrinks based on how many you already have? I really don’t think houses should provide more than 1 or 2 of each.

    • House disapproval should have other negative effects besides (or possibly in addition to) revolt. The revolt mechanism is kind of…blah. I’ve only ever seen it once: I just took the city back on the same turn and that was that (does the AI even have this option? I don't think it will ever DoW on the same turn that a House revolts). Instead, why not have each house provide house-specific problems as their support decreases. Ghalanda: minus trade modifier. Vadalis: minus food modifier. And so on. These smaller effects should kick in incrementally at levels like 90, 80, 70, etc.

    • More houses should have resources that compete. In addition to the existing culture vs. arcane houses, maybe Ghalanda vs. Vadalis (these are typically the earliest two) and (forget names here) the money vs. warfare houses. I’d be happy with some other mechanism, but my main point here is that you shouldn't take 5 houses in all games. In fact, I'd like to see some mechanism where you really can't (or shouldn't) take more than one house. If I only could take one, I'd have to think harder about it and it might make this aspect of the game play out differently in each game.
     
  6. Neomega

    Neomega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,261
    I think the answer is a couple more houses, and more stringent competition, and of course a massive lowering of resource generation, or even leave the resource generation to random, house based events that require a good amount of cash, (or maybe resource, or culture generation, or multiple resources eaten up) and still have a 50% chance of failure. That way, if the third fur comes up, you really have to ask are you willing to risk 200 gold on a fur you dont need?

    I think trying to find a workable balance where 2 houses per empire would be possible if well cultivated and catered to. 3 would be just about impossible, one would feel neglected.

    For example, if you kind of mapped out the 5 houses on a star, with a house at each point, make any point on the star in competition with the two opposite, and in disagreement with the two beside it.

    With six or seven houses, I think you could find a better balance with this system.

    Some possible bad effects could be events, like a house demanding a mine be built. Or in a city, you have a choice of +1:mad: or lose merhcant house favor, (small businesses feel pushed out), +1:yuck: when Cannith requests questionable experiments, or lose favor, -2:gold: when Phiarlan actors strike, or lose favor.
    Random events, that go up in occurance based on how many cities, units and improvements related to the house you have. Basically, the bigger they get in your empire, the bolder they get, and the more demanding they get, and the more they put their own interests above that of everyone else.... kind of like a certain massive powerful country with a massive oil spill right now... :p
    Just thinking outloud. :)
     
  7. Neomega

    Neomega Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,261
    Also, houses could have affinities for other civs, (Vadalis for Ljosalfar and Svartalfar, Cannith for Amurites and Sheaim, Phiarlan for Balseraphs, etc) or perhaps just for whichever civ is currently the highest rated benefactor of the house... with the winner of a tie going to the first to have the house established. (so if 3 civs have 100 support, the first founder is considered the best benefactor)

    Then you could get events which the house asks you to either break trade with the other civ's worst enemy, or even go to war with them. Refusing makes :mad: in all cities with the house, or decrease of modifier, accepting only increases their modifier. With the picture events mod, it would be like internal diplomacy.
    these smaller events could be triggered wither randomly, or based periodically upon the civics (hostile civics make it more often), or perhaps when support falls to a certain level (we doubt your loyalty to our house's needs) , or perhaps again when they reach a certain level of power/establishment in cities, (we are powerful, and it's time to swing some nuts)

    If you happen to be the highest rated benefactor of the house, and they break into revolution from another civ, they should immediately ask you for assistance in their liberation struggle. Refusing would cost support, accepting would gain support and a small bonus. (ie every city with cannith house would give +1:science:)

    I know this is hella confusing, but I think it could really make some internal and external political choices, and make war more probable based on the demands of special interests. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think civ IV really dropped the ball with the idea of corporations. I mean the British East India Company pretty much conquered/subverted much of India, and that started to manifest itself in 1757.

    Improvements, if possible, should not be allowed to be built outside the BFC of cities without the support of the civic.
     
  8. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    I agree with all of Neomega's suggestions. To put the point more briefly, Houses should be about flavor, not economic domination (except for the one House that is about economic domination). I should only have Vadalis if I'm emphasizing the hunt in a particular game. They should not be civ-specific (although some civ synergies are fine), but you should only have a House if you are emphasizing that House's particular element in a game. In any given game that should mean maybe one or (at most) two houses for a civ.

    Although I listed it above, I don't really like the competing resource as a mechanism. It's too arbitrary: why I can have the War and Trade Houses, but not the Culture and Arcane Houses? I think a better mechanism would be to strongly tweak the initial offer probabilities based on existing houses in a civ, so that 2nd offer is much more rare (say 1/10 current chance) and 3rd is almost non-existent (say 1/100 current chance). Also, the current pattern seems to be very few offers early, and then an avalanche of offers (sometimes >2 in a turn) in later game. This needs to be adjusted.
     
  9. Otiose

    Otiose Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Okeechobee Fl
    (originally posted in bug thread, moved here)

    My first try with the Noble Houses option and having some trouble incorporating house valdalis. After researching a few worker techs and Hunting, the Noble house icon was added to the city but not the little star symbolizing the head quarters. Neither did the pop up for house support appear. I've tried several times with two cities, each connected to the proper resources. (with resource related techs and noble house option enabled)

    Does House Valdalis have some special requirement or is it a bug?
     
  10. graywarden

    graywarden Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    819
    Sephi,

    I know this is minor, but in some of the random events, there is an adjective code that corresponds to the civilizations. The Noble Houses do not have an adjective, so the events show up with a civilization adjective (Ljolsofar), but the python cursor will show the "Protectors of Erebus" (in the options).
    If I add an adjective tag to the noble houses CorpCiv4CorporationInfo.xml

    Spoiler :
    <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CORPORATION_HOUSE_CANNITH_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
    <Adjective>TXT_KEY_CORPORATION_HOUSE_CANNITH_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>


    then the reference tag in Civ4WildManaNewGW

    Spoiler :
    <TEXT>
    <Tag>TXT_KEY_CIV_CORPORATION_HOUSE_CANNITH_ADJECTIVE</Tag>
    <English>The House Cannith</English>
    <French>The House Cannith</French>
    <German>The House Cannith</German>
    <Italian>The House Cannith</Italian>
    <Spanish>The House Cannith</Spanish>
    </TEXT>


    would this cause a crash (1
    and how does this correspond with the python seeing the leaderheadinfo "protectors of erebus"-example (2

    also if the intention is to show the leaderheadinfo rather then the house (empire), i need to know which leaderheads line up with which houses. so far i havent found anything to tell me this.
     
  11. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,908
    You can only use XML tags in a file if it is defined in the schema. If you search for CorporationInfo in the schema file civ4corporationinfos.xml uses, you can see that there is no adjective tag defined.

    Spoiler tags for CorporationInfos :

    Code:
    	<ElementType name="CorporationInfo" content="eltOnly" order="many">
    		<element type="Type"/>
    		<element type="Description"/>
    		<element type="Civilopedia"/>
    		<element type="TechPrereq"/>
    		<element type="FreeUnitClass"/>
    		<element type="iSpreadFactor"/>
    		<element type="iTGAIndex" minOccurs="0"/>
    		<element type="iSpreadCost"/>
    		<element type="iMaintenance"/>
    		<element type="PrereqBonuses"/>
    		<element type="HeadquarterCommerces"/>
    		<element type="BonusProduced"/>
    		<element type="CommercesProduced"/>
    		<element type="YieldsProduced"/>
    		<element type="Button"/>
    		<element type="MovieFile"/>
    		<element type="MovieSound"/>
    		<element type="Sound"/>
    		<element type="BonusTrait"/>		
    		<element type="iOrderPriority" minOccurs="0"/>
    	</ElementType>
    
     
  12. graywarden

    graywarden Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    819
    Ok very good I see how that works. So if i get a little balzy and enter
    <element type="Adjective"/>

    then the appropriate tag file, would that create a problem then at that point?

    I am somewhat talking theoretically/generally at this point as well as the specific example under discussion, as I try to expand my capabilities with the xmls.
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    It wouldn't create a problem, it just wouldn't do anything. New tags need to be added to the DLL as well to be able to have any function.
     
  14. graywarden

    graywarden Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    819
    so the schema is added to the DLL then to code the xmls, is that right?
     
  15. rabican

    rabican Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    This is by far the most incomplete feature in this mod.

    1. You can only get the support trait from House G. Rest won't give trait even when incorprated.

    2. The high nobles of House T cannot be built. At least i didn't find a way. And even if they could be built they would be best melee units in game with no requirements and no limitations. Need somekind of small national limit at least.

    3. As said in previous posts, house G plantation/house V camps are bonky. They give pretty much guranteed resources, pretty fast and you can build soooo many of them that you just end up swimming in resources. I think the house G wandering inn is enough for resource accumulation .

    4. The standard this-city-has-corporation-it-brings-stuff mechanic is bit awry. Unless its very late in game or you have double resources on or you've used the bonky house G plantation/ house V camp , you will likely lose more money than you gain stuff. A lot more. Also i have no clue what this corporation payment money drain is based on. Losing 18.6 gold per turn for having 2 houses in 12pop city seems bit much. Unless houses are only meant to be spread into cities you are going to build their special buildings in (thats what i do).

    5.Computer still gets absolutely devastated by the revolutions. Longer the game goes on the more messed up it becomes. They tend to not to build the units needed to increase the support and just can expand fast enough. Don't think they ever build the special units/buildings. Not sure if they even gain anything useful from adopting houses , if they use them at all.

    6. Most of the race unique buildings/units don't grant favor/disfavor if their equivalent normal building would . Most notably Amurite transmutation lab/wizard's hall don't count towards house cannith support.


    7. Bears and gorillas. The affinity is bad(they usually are but lets not go there now). Most mapscripts tend to clump 3-4 bananas,fishes together , meaning that you can get about immortal equivalent with 2 cities at hunting.

    8. Houses like war. No clue why but they trip over each other declearing support for you when go to war.


    8. At the very least the house units should be upgradable to stronger house units . house V hunters ---> master hunters . Hous T noble --> high noble. you get the picture .


    9

    House P .
    If cultural victory is enabled this is pretty insanely powerful. 1-3 extra Great bards+ some more culture is going to win you games + the trait that is like free theatre in every city, culture vice. Very good for civs that can't go past Adept in arcane line naturally. Otherwise pretty useless, unless you really need some extra culture.

    House T.
    only 2 reasons to take this: if you haven't gotten iron by advanced warfare and the high nobles(which don't work) . trait is pretty good too if you have a lot of upgrading to do or do some bizarre upgrade paths for extra promotions.

    House G.
    Totally awesome trait, small version of one of the most overpowered mechanics in game (trader). The buildable buildings is awesomely good too. Units, both of them bring you more resources. Everything you can do with this house brings you more resources. Bit overkill.

    House C.
    The trait is uh... awesome. I however don't think the house traits shoud be that much more powerful than regular traits. The buildable buildings are total overkill too. Better than anything else - besides crown of A - research vise and gives free mana to boot. Even the units are excellently good.

    House V.
    Trait is lesser version of pretty crappy trait. The buildable building is very meh. Only reason to take this is semi-free nature mana and abusing bears/camps.

    my last point was that house G and C are always gosh darn awesome and rest are pretty situational(P) or crappy/abuse prone. Never got house K but from glance that looks most balanced out of the lot ,the trait , again seems bit overkill though.

    Thats all i can think of for now .

    I would give positive feeback but i'm sure none would be interested in that.
     
  16. tesb

    tesb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,593
    @rabican
    good post i usually play without the houses, so i can't comment on your observations but feedback is always welcome :)
     
  17. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,908
    thanks for posting this feedback.

    1.) very odd. fixed
    2.) You can build one swordmaster for every 4 Training halls owned. Updated unithelp ingame
    3.) already planned this change for a while, I set it now so that you can't build two of these improvements next to each other.
    4.) Noble Houses maintenance cost is 10% of City Commerce

    will comment on the other issues the next days
     
  18. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,908
    5) Set AI now so that it remembers how many cities it has already lost. The more it lost, the more it will try to please the House that Supports it. They will also build special buildings/units now.
    6) thanks for the reminder. A lot added
    7) they start with base combat 3, so getting them to high strength takes lots of resources. If anything, affinity mechanic needs to be balanced in general
    8) might add the upgrade ability later. Would require some code so prevent mass upgrading into high nobles which are supposed to be limited in numbers
     
  19. tesb

    tesb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,593
    just put a national limit on the higher tier units does the trick :)
    if you want to upgrade more then the limit allows they won't upgrade
     
  20. Hansebenger

    Hansebenger KingKäs

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Messages:
    39
    Is there a documentation which tells me what I have to do for the Noble Houses to offer their support ?

    In my current game I even incorporated House Cannith, but they didn't offer me their support yet. (Yes I have built dozens of adepts and alchemy labs to increase their support) It is a bit frustrating not to know what you can do to get the support of the noble houses. Someone stated that you have to declare war !?
     

Share This Page