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Nobles' Club 187 - Elizabeth of the English Empire

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by hankinsohl, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Elizabeth of England, whom we last played in NC CXVI; we last played the English under Churchill in NC CXXXVII. The English start with Fishing and Mining.

    • Traits: Elizabeth is Financial and Philosophical.
    • The UB: The Stock Exchange, a bank that gives +65% gold instead of the usual +50%. I don't think this is a very significant bonus, but a late-game corporation push might love it.

    • The UU: The Redcoat, a Rifleman that adds 25% against Gunpowder units. Not too shabby, but not really a standout UU, it extends the lifespan of what's already an excellent unit.
    And the start:

    Spoiler map details :
    This is a fractal map with no edits made. The starting position was checked and confirmed to be viable.

    Spoiler more about the start - read if concerned about the apparent lack of food :

    The start actually is pretty good/awesome, although food isn't visible due to forests.


    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC187_Elizabeth_Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  2. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    Reserved by map creator for any map edits/corrections/comments should they be necessary.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  3. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Thanks for another NC challenge, hankinsohl.

    Where's the food? The PH seems to be surrounded by plain forests but looking closely, 2E of the PH seems to be an open grass field... must have some grain.

    Settling PH would move one river town and the marble outside BFC; making Oracle a far cry on higher levels. The three tiles in the fog of the SIP BFC don't look great. There a slight chance on a hidden deer but wouldn't bet on it. Of the five tiles one loses by settling PH, only the river town looks good long term.

    There isn't much a worker can do without BW so getting one a couple of turns earlier wouldn't help much... unless we find some fantastic land further south but there is no way to know this.

    Tough call this. SIP, BW, chop second worker, Oracle MC?
     
  4. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think 1S is kinda obv on any difficulty level. The extra hammer pays back very quickly.
     
  5. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    Trust me :)

    The start is viable.

    Read the "reserved" post (2nd post in this thread) spoiler if you have big doubts about what to do at the start.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yeh, there is always food in BFC, unless the map is cooked. ;) Both 2W and 2E of the plains hill have no forest, so there is something there.
     
  7. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    Nice to see some fractal unedited maps, kinda different from double river-corn starts ^^

    Played the first 40ish turns (deity) :
    Spoiler :

    I settled in place after moving Warrior 1S, having to tech AH + BW means I don't need more early production but don't want to delay research 1 turn.

    Settling reveals corn so of it looks like 1S would have been better indeed...

    Tech path : Agriculture - BW - Wheel - Pottery. The biggest bottleneck here is commerce so I thought even pigs wouldn't justify teching AH at 9bpt.

    Looks like there are several nice spots to settle. Ramesses is close so I guess these should be grabbed pretty quickly.

    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Scouting didn't reveal a better spot for a second city. The pigs look neat but require AH... Kind of a slow start, will speed up after some FIN riverside cottages.
    Have to explore some more, but for now Ramesses hasn't met anyone else.



    Oh and it looks like there won't be any barb defense needed, fogbusting with warriors works just fine. The north is fogbusted thanks to SIP ^^


    Edit : oh and feel free to argue / criticise my gameplay, that's why I'm posting :lol:
     
  8. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Spoiler After moving warrior :

    Moving the warrior to the marble reveals a deer 1 NE of that. That makes the marble a good spot for second city to help develop towns if the capital is on the PH.
     
  9. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    LOL :)

    Me too!

    This map is totally random - I simply checked to see if the start is fair. I'm looking forward to see how the Civ4 community fares on this map.
     
  10. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Deity Normal NHNE

    Spoiler T20 :
    Settled PH, Agg+BW, met Ramesses.

    Improved mine before corn to optimize worker moves, get an extra gold and build my first warrior quickly to spambust the north...
    Too late!
    T20.png
    That barb archer will ruin my plans to develop towns quickly. What would be the best strategy to get rid of him?

    Edit: Ramesses fixed it for me. He put a scout next to my warrior, the barb took that and some hit points, then died on my fortified warrior on the forested hill
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @jvdl
    Spoiler :
    Move two warriors into forest next to the barb archer? 3 if you want to be sure. :)
     
  12. Xpl

    Xpl Chieftain

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    Well as we know, there is always at least one 'food' source in the initial spawn BFC, so we can reverse engineer where it might be. As pointed out, there is 2 flat grassland tiles 2E and 2W of the PH 1S of the settler. Since there is forest surrounding all other tiles, I think it's a safe bet at least one is a food tile. I decided to move the warrior 1S, since this would give more information on the potential food tiles than north, as that is the main concern T0.
    Spoiler :

    Rewarded with a grassland pigs. Combined with the riverside PH 1S, I think settling the PH is worth losing the marble in BFC. The 70 extra hammers just from time spent growing the town are worth it IMO. Sometimes jumping to a PH settle is an oasis in the desert, but since we can confirm strong food, I definitely think it's worth.
    So much forest screams chop out oracle, but if so what to bulb?


    @jvdl
    Spoiler :
    Is improving the mine first better if your worker is by the corn by the time BW finishes, since you want to be closer to the riverside forests?
    About that T20 archer (ouch), would a fortified warrior on the forest grassland hill work after 4-5 turns?
     
  13. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    @Xpl
    Spoiler :

    I wouldn't try for the Oracle here, wiith such a low commerce and tech-hungry start it will come really late unless you sacrifice a lot to get it
     
  14. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Spoiler T41 :
    Some more turns in between work-related activities...
    T41.PNG
    The obvious continuation after AGG+BW would have been Wheel+Pottery but barbs are scary on my RNG. So the alternatives are AH for pigs with an off chance on chariots; or the safe route: hunting + archery. I chose the latter.

    That also benefits my helper city (deer). Settling south will wait because there no AI close to steal the obvious spots while on the other hand barbs are close to (literally) ruin my cities...

    The most worrying thing is that no other AI but Ramesses have paid a visit yet. Being alone with him on an island is not a good prospect.


    @Pedro78
    Spoiler :
    Busting spam and preventing settlements is one thing but there aren't good defensive positions down south so when barb archers show there ugly faces, the only thing my warriors can do is run away. Which in fact happened a lot to me, dancing around the bastards.


    @sampsa : Yes, there is always food in BFC but it's important to know that you don't lose it when settling on the PH. This is not a spoiler because as you pointed out, it is clear from the initial screenshot that there is at least one food resource there.
     
  15. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    @jvdl
    Spoiler :

    I settled my second city to the south, and Ramesses settled much closer to me in my game, so I was completely safe with 3 warriors fogbusting (didn't have to fogbust the north because of SIP). In your case it's a little tougher, but I'm sure you could do without Archery as well, it probably won't take long before Ramesses expands towards you.

    That marble spot for a second city is quite nice though
     
  16. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    @Xpl
    Spoiler :
    About mine first: it worked out well with border pops (finishing 2 warriors exactly on pop 2 for the second worker). With corn first would have built only one warrior on pop 2. For river chops it's a wash. The mine->corn->river route is 1T faster than corn->mine->river, but I had to wait idle one turn to finish BW (extra coins from working mine more turns was not enough to speed that up).

    About Oracle: being financial is not much of a benefit, wasting money on three useless techs. I think it is only worth when you can get MC but on this map that's impossible (not enough gold to tech three religions + wheel + pottery + masonry + BW in 55 turns)

    About barb archer: Ramesses helped. Lucky me.
     
  17. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    This gives you no useful information at all. On t0 your thought process should be:

    1. Where would I settle based on the information available at the very start?
    2. What could the warrior/scout do to possibly make me change my mind?

    Based on the starting screenshot, settle 1S looks best. The only other option even worth considering is SIP. Moving warrios 1S reveals one tile, which will be grabbed in either case. As such, it can not possibly have any effect on your decision. In this case it is also rather unlikely it could reveal anything up north that would make you change your mind, but as a scouting move that direction is still much better. The tile you reveal by moving 1S will be revealed immediately when you settle in any case, and then your warrior has to move back before it can start scouting further.
     
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  18. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    I'd argue that going 1S makes sense in this case. Going either 1N or 1S doesen't give any useful information, however the snowy forests suggest that we're up north, so the AIs will most likely be met to the south. And it's a good thing to meet an AI before T5 to get the research bonus on the beakers you accumulate by de-selecting techs.
     
  19. Gator Country

    Gator Country Warlord

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    I've been away from the game (and the forum) for a while, but saw this one last night and downloaded it because the thought process the start would require was very intriguing. Certainly this is quite different than the "typical" NC start, where there's some food visible at Turn 0.

    Moving N or NE would reveal more than moving S - in fact you could argue that it reveals too much since
    Spoiler :
    the deer would be revealed and you could be led to believe that they were the only nearby food source, and therefore think the best move would be to move N, with the bonus that it would put the marble on your inner ring.

    Of course, once you did that and then settled, you'd immediately see that was the worst possible decision you could have made.


    I suppose with some experience with the game, you'd conclude that grass tile that would be revealed by moving the warrior S would have to hold something, so you'd SIP or move S to the PH, but someone still trying to improve their game might not be able to make that call. You'd be taking a leap of faith to some extent.
     
  20. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Deity Normal NHNE
    Spoiler T72 :
    Looking at the land on T47 came up with this plan:
    T47.PNG
    That's a total of seven cities: three each on east and west coast plus the capital.
    My thinking was that since the inland is crap, financial coast is the only way: (5 to7) times 3 gold in each city, times 6 cities; that's about 110 gold + some scrap from the land, not bad. The south-eastest city look crap but in addition to blocking it has an oasis and with granary, lighthouse and forge it's a decent 4/2 whip spot, with some gold to spare.

    There's still room for one or two cities inland, if horses or iron pop up. Gems are tempting down by the river but it would upset Ramesses, who would probably get there first anyway.

    The plan is to start the to southernmost cities to block off Ramesses, at the expense of some maintenance.

    This is how it worked out (T72)
    T72.PNG
    This worked out OK. Got five cities as and where planned (except Canterbury moved closer to the horses, to prevent Ramesses settling in their face). The two inner cities will wait until later when techs are up. They aren't very good anyway and need to steal food from neighbors to get along.

    Production cities? York and possibly Canterbury.

    Tech is slow due to maintenance and diversion to Archery, which proved unnecessary as Pedro78 predicted.

    Got two work boats scavenging Ramesses coast and it looks ever more certain that we're semi-isolated. Let's hope we get along well. I'm not a good deity player (lose more often than win). My basic tricks are tech brokering and diplomacy (bribe AI to DOW eachother), none of which apply on this island, so this is going to be a tough game.
     

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