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[BTS] Noble Shadow game - Huyana Capac

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shikhar Agrawal, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Already given the order
    Thinking of settling 1N wheat instead of 1E so won't be able to do that
    Ok will do since there is nothing else besides worker to build
    Have actually no idea where to settle , thinking for gold to further my tech lead
    Could go for construction and take ethopia capital
    Tbh I really feel lost now and don't know what to do next. Since I have never gotten 3 cities and this much tech so early. @lymond could you give some advice here please
     
  2. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    What you can ask yourself at this point is this:

    • Should I expand?
      • Is there good unclaimed land?
      • If so, you should probably keep building settlers.
      • If not, you can consider war.
    • What victory condition am I going for?
      • Seems like in this game every condition is still on the table.
      • Conquest / Domination is sort of the standard-approach, but the others are totally viable.
    • If you're going for war:
      • What techs / resources are needed to win the war?
        • Axes - Works on lower levels. But you don't have bronze.
        • Swords - Not that good unless you have catapults too.
        • Horse archers - win against anybody who just has archers. you can still beat AI's who have some metal units, but you want to pillage their metals before they build a bunch of spears, which are a pretty hard counter to horse archers.
        • Construction unlocks catapults - which in good numbers let you take cities easily until they have longbows.
    • If you're peacefully expanding and have a lot of land:
      • Currency boosts trade routes and lets you build wealth to pay for the maintenance costs.
      • Masonry - pyramids are a game changer.
      • Civil Service - bureaucracy civic makes a powerhouse capital that can fuel tons of expansion.
      • Monarchy - heredity rule is big for getting decent cities. but if you are going for pyramids, you can ignore monarchy.
      • Code of Laws - courthouses not so much. but caste-system with pyramids are what you are going for.

    If you want to learn how to manage a growing empire - I suggest peaceful expansion. In that case, you can probably grab Masonry, then head up to Currency and then Code of Laws. From there you can tech Civil Service, or and maybe use a great scientist to bulb Philosophy. Meanwhile, some city (maybe the wheat site) - can build the pyramids.

    At this difficulty level with this land, you would easily found confucianism and taoism with that. and could still easily get any victory condition.
     
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  3. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Well I do want to learn so will go as you suggest
     
  4. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    got mathematics now going for currency , library and 6 in capital next turn , settler in next turn , quarry in 2+3 , what to build in capital and tiwanku and how is 2S from pigs will get instant trade routes pigs for growth and both mines.On the side note to me etopian capital looks very tempting , he has just 1 archer , 4-5 warrior could do the job
    Spoiler :

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  5. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    after the library is in - depends what your happiness cap is. but if the capital is size 6, you should probably just work 2 scientists. Put hammers into the pyramids for fail gold in the capital until you want to build it for real in Machu Picchu. You can have the mature capital slow-build workers when it's working max tiles for the happiness + 2 scientists. 1st great scientist can either bulb Phiosophy or build an Academy in the capital. [You generally build zero or one academies. Pretty much never build 2 academies - you'd rather bulb with the scientists because they don't pay back for themselves in secondary cities].

    Make sure the capital has plenty of cottages to work and isn't working unimproved river tiles. If you don't have 3 workers now, you probably want to get a 3rd one, since you'll have 4 cities shortly.

    Not sure I like the idea to attack with warriors. You have quechas - so it'll work - but they're pretty cheesy. Normally, by the time you'd get 4-5 warriors AI will likely have multiple archers, and it'd be suicide. Warrior rushing is not viable after Noble - though worker stealing with warriors is always an option, but that's advanced, and you're a little late for that. There's also an art to timing your attacks. It can be good to let an AI hum along for a little while to improve land for you and build wonders that you don't feel like building. You are going to leave Zara in the dust quickly, so I would say wait a little to attack him.

    I see some good city spots:
    • Cow Gold.
    • Sheep / silk / horse - The way you put city 3 1N of wheat makes it a little awkward how to use the sheep - since you have to put the sheep in the 2nd ring to avoid wasting the horse, which is a handy tile. But you could just put 1 chop into the terrace and use the horse tile to build the rest pretty fast, I suppose.
    • Bronze Marble
    • Fur / Deer. Hey - Fur is +1 happiness. Starting to get marginal here. By this point, I'd think about attacking Zara rather than settling that site. It's not a great city but not terrible. Maybe later.
    • Corn / Silver - Kind of far, but a nice city after the others.
    Couple of gaps in the scouting have me wondering if there is seafood up by the sheep? 1N of sheep might actually be good if there's fish up there.
    What those tiles are by the lake by the marble?
    What is over past the gold.

    Improving that horse, and getting a couple of chariots out to scout is wise.
    Building a cottage on the tile 1 S of your gold is nice, because it's a shared tile, so you can ensure it's always growing towards a town.


    I would *probably* go for the sheep / silk / horse next, though the Cow gold is nice too - and slightly more likely to get taken earlier. I would scout north of the sheep a bit more to ensure you're not going to orphan a fish first.

    Once I settle the sheep, cow, and marble / bronze sites, I think it'd be time to build a few catapults and axes and take out Zara. You should get all of those cities built by turn 80, or 2 of the 3 and build pyramids. Catapults and Chariots will work to attack with, plus a few quechas, so the bronze site can wait.

    Probably want to chop the pyramids in Machu Picchu after you connect the stone. Maybe we can do some whip-overflow stuff there too. [Like, put 4 hammers into an axe, then whip from 4-> 2 population, and voila, you can get ~70 hammers into the pyramids from the overflow].
     
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  6. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Ok I usually do auto specialist , will change it to 2 scientist. Would be really helpful if you explain bit more on specialists , don't know there importance and how to utilise them and when to assign them. Other things I still have bit info but regarding specialist none.
    I have read other threads , everyone recommends bulbing philosophy , does early pacifism becomes game changer.
    Ok will attack afterwards with catapults
    Am I missing something here , I didn't scout near sheep because there is tundra with very less forest , should you even settle in tundra
    Was thinking about 2S pig but that is also a good site
    Yeah was going to chop and whip the pyramids
     
  7. Jellybug

    Jellybug Warlord

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    early pacifism is huge. the other effect of a philo bulb is it discourages other AIs from researching it, which delays the liberalism date.
     
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  8. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Got currency , building pyramids in 3 city , building another (fourth) worker in city 2 , barbarian city in South (thought barbarian city don't pop up in visible tiles) , connected cap and 2 city for troops and workers , building barracks in cap because I have nothing else to build , build a barracks in city 2. Thinking teching iron working next and thinking building aquadect next in cap for THW and building another settler after worker in city 2 meanwhile I pasture both sheep and horses and connect my cities.
    Spoiler :

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  9. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Ack! Barracks! No!

    Useful things to do instead:
    • Make more settlers, take more land. There's still several good unclaimed city sites available out there, maybe more you haven't even scouted yet. SittinDown suggested back around turn 60 that you could (and should) be around 6 cities by turn 80 on this map, and that was a good forecast at the time. Not sure if it's still feasible from your turn-71 situation given travel distances / movement times.
    • Barb defense! It's turn 71, your empire has zero units out fogbusting to shut down barbarian spawns, and you haven't hooked up a strategic resource (copper or horses) yet. On Noble you can probably get away with this, but it's a habit that will kill you as you move up difficulty levels. With 4 more warriors you could park one on the forest 1W of the northeast copper, one 2N of the sheep, one 5W of Ollantaytambo, one 5W of Machu Picchu, and you'd effectively be shutting down barbarian spawns from a pretty broad region around your capital. Then get one chariot to chill out in your empire's interior and respond to barbs that do start causing problems and you'd be in much more stable condition.
    • Alternatively, build The Great Wall. Most of the time this is not advisable. On higher difficulties AIs often get it so early that you haven't even discovered Masonry before they're done with it, and you have other priorities with early hammers. Plus it's rare to need more than 6-7 warriors out blocking barb spawns to make yourself pretty safe, which costs less than TGW's 150 hammers. But here... it's not done yet. You have Industrious and Stone, so if you try for it and fail (an AI gets there first) you are converting hammers to gold at a very favorable exchange rate which will help with your research. And if you try for it and succeed, you get absolute safety from barbarians in exchange for the same investment that could have built just four warriors.
    • Your workers are doing okay keeping up with demand so far, but if you feel you have spare production getting one more worker would let you do a few luxury improvements (a couple more roads, a few more forest chops, that sort of thing). And as you get more settlers you'll need more workers to keep up of course.
    • Warriors to garrison in your new cities for happiness and safety reasons.
    Aqueduct is right out. It's simply not worth it. Even with Hanging Gardens with Stone + Industrious, you'd be spending 100 hammers (Aqueduct) plus 120 base hammers (Hanging Gardens, Industrious + Stone) to gain 1 pop per city, and some health when your cities don't need more health. There are rare "perfect storm" situations where Hanging Gardens can make sense, but this is not one of them. Barracks, by contrast, sometimes are worth it. Just not here and now; taking more land peacefully and protecting yourself against barbarians is a bigger priority at the moment.

    Iron Working isn't a priority here. You don't urgently need to start expanding into the jungle - good empty land elsewhere too. You don't need another strategic resource; you've got horses and will have copper eventually when you get around to putting a city somewhere around copper + marble to the northeast. Code of Laws into Civil Service would be my play here. If you can get a pair of grass river cottages near Cuzco but worked by Machu Picchu you can start growing them to towns for an eventual hand-over to Cuzco and a big Bureaucracy commerce boost. And you'll want to be looking ahead to kicking off a Golden Age at some point (you're not ready to take full advantage of that yet, but you will be once you've gotten Representation and grown your cities up a few more sizes), during which you'll want Caste System from Code of Laws.
     
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  10. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    I took a brake because my economy is doing pretty bad.Will try to reach target

    Didn't realise fog busting importance since I play with barb off

    Ok will do

    Yeah you are right , maybe I overestimated barracks value

    Was gonna that but thanks for reminding

    After reading your post , i realise I don't need iron working for anything now , it is useless now like sailing
     
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  11. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Your economy is doing really well, it's not even close to crashing. With the gold, 4 floodplain cottages, a second gold available at cow/gold spot, and soon more cottages as you finish Pyramids, switch into Representation, and grow cities another 2-3 sizes... you've got a strong enough economy to sustain about 8 cities before you need to even start thinking about over-expansion being a concern. The gold-cow city site, in particular, is going to be a big positive boost to your economy within about 10 turns of settling it. Pasture the cow, mine the gold, grow to size 2, and you've got a nice 10-commerce 7-hammer city that's more than pulling its own weight. The floodplains site further west is going to be a positive pretty quickly as it starts growing some cottages. Marble / Copper can be positive if it builds wealth instead of other priorities, which is worth doing with cities in this early stage of the game if it lets you secure land that otherwise might get taken by an AI. Banana and double-gems barb city to the south can pay for 3 or 4 cities all by itself when you're ready to start putting workers into jungle clearance.

    More generally, over-expansion is rarely a concern after your empire has researched Currency. Between the ability to build wealth, and the ability to sell resources / techs to the AIs in exchange for gold, and just a straight +1 trade route per city, you can generally manage to scrape together a halfway decent research rate for any empire while you get cities grown up to size and they slowly shift from drags to net contributors to the economy; having that land puts you further ahead over time.
     
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  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Your economy is more than fine and you should be still expanding. Shoulda gone Alpha before Currency on this level....gives a bonus and allows you to start trading old techs for gold.

    Sorry, haven't had time to give attention to this game recently. Lots going on like RL and sports. But I'll try to soon.

    one road adjacent to stone city (1E) would connect it to trade network - trade route plus stone in every city for possible fail golding.stone wonders.

    I would be going Horse Archers on this level. Totally dominant and fast.
     
  13. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    Agreed on the HA's - we talked about that around turn 35. I recommended OP save the game at that point and try a HA rush from there with 3 cities on his own at some point. But I recommended a 'spread via settlers' game for empire building would teach him more than a HA rush.

    I think the AI's are still so slow, you could do HA's and skip the catauplts.

    And coanda's advice is all pretty solid for management stuff.
     
  14. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    As others have said here - given that you already have currency, are financial with gold mines and rivers, and have stone fail-gold capability, and it's noble - you will NEVER over-expand on this map. You will win domination before you crash your economy.

    With representation + caste system, you can still have a good tech rate with the slider at 0%.
     
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  15. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    O
    Ok I didn't think through , my reasoning was since after settleing a city quite near to captial slider shot up to -8 from -2 and so thought if I far from capital , the situation becomes bad
     
  16. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Now that you mention , with alphabet and trading meditation and priesthood and marble , I could easily build Oracle

    Will do it after chopping above

    Glad to have you back :)
     
  17. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    got both settler out , for west thinking 1SE cow , to take advantage of bananas and for west thinking marble 1NE , connected cities and horses , pasturing sheep , mids in 3 turns , building warrior in 4 city , buiding charriots as suggested. couldnt get TGW
    Spoiler :
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  18. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    I think you're better off 1 S of the cow. You keep burning lots of worker-turns by settling with things in the 2nd ring. (Sheep, not settling the stone instead settling near the stone, having to road to the stone and the pasture). You want the cow and the gold in the first ring, and you don't need roads to them. Just improve the tiles. You really should be cottaging the overlapped green river tiles between Macchu Piccu and the capital.

    I like your 1 NE of marble plan. Get the marble and green cow in the first ring, and open a port.

    Oracle is fine, it's super cheap, but eh. your tech rate is so fast, that it doesn't matter.

    Alphabet is fine, but the AI's will have almost nothing to trade. On higher difficulties, you're limited in how many techs you can trade with people, so it's not always a good move to trade for stuff like Myst / Mediation / Preisthood that you can tech yourself in a couple of turns each on your own. Plus you get hidden bonuses to researching things that are commonly known, so most of those would be very cheap here - 25% discount, and you can grab all of them yourself in probably 4-5 turns, which is plenty of time. If you do really want to get oracle, then you can probably oracle Civil Service, or if you're bold even try to Oracle Education, but be warned - Oracle usually gets build too fast on higher levels, and you'll never oracle Education in a normal game. Can be fun for a low-level hall-of-fame space race kind of game though.

    My opinion would be if you get alpha - better to wait to trade for Iron Working or Monarchy or something a little more substantial. Feel free to sell off writing to people though - your teching so fast, you can benefit by speeding up and helping your opponents. It's okay, you can crush them easily enough later. And if you're lucky, maybe one of them will build you an academy or something! Especially if you give writing away to a philosophical leader.

    About units:
    • Is that settler / worker by the gold cow escorted by a quecha? It should be.
    • You have 2 quechas stacked up around the marble area. Spread your units out to fog-bust.
    • You still didn't scout the northern coast - is your quecha on the sheep going to do that now? You don't need to parking a unit in your territory like that.
     
  19. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Yeah thats right , I had to waste 8 turns for 4 city never really put much thought into workers turn

    Ok

    Would need to stop thinking about wonders I think , don't know I just love to build wonders , really affecting my game

    I never really thought alphabet as tool to trade since I am almost never behind tech and they want ridiculous amount of money or expensive tech for there cheap one

    Ok will do it but won't with monarchy and writing , AI will build longbowman which will be hard to defeat.

    Yeah thats a bad habit of mine , have lost a few workers in previous games

    There were barbarians , sent another for backup

    Yes , he is gonna do that now
     
  20. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    You and basically every other player who ever started trying to level up. Myself included. No worries. And Oracle is decent. It's an ok wonder that is fun. There are worse.

    Losing the great wall is probably good - you should get a bunch of fail gold for it which is actually good for your economy.

    Ah, good call then. Stick to the forests and hilled forests in the fog to reduce spawning. Tunrda and Ice are the barbarians' favorite hideout. Until you get some units hanging out in the fog up there, it's going to get worse.


    The tech trades are never in your favor in this game on a 1:1 basis, but when you manage them well, overall it's a huge boost, both in terms of letting you make people like you, and just for getting something. If you're going to kill an AI in the next 30 turns, you might as well trade for their techs if you can. Sadly, dead AI's don't give you any techs, unlike when you force them to capitulate. Even when you make a really lopsided trade, the game rewards you by giving you a diplomatic bonus with the beneficiary, which you can later take advantage of in a variety of ways.

    You want to give them something to get Iron Working, or maybe Calendar. Aesthetics is a common tech to grab for 'trade bait'. [I should mention, in this game there is 0 benefit in grabbing monarchy if you have pyramids.] The AI on noble are really slow to tech though, so don't count on much from Alphabet. IDK - if you tech alpha, take a look at the tech trade screen, and see what it says. You probably want to get feedback before you make any trades.

    As for longbows:
    • Longbows are hard for horses, and swords / axes. But not really a problem for maces / elephants / trebuchets / a bunch of catapults. This is why 'elephants + catapults' is a popular option. It's low-tech [FAST] and pretty effective [because it's FAST]. Usually a faster attack beats a slower attack with slightly better units. ..........but if they have longbows, you're going to need barracks - but we're not at that stage. We're still in the 'fill out your land', and maybe 'attack an AI that is using archers / axes'.
    • It'll still be a while before any of your rivals grabs Feudalism. I'd wildly guess at least 50 turns.
     
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