noble newbie - where to settle second city

[silk1976]

Soon I am going to be confronted with a decision of where to place my second city - and I'm looking for some help/opinions on where I should settle.

I have been playing at the noble level difficulty for a while, and through trial and mostly error, been adjusting strategy as I go along so that I become better at balancing fending off barbarians, spreading religion, keeping up with research, and maintaining a military. Unfortunately, I'm still not that good at balancing!

One thing I've tried, to keep the number of variables down, is to keep using the same initial save game (attached, in the event that this thread becomes somewhat of a walkthrough). While that does give me some spoiler information - I think that by going back to the same save game it can help solidify my decision making progress, and hopefully that'll translate to future games.

Anyhow - attached is a screen shot of the world near my capital city of Washington (playing at Lincoln - BTS 3.17). Here has been what I've done for some of my decisions so far
- research AH and build worker to pasture the pigs. Once worker finished, build a couple warriors for exploration and basic defense.
- send warrior exploring.
- research mysticism so I can build stonehenge (with Lincoln being charismatic and thus getting +1 happy with a monument, it seemed worthwhile to me to spend hammers on stonehenge)
- after mysticism, go for mining and BW to chop forest to finish stonehenge.
- build settler after stonehenge, followed by some warriors (still in queue)

My thinking for immediate future:
- research wheel (for roads) and pottery (for cottages), followed by hunting and archery (to get archers and keep military upgraded), and then iron working. Writing may pre-empt IW so I can get library and a couple scientist specialists going, depending on whether the second city (and possibly third) city is kept far enough away from the jungle.

Unfortunately, it looks like I'm a little far away from any copper, and with relative lack of hills, I suspect I'm a little far away from any iron as well.

With the large amount of jungle nearby, I'm thinking that I'm going to need a small army of workers (maybe a ratio of 2:1 workers-to-cities) in order to chop all the jungle necessary. However, I may be able to put that off a little while - again, if the next city or two are kept away from the jungles.

Also - I'm trying to go for a specialist economy - so I want to build a lot of farms. Seems like once I have civil service and can get the jungle bulldozed, it should be a ripe map for that.

Regarding religion - I only want to found and spread a religion for the money - I dont really care, at this point, whether I choose a state religion or not. That may change in the future depending on how the AI and their religions play out. But for now I'm vaguely thinking of being able to chop the oracle, get CoL and confucianism, and call it a day.

So:
- where should the second city go?
- was my thinking and actions up to this point valid, or did I waste time either by building warriors or stonehenge too early, or researching the wrong things?
- should I go straight for IW and workers to start cutting the jungle right away - or would it be better to place a 2nd and possibly a 3rd city south of the jungle, in the forested area, where chopping can at least produce hammers to help chop granaries and/or libraries?
- what should I do regarding lack of nearby copper, and quite possibly the lack of nearby iron? In those kind of situations, do you just build a token city near the resource, and pave a road to it - and basically just suck up the extra city maint? I can see this being a potential issue depending on how fast barbarians are able to get axemen.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

I'd say you need better exploration. Especially the horse area. There may be some food in the fog there. And chariots are great units for anti-barb purposes.
That desert tile 2E from the corn may be a good site, but I think it's too far away for a second city. And it needs better exploration.

That riverside area NE of Washington looks great for a heavily cottaged city.

 

[Sisiutil]

So:
- where should the second city go?
- was my thinking and actions up to this point valid, or did I waste time either by building warriors or stonehenge too early, or researching the wrong things?
- should I go straight for IW and workers to start cutting the jungle right away - or would it be better to place a 2nd and possibly a 3rd city south of the jungle, in the forested area, where chopping can at least produce hammers to help chop granaries and/or libraries?
- what should I do regarding lack of nearby copper, and quite possibly the lack of nearby iron? In those kind of situations, do you just build a token city near the resource, and pave a road to it - and basically just suck up the extra city maint? I can see this being a potential issue depending on how fast barbarians are able to get axemen.

1. Copper isn't so ridiculously far away that you shouldn't consider claiming it. Having Axemen available will have a big impact on what you research next (you could probably leave Archery and possibly Iron Working to be obtained through tech trading, specifically). Since you have Stonehenge, you have a little more flexibility in the placement. (Normally with a non-Creative leader I'd want the copper in the city's first ring so I don't have to wait to build a monument and then for the borders to pop.) Settling on that desert tile 2S/1W of the copper looks attractive, since it also claims the corn and looks to be coastal. You should explore that area some more, though, since it might be preferable to assign the corn to a third city in between the capital and coppertown--which would only be possible if there's another food tile in the fog near the copper.
2. I think your decisions thus far have been pretty sound. Normally, though, I would have built a settler before any wonders, so the second city can provide a strategic resource and take over unit/worker/settler production while the capital works on the wonder. On Noble difficulty, you should have time for that before Stonehenge is built. But, if you really want the wonder, then going for it out of the gate isn't such a bad idea.
3. IW is a slightly tougher call. You have a resource up there in the jungle (the ivory), along with horses and good cottage country (all those riverside grassland tiles!). So you may want to head there sooner rather than later. Explore more of the territory to your SE before making a final decision. Keep in mind that you'll need a TON of workers to chop that jungle. All the more reason to snag the copper--send your axes to steal some workers from a hapless neighbour.
4. I think I answered your 4th question above; yes, having copper is worth a little extra city maintenance. As I said, you can delay both Archery and IW (though maybe not in this game, given the map), and you have a unit that can deal with whatever the barbs throw at you. You won't see barb axemen until, IIRC, all the civs on your continent have the tech necessary to build them (BW).

 

[silk1976]

Thanks guys -

When multiple people immediately point to the desert tile, then it warrants attention! Especially since settling there would allow copper to be obtained when the borders pop.

Unfortunately I didn't save the game right at the time I posted the message, so when I kept playing (before I saw the responses), I couldn't go back.

So - I started over. Yeah, its cheating - but trying to learn here. The problem is trying to keep knowlege obtained from previous sessions from clouding judgement

That gave me the opportunity to follow your thinking, sisiutil, of building a settler before stonehenge. As I was able to both build a settler and follow my normal concentric-circle-like exploration pattern, I was able to see the copper before a settlement area was decided upon.

I also took the opportunity to more fully explore that area. It was indeed coastal, and also near Wang Kon. So I settled in the desert square.

I then realized I made a small potential mistake. sisiutil, you pointed out the option of a 3rd city only if there was another food resource near the copper. There was - pigs. The desert tile was placed so that I'd grab copper, corn and pigs when the borders pop. So by settling in the desert, I compromised some potential of a 3rd city in that region.

So, since I will soon be able to claim copper, I can skip the archery for now. However, due to the close proximity of Wang Kon, and my experiences with him in the past, I decided to go for IW next. I figure I need to clear jungle for ivory, horses, and gems (eventually). By having IW a little early, I can hopefully get some swordsmen out (whipping in both NY and washington, with both cities having 2 food resources, I should be able to get a good handful of swordsman out quickly) and take out Wang Kon before he gets too big. Of course, that depends on where iron pops up. Since IW is 17 turns away, and I can build a settler in 8 turns, I'll start on building the dozer crew (workers) in the meantime.

Attached is a screenshot of the current state of things. (and how do I post a screen shot inline, without it being an attachment?)

 

[CouNterOrdeR]

I skimmed very briefly through here but id say i like where newyork is, it will be a valuable city through the whole game and also wouldve been real bad if Wang got that spot. Considering you have metal (and perhaps now Wang does not) with a very close nieghbor and with very little room to expand... Dont wait till swordsman, dont wait for more worker settlers, pump out some axeman and get yourself a second capital and lots of breathing room. Get pottery lay cottages get writing make a cpl friends get col and get an empire. ahha
So far so good. Happy gaming.

 

[silk1976]

I skimmed very briefly through here but id say i like where newyork is, it will be a valuable city through the whole game and also wouldve been real bad if Wang got that spot. Considering you have metal (and perhaps now Wang does not) with a very close nieghbor and with very little room to expand... Dont wait till swordsman, dont wait for more worker settlers, pump out some axeman and get yourself a second capital and lots of breathing room. Get pottery lay cottages get writing make a cpl friends get col and get an empire. ahha
So far so good. Happy gaming.

It took some time to get the logistics, but I managed to take your advice. Since on NY had copper, and it was a long way away from washington, all axemen had to initally come from NY. So I chopped about 3-4 of them using the forests near NY and sent them into seoul. Turns out he had iron right in his back yard!
He was defending mostly with warriors. With seoul taken, he had no iron, and the rest was a mop up job requiring only a few extra axemen to help with the initial batch (who were weakened by this point).

So in the end, its 600 BC, and I got 3 cities out of it, knocked out my closest neighbor, only suffered a -1 diplomatic penalty with one of wang kon's friends , got marble (could be useful for some wonders), and gained plenty of room to expand.

This could be a very good learning experience in terms of determining the appropriate time to attack!

Now, to clean up and settle things down a bit...

 

[gilfan]

Here's a pattern I like to use. Cities are 5 squares apart on each row or column, and the next row or column is offset by 2 or 3 squares. I uses every tile with a minimum of overlap. Every city gets 18-20 squares.

As for sequence of settling, there are two goals to consider, IMO. Ideally, your first settler should plant a city that has abundant food, so it can grow quickly. The other thing to keep in mind is you should try to build a culture wall to keep other civs from exploring/settling. For instance, if you're on a continent with 1 other civ, and you settle cities who's culture blocks off 2/3 of the continent from the other civ unless he declares war on you, you're in a very, very good position.

Here's a pic with my suggestions based on what you've exploreed so far in your first post, and the sequence I'd settle them in.


[edit] based on your later pic, i would have settled the city sw of the corn first, and used your capital to build 2 fishing boats... 3 food sources can get big FAST and build lots of workers and settlers. then settle the copper city and let it take over the corn


One tip I think most people overlook. If you build stonehenge early, it means you almost certainly get a great prophet early. Found any religion, then use the GP to build the holy city, and start raking in the 1g/city with that religion. This early 5-10g per turn can have a HUGE impact.

 

[cracked]

Where you built that second city is great.

You won't necessarily need to get roads up to it to connect it. Get sailing instead (it allows coastal trade. As long as the resource is linked by road to a coastal city and a clear path via the ocean, the capital will gain access to it). sailing will also allow you to build Moa statues, making washington a very strong production and trade city.

 

[cracked]

One other thing: using that worker your building in new york to chop down those trees and get a monument quickly is a very good move. You should always get shot of any trees nwxt to your cities where possible (opponents can use them as they provide defensive bonuses to other troops).

The gp advantage from stone henge isn't so much overlooked: guys like sisutl usually play harder levels where going for wonders can be a bit of a waste of time.

 

[silk1976]

gilfan - I know what you mean by a culture wall. I'm just never sure which is better - building the culture wall first, and then back filling - or building outwards. I suppose each have their own downsides depending on the layout and the AI opponents (their tendencies to settle a lot of cities).

Also - I had gone through a variation placing a city near your #2 spot. I actually went 1 SE so that I wouldn't lose the farmable river tile to the city plot. But that was a game that I've since reloaded and continued in the direction I've been on since. I had considered putting a city down in that spot, but the city maintenance costs from the new cities put a drag on my research for quite a while, so I never got a good chance to do it yet.

Regarding your number 1 spot - it seems to me that city would grow very slowly - although I suppose there is the corn, and 2 tiles that could be farmed right away with the BFC (since it would pop quickly with stonehenge). Would make a kick ass production city, once it gets going, though.

cracked Sailing! Didn't think of that! I'll have to remember that for next time. Also, thanks for the tip on the statues - I always have a hard time deciding which cities to put certain nat'l wonders in.

 

[gilfan]

I've always found it easier to claim land farther away and backfill than to grow outward from the capital then fight for land someone else has already settled. Wars are bad for business, they suck up all your production that could be better spent on making your economy strong (e.g. constructing buildings).

After seeing your more explored map, my new #1 city would be the two fish/corn city, then i would start it cranking out nothing but workers and settlers. It would also be the ideal place for the moai statues, obviously. As for my original #1 city (copper/corn), it would get up to size 5 or 6 plenty fast, which is all you really need.

Re: the #2 city comment, yes you gain a farmable river tile, but you lose tiles to city overlap, and you lose the +2 health bonus for being on a fresh water tile

gilfan - I know what you mean by a culture wall. I'm just never sure which is better - building the culture wall first, and then back filling - or building outwards. I suppose each have their own downsides depending on the layout and the AI opponents (their tendencies to settle a lot of cities).

Also - I had gone through a variation placing a city near your #2 spot. I actually went 1 SE so that I wouldn't lose the farmable river tile to the city plot. But that was a game that I've since reloaded and continued in the direction I've been on since. I had considered putting a city down in that spot, but the city maintenance costs from the new cities put a drag on my research for quite a while, so I never got a good chance to do it yet.

Regarding your number 1 spot - it seems to me that city would grow very slowly - although I suppose there is the corn, and 2 tiles that could be farmed right away with the BFC (since it would pop quickly with stonehenge). Would make a kick ass production city, once it gets going, though.

cracked Sailing! Didn't think of that! I'll have to remember that for next time. Also, thanks for the tip on the statues - I always have a hard time deciding which cities to put certain nat'l wonders in.