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Nobles' Club 187 - Elizabeth of the English Empire

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by hankinsohl, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

    Joined:
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    14,106
    Location:
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    Immortal, until 1130 AD
    Spoiler :

    London: 1S on the plains hill. Financial riverside cottages :)
    York: Corn+Pig(+horse) to the south-east. Built the Colossus, which was not very useful. Generated GS and GE.
    Nottingham: Due south from York, oasis in 2nd ring, 2x sugar, later also iron, lots of riverside cottages as well. Originally a blocker city, with heavy cultural fighting. I used a GE to build the Parthenon here, that helped a lot (also built a Jewish Cathedral).
    Hastings: Second blocker, to the west on the coast between the two mountains. All green land near rivers is good when you're financial. Gems (after ironworking) are the best luxury we have.
    Canterbury: 3N from London. Has deer+iron+marble. 1 off the coast, which is a bummer. Helped London with cottages.
    Coventry, 3S1W of London on a desert hill. 1 off coast, maybe 1W would've been better. Had a lot of forests which were chopped into Sistine Chapel. Corn + wine.
    Warwick: Filler city in the south west that captures an iron and some green land.

    7 cities in all, pretty nice for peaceful expansion. Order was a bit odd, first blocking the south and then filling in. Economy was a bit slow at the start.

    Tech: Agriculture - Animal Husbandry - Bronze Working - The Wheel - Pottery. This took quite long to get, but once Pottery is in you're in business.
    Writing (to start running scientists in CornPig)
    Hunting (Deer)
    Sailing+Masonry: Failed attempt at Great Lighthouse. Marble is nice though.
    Metal Casting (Colossus)
    Mathematics (Colossus pre-chops are cashed in now)
    Iron Working (gems)
    Currency (building wealth, trade routes)
    In trade: Alphabet
    Aesthetics
    Mysticism
    Polytheism
    In trade: Monotheism (Organized religion. Ramses happy)
    Literature (miss the Great Library)
    Music (get the Artist, use for golden age later)
    In trade: Meditation+priesthood+monarchy (wine!)
    Compass
    In trade: Calendar
    Optics (whip caravels and start looking for other people)
    Code of Laws
    Civil Service
    bulb Philo, start golden age to revolt to Caste+Pacifism+Hereditary Rule+Bureaucracy
    Paper
    Nationalism (1t away, this is the last turn of the golden age)

    Diplo:
    Ramses founded Judaism, spread it, and built the Apostolic Palace. That makes all Jewish buildings pretty good for me. He's pretty happy now.
    I've found all the others. They're fighting and I'm currently ahead of them economically. I screwed up the Astronomy bulb path, but I'm not too mad about that. Current plan is double bulb on Education instead, which is also nice.

    Long term, maybe a late game culture win would be possible. Financial+green land makes it attractive. Plan would be to Cuir-rush Ramses and take the entire island for myself, then work peacefully towards the Broadway-style wonders, turn on culture and win. Well suited to being Financial. Disadvantage is that I've already blown through a lot of great people slots, so infinite great artists is no longer possible. Alternative is Cuirs+space, which is boring and might even take longer, or Cuirs+intercontinental warfare, which is also not exactly nice. I've got the Sistine Chapel, which helps a lot.
    At the moment, I've only got two religions (Judaism, spread around, and Taoism from Philo bulb), so I'd be hoping to pick up another one.


    A question for outside the spoiler:
    What would be general later-game culture victory strategies? What's the best moment to turn of research? I'm familiar with the HoF-style, maximal Artist-bomb + towns strategy, where you'd stop around Printing Press + Liberalism, but I'm looking for somewhat later here. Is it near Radio/Mass Media/Electricity and those wonders? Is it worth it to use hammer cities for culture? Or culture slider 100% and hammer cities build wealth?
    Use corporations?
     
  2. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
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    Immortal until Turn 70 or so :mad:
    Spoiler :
    Have had some ****** days, and sometimes you just want to kill stuff. Horse near so I went with a chariot rush on Egypt. Managed to prevent them from hooking up copper, and took a holy city early. 97 archers in the hill capital, so I moved past that. Only 3 archers in a flatland 20% city, which happened to be another holy city. Lost 7 chariots, only killing one Marine archer. Would have taken the city but got too peed off at the rng pumping me so hard, so quit the game.

    I'm sure it would have been better to REX instead, there were some decent spots nearby (I settled 3 myself), and the economy was hosed, limping along at 0% breakeven towards writing. Maybe I would have had Alpha by 1000AD?

    Murphy's Law strikes again :sad:
     
    Fish Man likes this.
  3. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Messages:
    68
    Immortal to turn 61, 1560BC

    Spoiler :
    I've got a foothold, but it looks tricky from here on.
    I moved the warrior 1S, saw the pig, and settled the PH. Having read the discussion on the warrior move, I now see that this chain of reasoning had no actual reasoning behind it! Still, starting that way meant that I continued S, and therefore met Rammy sooner, which may have saved a few :science: on AG.

    Opening techs: AG-BW-Wheel-Pot-Hunting-AH. Now working on Writing. The empire:
    Spoiler :

    The settler being built in London will go to the horse/pigs/shared corn site. Then I have room for I think three more, if I can get settlers south fast enough. After that...? The land is poor, and Rammy has already grabbed the gems. Commerce will be difficult. I guess it'll be cobbled together from FIN-coast, the few cottages up north, and bulbs. London and the proposed SW city can chop marble wonders. MoM and GLib would be nice, anything else can be failgold.

    Longer-term... will depend on more sea scouting to discover if other AIs are reachable by sailing, but I guess it's a case of trying to keep Egypt sweet until stomping him with cuirs, then either going space or taking over the rest of the world. Liz with marble is pretty well-placed for romping up the top of the tech tree to Lib. Definitely seems like this is going to be tougher than the Cyrus game.
     
  4. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    51
    Concede at T85. This map is too difficult for me.
    Spoiler :

    T85.PNG
    The mini map shows that Ramsy and Lizzy are not an an island: they're on a yuuuge continent loaded with all the goodies up for Ramsy to grab. Sad.
    The only remote chance is to get the GL, farm GP's, spam cottages and work lighthouse coasts.

    However:
    T85 FA.PNG
    Ramsy already has aesthetics. Game over. Could probably continue for a long while in peaceful coexistence but it would just be torture.

    I've made some mistakes, notably chickening on barbs and researching archery, or research Sailing (lighthouses) but don't think could have made it even with perfect play and hindsight.
    The REX was a calculated move: the cities are net profitable (total maintenance = 13 while the two pioneer cities down south already rake in 15).
    T85 FIN.PNG

    There just isn't any enough commerce on this map. The problem is right at the start. The BFC (both SIP and PH) only has one coin from a riverside hill, one from capital and 8 from palace = 10 total. There is no gold to be had elsewhere except coast.

    To develop the river towns you need at least Agriculture, BW, Wheel, Pottery. That' 539 beakers. (AH is optional). With optimal play you could get four cottages up by T54 (12 coins/turn). I got three in T63 and a fourth later, so approximately 150 beakers behind perfect play on that. Could have another more 270 beakers by skipping Archery and Sailing. Total: 420 beakers. Which means the aesthetics spiel (507 beakers with 468 to go) would still have been a lost cause and with only one AI to trade with, it's not much of a spiel anyway.

    Other strategies? Horse archers? No commerce. Chariot rush? See @Pangaea .
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Finland
    @jvdl
    Spoiler :
    Well, Rams doesn't spam units much so maybe just a cuirassier breakout? Gives him time to complete them marble wonders, too.
     
  6. unas876

    unas876 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2016
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    165
    875BC, Deity

    Spoiler :
    Again, fairly crap land. All I want is a game where I can peacefully get to culture instead of watching myself screw up in war :D



    As you can maybe tell from the city name, I settled up north first. Also teched Hunting for that city. The idea was to start developing as many cottages as possible first, particularly the riverside ones. Oh yeah, I also sip'ed for that one more riverside cottage. I don't know how useful either of those moves were.

    Don't have much in terms of barb defense. Don't think its really needed since Ramses is coming in hot already real early.

    I'm thinking the best way to win this game is to try to get as many :science: per turn as possible and then midgame take him out and steal a load of wonders. From there... see how the rest of the world looks like.

    So far I think I can win. Let's see where I'll mess it up. :thumbsup:

    Oh btw, have any Deity players managed to grab the Oracle? I was too timid to go for it but maybe it would have been possible. I thought I would fail in terms of :science:, the :hammers: are definitely in abundance and a lot of those forests practically have to be chopped early anyway to get those cottages up. I kinda regret not having tried it, but losing it would have meant gg for a Deity noob like me I guess.

     
  7. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    By the time I reach MT, Ramsy will be launching his spaceship. He's got so much land and already a tech lead that, even though not very large is big enough that I don't see me able to trade a single tech in this game. For example, to beeline bulb philosophy requires all these stupid things like myst, poly, med, priest, mono that I need to research myself; as well as the not so stupid ones. I've been in somewhat similar situations that I continued with mixed results (lose:win 3:1) but always with some hopeful leverage that I do not see on this map. Better players might.
     
  8. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    @unas876
    Spoiler :
    You're in a similar situation where I was 875BC and dropped the towel five turns later. Looking forward to see how you will fare. What do Ramsy's techs look like?
     
  9. unas876

    unas876 Warlord

    Joined:
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    @jvdl
    Spoiler :
    I can't tell. He doesn't have Alpha yet, guess he was busy founding Judaism, which for him is quite a tech path.
    I went: Agri - BW - Wheel - Pottery - Hunting - Writing - Aesth. Not much in terms of detour I think thats why I'm a little faster than you in getting Aesth. I'm also gonna get two libraries next turn and will start running scientists in the eastern pig city asap + the :science: boost in the cottage capital. Made some small mistakes as always, but so far I think my position isn't too bad.
     
  10. Xpl

    Xpl Chieftain

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    I do now feel I was trying to rationalise a decision I made, which ultimately just boiled down to instinct and faith. Thanks for explaining the error in thinking.
    Spoiler :
    Just very lucky I suppose 1S works out better in this game.


    @Pangaea
    Spoiler :
    Decided on first go to try chariots too. Worked out differently on emperor, so only ran into 3 archers in Thebes and 2 in Memphis. However Heliopolis is founded further south and by this time maintenance keeping these cities forces strike. Do think a chariot rush could work with London and York with horses in 1st ring. However it looks like it's just us and Egypt, which removes our trading partner.
    Spoiler :

    2017-07-05 16_53_41-Civ IV_ Beyond The Sword.png

    The land is so poor for expansion, the forests are better used on chariots than settlers in this instance. As everyone else is experiencing, tech is so slow, not sure where to go.
    Not sure anything worth to oracle, nor feel GLH could justify the poor settles further south. Hill cap makes chariots seem even more questionable the more I think about it.
     
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Location:
    Finland
    @jvdl
    Spoiler :
    Well, that must be an exaggeration. :lol: You should be able to attack pre 1000AD.
     
  12. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    @unas876
    Spoiler :
    Well, my RNG must be in a particularly bad mood today. Ramsy got Alpha in 975BC and Aesthetics in 800BC :cry:
     
  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Have you taken my RNG? :please:
     
  14. unas876

    unas876 Warlord

    Joined:
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    @jvdl
    Spoiler :
    Well he does have triple gems :D But yeah that makes things a nightmare: when you are semi-isolated and the guy you're with is mirroring your tech path :crazyeye:
     
  15. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    @Pangaea You can have your RNG back any time!
    @sampsa Maybe I'll pick up the game next week and give it another try when I have more time and recovered from severe depression.
     
  16. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Having another go without the rushing. T64, 4 cities.
    Spoiler :
    Settled in place again and settled the next two cities in the same spot, have settled a 4th as well now, north for the deer. The capital is pretty good, but other than that the map is really awkward. Semi-isolated with an AI heavily boosted by commerce, and a TON of land to his south to gradually expand into, which we are blocked off from very early on (ofc we can use galleys, but those cities will cost). Techs are also fairly awkward, and we need just about everything just to hook up the resources we do have. Even hunting, yuck. But for food, I had to take it. But it was the most recent tech, and I postponed settling that city for a little while.

    Another thing that is awkward is that with so little commerce, and no happy, maintenance quickly becomes an issue, and we have basically nothing to build but units and a barracks. Therefore I only built the units I had to, held back on whipping once BW was finally in, and put hammers into unfinished units and a barracks or two. Went for Pottery pretty soon, although it took a while to get there due to no commerce (worked a 1-food 3-commerce coast to help, and then cottaged the plains wine). Have got up one cottage in the capital, and soon another.

    Managed to steal a worker from the southern punk, which helped early development, but probably means I can't get friendly. Basically the land is crap, though, and there are no good spots for a 5th city (unless I plant one east and steal the capital corn). So how to proceed from here? Not sure tbh. Everything is awkward. Getting HAs will take forever, and Ramesses will have copper and spears. Chariots suck. We have no copper. Don't know about iron yet, and that's obviously not a huge priority. I've queued up Writing next. Need to get all the commerce/research I can get my hands on. After that probably Masonry, to hook up marble. Oracle would be nice, but I'm sure it must be too late, since research is very slow. But marble is a good tile with FIN (1-3-3) so worth hooking up anyway. With no happy, we also need Monarchy one way or another. Feels like we urgently need every god damn backfill tech. But then we also need to start heading up the tree for Alpha, Math, Currency and Civil Service. And maybe Aesthetics+Literature for failgold and/or Great Library?

    All in all, pretty darn awkward. Hopefully I can mend relations with Egypt a bit, get trade routes, and somehow not fall too far behind in techs. Bulb Astro maybe? Or if there is iron in our little junkyard, maybe a Cuir breakout and take over the continent. It looks fairly big from the little I've seen (managed to scout better in the last game, although the RNG killed the warriors).


     
  17. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    Seattle
    Well, this game is...
    Spoiler :

    Brutal! LOL.

    Although the starting city location is really nice, Ramesses settled his first city towards me and his second such that I'm completely cut off from the wonderful land to his south.

    I think I'll have enough space for 6 cities or so, so not sure if it's worth attacking Ramesses early on.

    I adopted Ramesses' religion which got me to friendly and then settled a city close to him and gifted it to get to pleased. So I'm now able to trade with Ramesses.

    My tentative plan is to tech to cuirassiers at which point I think I'll have to take out Ramesses - he's got a ton of room to expand into and will be unstoppable if I leave him alone.

    Edit - I've no idea what on earth Ramesses is doing. He's stopped for the moment at 3 cities and seems to be on a religious fest - having teched to Christianity very early on. Meanwhile, barbarians are pouring into his borders. Good thing, as this might slow him down somewhat.
     
  18. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    68
    Immortal, to T135 500AD

    Spoiler :

    Currently at 8 cities, have just started on Lib. Built libraries pretty much anywhere there was enough food to run specialists, or even non-river grassland for cottaging. Tech path was so constrained due to poor commerce that there was no time to tech sailing for lighthouses, so this seemed the best way to squeeze out some :science:. Have leant heavily on both of Liz's traits.

    After completing writing I went for maths and started chopping heavily, but leaving most of the forests in London 1t from completion in anticipation of a grab at GLib.

    1040BC Rameses spread Judaism, converted straight away.

    Math complete 775BC. 1st GS 750BC, used him on an academy. That same turn Ramsy founded Christianity. He didn't have Alpha so I couldn't see his tech situation, but at least the fact that he's got Theo means he probably isn't going for Aesth. I started down that line.

    After Poly (650BC) I detoured for Masonry, because ToA was still available. Ramsy built it in 475BC, by which point I'd put a few chops into it. That gave a few hundred :gold: which was enough to see me through Aesth-Lit at 100%. Got Lit in 325BC, chopped the GLib in 275BC. NE went in there straight after.

    2nd GS born 350BC and bulbed Alpha, which Rammy still didn't have. He wasn't prepared to trade much, but at least his tech path wasn't identical to mine, so I did have some bargaining chips ready for once I'd got him to friendly. Got mono in trade 125BC, Monarchy 100BC. Self-teched currency 200BC, CoL 100BC.

    3rd GS born 100BC, but couldn't bulb Philo without Med. The tech situation that turn:

    Spoiler :


    Gifted Rammy a city 75BC, which made him friendly and opened up trades. Got Med, Sailing, IW. Bulbed Philo, gifted the missionary.

    Next turned I traded Philo for Calendar, HBR and some change. Usually wouldn't want to trade a Lib pre-req until I was fairly sure of winning the race, but desperately needed to backfill. First priority was getting the techs I'd need to build cuirs when the time comes, then started looking at Astro pre-reqs.

    Had a go at MoM in London, but with no forests left it was never going to happen. It was built in a distant land 25AD.

    Got the Music GA in 100BC (EDIT: whoops, meant 100AD), straight into a GAge. Ran wealth in most cities in order to finish CS while still in the GAge. Got it in 250AD, the same turn the 2nd GS farmed by starving London was born, then switched to Bureau/Slavery/OR. Also got MC in trade 125AD.

    Bulbed Paper and put a bulb into Edu.

    450AD traded CS for Archery, Theo, Priesthood and change.

    Starting to move into war prep mode now. 2-pop whipping rax, forges and stables, and putting the OF into Parthenon and Sistine. I have a lot of :hammers: into Parth by this point so I really hope someone builds it soon!

    I think I'm far enough ahead of Rammy on the Lib path that he's not a threat for it - should be able to tech Nat, especially if failgold comes in. But a little while ago one of those "most advanced civ" screens popped up, and he was only mid-table, so the possibility of getting gazumped by an unmet AI remains live.

    The empire:

    Spoiler North :


    Spoiler South :


    Spoiler London :
    Not sure what to do with the GS. Current bulb option is Compass, which obviously I want, but it's not much of a return. Switched one of the scientists to an engineer since taking that screenie.

     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  19. Xpl

    Xpl Chieftain

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    Emperor to 1AD

    Spoiler :


    Stole a worker T13 and pillaged the corn farm just as Ramesses improved it. an got to chopping out 2 settlers and whipping the third.
    Tech was pitifully slow to pottery and writing. Working coastal tiles and oasis in York to try and compensate. This time around I improved the second grassland hill while waiting for AH to get the extra commerce. Don't know if it made much difference. Order Agr - BW - AH - Wheel - Pottery - Masonry - Sailing - Writing - Aesthetics - Polytheism - Literature - Mathematics - Currency - IW

    Delayed Writing because I decided to eventually fill cities along the coast. Built it in Hastings T99 which was settled 1W of the marble since I wanted the production and commerce from it this time. Same turn popped GS in London and built academy.
    Ramesses built Oracle and picked Monarchy, and seems to have founded Judaism shortly after then, with Confucianism coming T103. Have no idea what he doing this game at all, for ages he had just 2 cities with a settler sitting in the capital, and has only recently built a third by 1AD. Honestly checked the victory screen to make sure I was on the right difficulty. Very confused, but will keep going until I find out otherwise. GL came T105 with lots of prechops setup at the start pre pottery since my 3 workers had nothing else to do for ages.

    Been shuffling turns into various wonders while waiting on techs. Going to try for MoM in York, but feel probably should have started in London. Unsure where to found 6th city so held off for a while, but probably will backfill next to the iron and work towards the western coastal iron and the river west of York. Will likely attack Ramesses soon if he stays at 3 cities.

    Felt like I've gotten away with a lot, and while things have been very slow, cottages are growing and first in GNP. Been living off 7 warriors for some time. Not sure how I want to play this out just yet, will likely be space, since I extremely dislike intercontinental warfare and am unfamiliar with how to push a culture victory.

    Spoiler :
    nc 187 1.png nc 187 2.png

     
  20. unas876

    unas876 Warlord

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    165
    If you're gonna post a writeup, don't forget to include what difficulty you're playing on :) Very important when others want to compare.

    Deity - 300BC

    Spoiler :




    No idea where this game is gonna go still. I'm kinda going for CS, but no clue whether it would be better to beeline Optics afterwards or Lib, whether I can even win Lib and what to do with it afterwards. Ramses isn't too far ahead yet, but 10 cities and more coming he might just become unstoppable. I gifted him a city but he still isn't friendly even though I am at +10 (can't see first impression unfortunately, no BULL :( ). Honestly no clue what to do. I have chopped away all my forests because there is like no production in the capital otherwise and now even getting the GL is a stretch without Maths...
    Hoping for a LP or at least a fairly detailed writeup by one of the better players here (nod @Pedro78 :) )
     

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