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[BTS] Noble Shadow game - Huyana Capac

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shikhar Agrawal, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Not sure what you mean by "overwrite". Chopping forests is very important though.
     
  2. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    I meant changing the improvement they are building during automation. For eg I dont like windmills and to me it's feels like they build to much farms so I change the command. Unrelated but is there a way so that they don't change my improvements
     
  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Game options has that exact setting. Regardless, we are talking about something that you should not do. Automating workers is very poor gameplay because a) worker management is one of most important things as a human player you do in this game b) Automated worker AI is terrible.
     
  4. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Yeah I get it , I wont automate them now
     
  5. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    So you've got your worker, are improving your best food tile. It's time to start thinking ahead to when you get a settler. The most common pattern is worker => warrior (and grow to size 2) => settler. Starting the settler will freeze your city at a single size for a while, so if you have 3+ strong early tiles you want to be working sometimes you prefer to grow to size-3 or size-4 before starting the settler (size-4 is more common, because you can do a size 4 -> 2 whip for 60 hammers of production; pair that with chopping a forest, and you can potentially finish the settler in 1 or 2 turns).

    In this case, you have the one power tile. The pigs. It's a really good tile, 6 food+hammer yield (5 food 1 hammer), but it's just the one. Gold and floodplains are good longer-term, but more for the commerce than their immediate productivity. So there's no real reason or need to delay the settler past size-2. On some games where you are planning a size-2 settler you might want to juggle which tiles your city works on a given turn to make certain the city hits size-2 at the same time as or a turn before the warrior finishes; on this start it's just going to line up even without doing anything.

    When the pasture finishes, you're going to need to decide what to do with the worker. Your only plausible options are mine on the gold, or farm on the floodplains. Farming the floodplains is not necessarily all that efficient because a little ways down the line you're going to want a cottage on that tile (cottage floodplains are a good tile for the capital to be working in the Classical / Medieval era, especially once the Bureaucracy civic becomes available), so the early worker turns would be overwritten. It's something you might do anyways in some games if the worker had nothing better to do, but here the gold mine is a good strong option.

    Gold mine will finish and you'll still have a couple turns before Bronze Working. You could put a bit of worker time into that plains-hill mine 1SE of your capital - start it, but cancel the mine instruction when the worker is needed elsewhere. Turns invested are saved. If you spend 1 turn making a mine there now, and then 20 turns down the line you go back to finish, it will take 1 turn less to finish then as opposed to if your worker had just stood around waiting. When Bronze Working research has 1 turn remaining you'll want to move the worker onto a forest; you want to start chopping as soon as possible.

    After Bronze Working you're going to need to think about subsequent tech path. Pottery for cottages and the Terraces is a tech you don't want to delay too long; it usually jumps to the top of the list after you've got your Bronze Working and the necessary worker tech for improving your starting food specials. Don't switch into Bronze Working right away; your settler will be almost finished, so you can wrap that up then spend your anarchy turn while the settler is actually out moving on the map. I think that'd probably take you up to somewhere around turn 30? Keep scouting with your initial Quechua, send the second one out to scout too when it finishes. As soon as the settler finishes would be a good point to pause a next turn-set and get some more feedback on where to go next.

    Oh - it's also worth mentioning. If your scouting Quechua should happen to bump into an AI with a worker out on the borders, feel free to just move in and steal that worker. Especially as Inca, with the really strong early Quechua unit, that early war is not a major concern and getting an extra worker can be a big boost to your early-game growth. As Inca you can actually just Quechua-rush a nearby enemy (build like 6 or 7 Quechua and conquer their capital), but you won't learn much from doing that. Not a habit I'd recommend forming, although it's a big part of the reason the Inca are generally considered the strongest civilization in the game.
     
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  6. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    ok I have researched mining and pasture is about to be improved met genghis and mansa musa in the mean time
     

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  7. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Every early city ought to have a food resource it can work to grow. And usually you want it to be something that can be improved and worked without needing 10 culture for a border pop first. So you've got three good food resource tiles visible: the pigs your capital works (could be shared with another city in a pinch), the corn to the east, and the wheat to the west.

    Think of settling somewhere adjacent to the corn, and somewhere adjacent to the wheat. Think about what tiles a city 1N of the corn could work, what tiles 1W, what tiles 1E or 1SE or whatever. When you've got one of those tiles still hidden by fog of war, that'd be something you would ideally like to scout with a Quechua before your settler finishes - so you know where would be best to send that settler. Your first Quechua is near the wheat right now, and should probably take a couple turns to scout that vicinity; when your second Quechua finishes, ideally it's heading east to poke around the corn and see what's in that vicinity.
     
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  8. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    ok as coanda said I have improved gold , got bronze working and getting a settler and while scouting the locations found ethopia not mansa musa in the east
     

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  9. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    This is an intuitive way to play, and in most games it would be a good way to do things - but Civ4 is a little trickier. Some city overlap is No Problem. As others have said here - Early gains vastly outweigh the long-term potential. As long as you're settling in a compact way near food, you'll be okay.

    A nice second city here might be just a few tiles South and West of the capital on the river by the Wheat, with tiles overlapping the capital. The wheat gives you good food to grow the city, this city is nice and close so it won't cost much in maintenance, and since they're both on the same river, they'll be connected without having to build any roads, so you can share the benefits of the gold / pigs, and get a trade route right away.

    Next city after that probably would be that corn / cow / flood plain spot.

    (.......your instinct was good to get the techs first that matched up with your resources. Animal Husbandry for pigs, and Mining for gold. Not bothering about religions is good, and we can discuss your diplomatic game later on.)
     
  10. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    You're playing too fast here to get much feedback.

    Here's some questions I'd be asking myself.
    • What's my worker going to do?
      • After improving the pigs and gold, chopping a forest to get the settler out faster is nice. I see you moved your worker onto that plains hill. I wouldn't bother mining that plains hill - I want my capital to grow, so I want to work that flood plains. I also want that settler out faster, so I'd want to chop a forest.
    • How can I make my capital strong?
      • Settlers stop your city from growing, so I want to minimize the time I'm doing that which makes chopping forests more attractive.
    • Where is that settler going to settle?
      • I see Zara over to the East. That corn location looks really great, so I'd probably settle there first.
      • That Wheat spot down below looked better earlier before more scouting, but it's just a so-so "helper city", so it might be a good 3rd city, once I have pottery and want to get a bunch of cottages going.
    • When do I want to switch to Slavery? It's often nice to switch to slavery right AFTER your 1st settler is built, so that the anarchy happens while you only have 1 city.
     
  11. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Actually I was playing as the above person coanda said
    He said to improve SE1 meanwhile bronze working is researching and I immediately saved the game when I researched the bronze working to get the feedback and to where I should settle and what tech I should researched , I am thinking wheel is that a good choice
     
  12. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    There seems to have been a touch of misunderstanding about what I was trying to suggest you do with the worker. This is a pretty important concept regarding worker micro to have a good grasp on, so it's maybe worth discussing again.

    I believe your worker finished the mind on the gold hill around turn 22. Bronze Working won't finish until turn 26, so you've got 3 "spare" turns where the worker wants to do something productive. That's not long enough to finish any improvement, but it's long enough to make a start on one.

    Turn 22 worker finishes gold mine. Turn 23 worker moves onto hill 1SE of capital. Turn 24 worker starts building a mine there, then cancels the order after using up its movement for the turn. Turn 25 worker moves north onto the forest hill 1E of the capital. Turn 26 Bronze Working finishes, and worker starts chopping.

    What you've gained out of this bit of micro is a single turn put into that mine 1SE of your capital - you haven't fully built the mine, but at some point in the future you'll circle back to that tile and finish the mine, and it will take 1 turn less because you put some time into it now. And you've done it without delaying the start of what you really want your worker to be doing, chopping down a forest to get out that settler.

    The more general point is to be aware of the idea that just because a worker starts an improvement doesn't mean you have to leave them rooted in place there until they finish the improvement; sometimes you can find opportunities (whether it's because you're waiting on tech or a border pop, or because the 2-move worker can spend two half-turns moving instead of one full turn and do something productive with each of the other half-turns) to put one or even two turns of partial progress on an improvement you don't need right away without any real delay in your broader plan. It's free worker-turns, grab them when you can.

    More generally, it's definitely a good idea to be talking in your turnset posts about not just what happened, but what you are thinking about and planning. That helps other people figure out where you already have a firm understanding versus where more advice would be useful, and it also pushes you to form the habit of thinking through your moves and justifying them in your mind as you play.

    You're pretty much at the point now where it's time to start thinking about where to settle your second / third cities - you could maybe have played two or three turns further first, but this is fine. This is a very important decision, and would be a good point to take a significant pause and let a few other players weigh in with advice.
     
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  13. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    The key is to "start chopping as soon as possible". So, the worker should be on a forest tile the same turn that you finish bronze working. Looks like you missed it by one turn, but the 2nd best time to start chopping that forest is now.

    The mine was just a micro-optimization to give the worker something to do, and probably an advanced technique for you at this point.

    Wheel is reasonable here. Then pottery. Incan granaries are excellent.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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  14. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Ok now I get your point perfectly and thanks for explaining quite deeply. 1N above cow looks good to me , would get 3 super tile right away and has plenty hills and river tiles as well and is not far from capital
     
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  15. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    One thing should I save some forest for wonders or just use them elsewhere for worker/settler/granary
     
  16. crashmon

    crashmon Chieftain

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    One of the mistakes starting players make is just building wonders instead of focusing on city improvements. If you are planning to build a wonder, you need to think what exactly is it going to do for me to justify me putting that amount of resources into to it (TBH I am also bad at this if I get marble, I get soo tempted to rush Oracle, when it might not be best play)... For now in this game I would not think about wonders, and instead focus on buildings / units....

    Now to answer you question on forests, yes you probably should save some forests, as its posible you will need to rush units / barracks if you end up getting DOW'd (Genghis is not a nice person to be next early doors). Yes you 100% have to chop, as this is the most powerful tool you have early game, but you should always be asking yourself if I am chopping what am I speeding up and why... Early game is all about getting out 5 or 6 cities, and then getting to Monachy to better your economy.. I'm not saying you should not build wonders but for this game unless you can get a wonder cheaply then avoid.. Now you do have stone which makes the pyramids a possibilty, but I will leave it to others far better to make that call, personally I would not think about wonders in this game while your learning
     
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  17. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    Natural instinct in this game leans way more towards not chopping enough than to chop too much. I still have to fight urge that myself. You want those settlers / workers going soon. Especially with a gold tile + being a financial leader with plenty of rivers - you've got plenty of commerce to fuel lots of expansion.

    The only wonder I'd consider in this game is Pyramids - you have stone not too far away and you're industrious. But even then - focus on getting the Wheat and Corn cities going ASAP.

    As for city placement..... I'm okay at it, but other better players often have better ideas than I do.
    • I'm not sure about 1SW of corn. It's decent, but I like 1 SE of corn instead.
    • I like 1SE of corn. The brown cow is not critical, and if you go 1N of cow, you will have trouble taking advantage of all those flood plains over there. Flood plains are really powerful for financial leaders, plus Zara's land is over there.
    • I like 1 E of wheat. You can help develop the capital cottages from there, and have a few chops available. And it give you room later to settle a really nice double-gem city once you have iron working, and maybe 5-6 other cities.
     
  18. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Ok won't pay much attention to wonders , I too learned while playing they aren't much worth it some like Pyramids + Kremlin ( democracy is awesome) around banking I make tons of money and it helps though in early game representation is nice , colossus , Stonehenge , great light house.

    Thanks for telling it never occurred to me for saving some for units , I usually chop them for worker and settlers so that my city don't stop growing
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
  19. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    1N of the cow is a good spot. Cow and corn immediately, can share the pigs with capital, short move times, some forests to chop. In many games, you'd be delighted to have a city site like that available and I'm glad you spotted the potential - it shows you thinking in the right direction. In this particular game, I think 1SE of the corn is even better. It still has the corn immediately available, and the fact that you're Inca (so your Terraces will give border pops) means needing a border pop for the cow isn't as big of a problem. Grabbing those four floodplains is extremely nice, and as a clincher it's land that Zara Yaqob will probably take if you don't.

    There's another spot around the wheat. It's not your second city (that's something around the corn), but probably your third unless your scouting finds something better. 1E of the wheat and 1N of the wheat are both good locations. They both get wheat right away, they can both help grow two cottages for the capital. 1E is nice because it's on the river (saves the worker turns of a road to hook it up to the capital, gets a bit more free health), shares a floodplains with the capital so it can get a bit more food surplus as needed, and captures a handful of forests for chops. 1N is nice because it's got a 2-hammer city tile so it's more immediately productive, and it captures the Stone as well which opens up some interesting possibilities for an Industrious leader like Huayna Capac. I would probably pick between the two based on whether I planned on doing anything with that Stone.

    Eventually I'd be looking ahead to putting a city around those two gems to the south. 2S of the pigs could share that pigs with the capital while catching the gems; there might be a better spot in the region too. But since the gems are jungled over, they're need Iron Working and a lot of worker-turns to improve. And the site is almost pure commerce, not adding much in the way of food/hammers surplus, while the earliest part of the game leans more heavily on food. So it'd be a fourth, fifth, maybe even sixth city depending on what else scouting revealed and how the game was going.
     
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  20. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Are flood plains that important with SW I thought to take more hills.
     

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