Noble sub-300 turn space attempt

[jnebbe]

I've been messing around with hof games for about a month after being inspired by Anysense's game, thought I'd post what I'm playing. I'll be the first to admit I have no idea what I'm doing, and this is by no means the most impressive goal ever, but I think it should be definitely doable and should be fun.

Settings:
Big and small - apparently this is best for space, I've never tried it
Standard size
Standard speed
No barbs
Aggressive ai
No city razing
No random events
Locked modified assets

10 ais:

Spoiler :

Gandhi
Mansa
Wilhelm
Pacal
Louis
Elizabeth
Roosevelt
Zara
Peter
Darius

Chose peaceful leaders/good techers that will let me run them over (although I'll still tech faster than any noble ai ) Also threw in pacal+louis in hopes that they will complete some of the aethetics wonders sooner for failgold.

Playing as Ramses of the Egyptians

Spoiler :

Took a while to decide on which leader to play. Looked at leaders with ORG, IND, SPI, and FIN. I also seriously considered going an AGG leader or maybe even Gilgemesh and 2-poping a C1 CR1 axe everyturn and using that to conquer the ai, while putting the OF into wonders. I finally decided that trying full WBE when I hardly know what I'm doing isn't that smart and just chose my comfort pick of Egyptians.

The start:

Spoiler :

T18

Spoiler :

Settled 1E, mining->AH->bw->pottery
Scouted the area, 2 very close ai, horse right outside of borders, and SIX golds

T46

Spoiler :

Autosaves got messed up and this is the next save I have :/
Settled 2nd city for horse, was able to steal 2 workers from darius, and sent my 4 chariots in. Despite only having a warrior+archer, he killed 3 and almost the 4th chariot

That marble is going to be really really nice, I'm going for oracle which will also give me my first bit of failgold

T51

Spoiler :

Going towards math which will make chops into wonders a lot better.
The goal here is to capture Aksum, and get 2-pop whips into oracle in 3 cities while capital completes it, all by T70 or so. I will grab MC for cheaper forges, and Memphis will run an engineer for the mining GE

T55

Spoiler :

Gathering up outside zara's borders

T57

Spoiler :

Zara the genius builds a workboat for a fish he can't even work instead of more archers

2 ai down, time to explore south

T64

Spoiler :

Thebes already has 100/150 in oracle, memphis is slowbuilding it and I'll whip the 2 captured capitals into it as well.
Meanwhile sent all my chariots to the south. I have a single worker roading south through the jungle to make reinforcements a bit faster


Making sure the whips and chops line up (I overshoot Persepolis by 1 hammer and need to waste some OF building warriors )

T68

Spoiler :

Louis and Peter are quite a bit south, not ideal.
Louis has the stonehenge, I was a little hesitant to attack since I don't really want 2 cities with GP points but I'll survive.

T70

Spoiler :

DOW Louis, didn't realize he had a rogue warrior right next to Aksum


Fortunately his 2 cities were incredibly lightly defended so it wasn't a problem.
2 more cities and a plethora of forests are now mine, most of those will be going into ToA

T72

Spoiler :

Oracle finished, choose MC, Memphis is ready to 2-pop a forge and start running that engineer immediately, also get a hefty 350 failgold

T73

Spoiler :

Stonehenge will actually be pretty nice since peter has a lot of 2nd ring food.
Also, there's eight golds, 4 gems, double digit calendar resources, and even 8 or 9 beavers to the very north. Definitely no shortage of commerce.

By turn 73 I'm up to 8 cities, 9 workers (5 in north, 4 in south), and still have 10 chariots

Short term plans are just keep churning out chariots while growing pop, and putting any excess pop into wonders, currently ToA, also have to keep scouting since I still haven't met half the ais.
I'd really like to find some stone as well, I'd prefer to not build pyramids and just capture them, and then run rep+mercantilism long term. As far as other wonders go, I'll want GLH at some point and Mausoleum would be nice. I also want HG once I get a lot of cities, investing 100+150 hammers to get +1 pop in like 20 cities=600 hammers, or 1500 hammers/gold if whipped into wonders, seems like a pretty good deal.

 

[Qactus]

Looks like fun! Although Civil Service would've been a much better Oracle target here and probably possible around the same time with a more streamlined tech path. Self-teching Iron working is definitely a big no, but also the small techs before Alpha (Med/Poly, Priesthood, Pottery, Masonry) could have been postponed to backfill most of them.
I think boosting your own research will be the bottleneck with these settings, so try to prioritize Buero, Rep, Oxford, etc. And Golden Ages will be important, so make sure to have MoM before them.

 

[jnebbe]

T75-93

Spoiler :

Going to build a galley and when whip out a settler for that island

The original plan was to go calendar and start settling the jungle area but I think it's a much better idea to wait till I switch into caste and all the new cities can immediately work 14 workshops. Instead I go for currency->CoL->CS

Even though the aesthetics line isn't required, I'll want it for lots of wonders for failgold and may as well grab the music GA. I'm not sure how to use the GA, I'd normally use it for the bonus gpp and to switch into beuru, but I'm going to get tons of scientists from rep anyway and I'm also spiritual. I think I'll save it until I start settling the jungle cities to offset the sudden maintenance increase (also gives me time to build MoM)




Peter has 2 very lightly defended cities and I take both, both have graneries!




My army's moving at a snails pace through all these forests and it lets peter get a big enough stack in time. I ceasefire here.




So apparently pacal is on this island, with pacal's holkan's, peter having a big stack, and mansa's skirmishers I think my war chariots are no longer too useful, I have more important things to build right now




Economy is in a rough spot right now but this will help




Peter sent a settler down here, I was about to capture it but he settles this city, I really don't need another far away size 1 city so I ceasefire




I've just gotten CoL and founded Confucianism, and I decide to get this trade and both convert and grab OR, which is a pretty great civic.
Production bonus is nice but it also lets me put 1 turn into missionaries and then 2-pop them, which is really important since most of my cities have forges by now. I have a feeling I'm going to get a prophet at some point so I may as well spread this as much as possible.





Island city founded (sadly this land is actually connected to the mainland so I don't get the overseas trade route bonus), thankfully pacal's city is only getting +1 from his religion so culture shouldn't be an issue




Getting ready to settle this spot for another 2 gold




Thebes just finished a library, starts working 2 scientist right away to hopefully get a scientist instead of prophet from oracle



Finally meeting some other ai!




Pacal hates me atm, this (as well as giving him IW as tribute the next turn...) gets him to cautious and hopefully keeps my island city safe for a while






Still a lot of great land to claim so I won't even need to go to war for a while

The only concerning thing is that I see no stone (vs 4 marbles) , pyramids are unlikely to be built for a while

Also, I'm unsure if settling on the very south tundra island for trade routes is worth it


ToA is likely to be built soon and I need to get as many into that as possible (currently at ~600 into it), after that it's basically random which aethetics wonder is built next so my next failgold won't be for a while.
This is how I'm keeping track of that, I need a city to start a missionary/worker/settler/whatever on 1 turn, whip it the next turn, and then work the OF into ToA on the 3rd turn, this helps me keep track of which city is doing what.

12 cities atm, pretty good tech rate, almost at CS

 

[jnebbe]

@Qactus Yes I kind of went in autopilot, with double gold I figured I could just get whatever whenever I needed it so I didn't plan too much

 

[floydmcw]

Do you have a 4000 BC save?

I have been messing around with Epic/Settler(!), my current record is 279 launch (which means 294 arrival).

 

[krikav]

@jnebbe Ambitious to track in a chart which turn to whip what.
Do you know about the reminder function? Alt+M and you can set up a reminder. "Whip Thebes!" that goes off in 5 turns.
Perhaps not relevant for such multi city whips into multiple wonders for failgold, but it's a neat function anyway.

Very good play to focus on failgold with IND. But on Noble though...? How does that work out, do they ever built any wonder at all? Or do you have a timeplan for when which of your cities are going to finish them?

 

[jnebbe]

@floydmcw I can share when the game's complete

@krikav I'm only tracking this for ToA since I expect it to be built very soon and I finally have enough spare cities.
Of course it will be much more random when the aethetics wonders are built; Since I want to run Rep>HR I figured my cities wouldn't grow too large and was just going to whip any spare pop into wonders, but now that I think about it I have so many luxuries and +2 forges there's no reason all my cities can't grow to 12+ pop.

 

[civac]

What date corresponds to turn 300? Sub 300 turns seems to lack ambition.

 

[jnebbe]

@civac 1890ad iirc, never done this before so not expecting it to be anything special

 

[migalhone]

@jnebbe Ambitious to track in a chart which turn to whip what.
Do you know about the reminder function? Alt+M and you can set up a reminder. "Whip Thebes!" that goes off in 5 turns.

Sorry for the offtopic: Alt-M allows you to put up reminders? I didn't knew that, thank you!

 

[jnebbe]

I had a great idea in the shower today; I want to settle 10+ cities in the jungle area and if I complete hanging gardens on the same turn it will save 5ish turns growing to size 2 per city! Ideally I'd be in a golden age from music and also in caste+chemistry for instand 4 tiles. There might not be enough time, I don't remember if I traded away math, maybe it's still possible if nobody else has stone...

 

[jnebbe]

Spoiler :

Unfortunately I think my hanging gardens plan will not work, theres no way I can get the required tech plus 10-11 settlers needed before anyone else builds it




The short term plan is backfilling my land. I want 10-11 settlers and want to be in a golden age when I settle them.

I was originally wanting chemistry but I think I'll just go for guilds and then switch into caste for 13 workshops which all the new cities will work.

First tech to get is calendar; lets me improve multiple resources and also lets me build MoM (Mansa gave me calendar, I estimate the soonest he could build MoM is T115 or so, I want to build it before then)
Next I will get aesthetics->lit->music for the great artist. I don't want to be whipping much at this stage unless it's into ToA, and aesthetics lets me slowbuild 3 wonders at a much better rate than building wealth.
Next tech will be machinery->guilds. I'm keeping this for last in hopes that Mansa will give me monarchy+feudalism along the way





was a 50/50 and my 1st great person is a prophet, at least I can make a shrine...
Memphis has been running an engineer this whole time for Mining inc, I have to be careful and not finish MoM too soon or else the MoM+Oracle will generate in thebes instead of memphis and i might never get the engineer out




Just go feudalism for me Mansa and I'll love you forever





I mess up here and put too much OF into ToA, I was debating if I wanted to finish it myself (I have ~1100 across all my cities and growing by 100-130 each turn) but I don't have enough settlers yet so researching fast right now is not necessarily a priority.



Really enjoying this game, most I've enjoyed this game in quite a while! It's a very different playstyle and mindset vs playing a standard immortal game

 

[Fish Man]

T75-93

Spoiler :

Going to build a galley and when whip out a settler for that island

The original plan was to go calendar and start settling the jungle area but I think it's a much better idea to wait till I switch into caste and all the new cities can immediately work 14 workshops. Instead I go for currency->CoL->CS

Even though the aesthetics line isn't required, I'll want it for lots of wonders for failgold and may as well grab the music GA. I'm not sure how to use the GA, I'd normally use it for the bonus gpp and to switch into beuru, but I'm going to get tons of scientists from rep anyway and I'm also spiritual. I think I'll save it until I start settling the jungle cities to offset the sudden maintenance increase (also gives me time to build MoM)




Peter has 2 very lightly defended cities and I take both, both have graneries!




My army's moving at a snails pace through all these forests and it lets peter get a big enough stack in time. I ceasefire here.




So apparently pacal is on this island, with pacal's holkan's, peter having a big stack, and mansa's skirmishers I think my war chariots are no longer too useful, I have more important things to build right now




Economy is in a rough spot right now but this will help




Peter sent a settler down here, I was about to capture it but he settles this city, I really don't need another far away size 1 city so I ceasefire




I've just gotten CoL and founded Confucianism, and I decide to get this trade and both convert and grab OR, which is a pretty great civic.
Production bonus is nice but it also lets me put 1 turn into missionaries and then 2-pop them, which is really important since most of my cities have forges by now. I have a feeling I'm going to get a prophet at some point so I may as well spread this as much as possible.





Island city founded (sadly this land is actually connected to the mainland so I don't get the overseas trade route bonus), thankfully pacal's city is only getting +1 from his religion so culture shouldn't be an issue




Getting ready to settle this spot for another 2 gold




Thebes just finished a library, starts working 2 scientist right away to hopefully get a scientist instead of prophet from oracle



Finally meeting some other ai!




Pacal hates me atm, this (as well as giving him IW as tribute the next turn...) gets him to cautious and hopefully keeps my island city safe for a while






Still a lot of great land to claim so I won't even need to go to war for a while

The only concerning thing is that I see no stone (vs 4 marbles) , pyramids are unlikely to be built for a while

Also, I'm unsure if settling on the very south tundra island for trade routes is worth it


ToA is likely to be built soon and I need to get as many into that as possible (currently at ~600 into it), after that it's basically random which aethetics wonder is built next so my next failgold won't be for a while.
This is how I'm keeping track of that, I need a city to start a missionary/worker/settler/whatever on 1 turn, whip it the next turn, and then work the OF into ToA on the 3rd turn, this helps me keep track of which city is doing what.

12 cities atm, pretty good tech rate, almost at CS

I honestly needed one look at the start to know sub-t250 would be a breeze; perhaps even sub-t225. I mean come on - wet corn? Double gold? War chariots? You gotta be kidding me!

Hope you have fun in this probably incredibly lopsided stomp .

 

[Fish Man]

Also, got a t0 save or autosave? Pls?????

 

[floydmcw]

I honestly needed one look at the start to know sub-t250 would be a breeze; perhaps even sub-t225. I mean come on - wet corn? Double gold? War chariots? You gotta be kidding me!

Hope you have fun in this probably incredibly lopsided stomp .

You underestimate how hard it is to win early space. At some point you leave the AIs far behind and you have to research all the expensive techs yourself. Noble AIs aren't going to research Artillery or Ecology for you.

I've been fooling around with Settler/Epic. My best launch date so far is T280. This map is probably better than what I've been working with but:
- Epic is more efficient than Standard. (That's why all the launch-in-BC games use Marathon.)
- Settler is maybe easier than Noble b/c you get so many bonuses (the downside is very weak AIs that can research Compass for you in 21 turns, and the inability to get failgold from wonders).

I'll be impressed if OP can launch before T300. Note also that the settings could be tweaked -- surely for very early space, you want Pangea for access to all AIs. Also his civ doesn't start with a scout.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Very good play to focus on failgold with IND. But on Noble though...? How does that work out, do they ever built any wonder at all? Or do you have a timeplan for when which of your cities are going to finish them?

It's good to be positive and supportive but this actually appears to me as a significant mistake
I wouldn't advocate focusing on failgold when settlers/workers are still very much needed and the maintenance is under control. Failgold is at least partly responsible for this shortage. Example : there is a wet corn 5 tiles away from Thebes that isn't settled, yet. The number of improved tiles in Thebes is not enough - and specifically commerce tiles. At 550 BC, the conquest has been going well but I count like 3 cottage tiles. This means the economy will have a hard time kicking off.
If the land lacks in development, stealing workers is arguably just as good, if not better, than capturing cities.
The point of capturing cities being, after all, to increase the number of improved tiles that the Empire is working.

On Noble, the player should probably be very wonder-hungry, starting with building the Stonehenge (possibly with the 5th city).

Admittedly, it's a difficult exercise to pay attention both to the military and economic aspects of the game. These sorts of games are a fine occasion for improvement.
A worker shortage is one of the things that has the most snowball potential in the game (and that is not for the best).

 

[Anysense]

Good point about expansion. The principle is the same as it is in an ordinary game - expand as fast as you can while not going completely broke, so you still can reach crucial techs and go on with conquest. Bare in mind that you have no problem staying on par with AI in tech and the whole world is yours to settle, it enables you to go much further into the extreme than in a normal game with all the restrictions imposed on you by AI.

 

[civac]

I wonder how fast a peaceful expansion game with a truely powerful start and Victoria would be. Would likely require a large and very green map. I'm pretty confident you can have 25+ cities at turn 100 just by whipping IMP settlers.

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup You are almost certainly right.
I play way to seldom on noble and other difficulty settings to know what to prioritize and how timings change.

 

[konata_LS]

@Fish Man
For a DEI player like you who accomplished sub-250t Space, Noble sub-300t Space wouldn't be challenging at all. But OP is still learning. Since you are expert in Space, why don't you give OP some advice in tech path or help him in setting some goals ?
For example, you could suggest which tech to take with Lib (taking Physics or Comm is certainly possible on Noble), or you may suggest to set a goal of generating >800 per turn in 800AD or 1000AD.

@jnebbe
Glad to see you enjoy the game. Improving playing skills and having fun are both important . The wars seemed to go well. Some extra workers (built or captured) would make your Empire even better, as there are many forests to chop.

As @ BornInCantaloup pointed out in #16, on Noble wonders often get built very slow so failgold may come very late. In an off-line game some time ago when I still played at Noble, I started Mids in Ancient era and finally got the failgold after 1000 AD .