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Nobles' Club 187 - Elizabeth of the English Empire

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by hankinsohl, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    @Metaslab: I'm not sure if capping makes much sense here, might have been easier to capture those last 5 cities to eliminate him completely. (That's what I did at least.)
     
  2. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    @Pangaea
    And any one else who might have tips for late game play...
    Spoiler :

    The problem I have finishing off these sort of maps is that an AI over size 10 techs like crazy.

    Meanwhile Joao has complete control of the seas with lots of frigates.

    By the time I regain control of the seas, produce some units and get over to him, he'll have infantry at least.

    I'll give it a shot though.
    ============
    Another question - what's the best set of civics for extended late game warfare? I was thinking about Emancipation/Free Speech/Free Religion etc. to leverage my traits. But then I usually get bogged down building factory/coal mine/stock exchange.

    Is that the way to go - or is Nationalism better? Or maybe something else?

    My late game play is really bad, LOL :)
     
  3. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Replying to this outside spoilers, as it doesn't contain spoilers. :)

    The civics you mention are focused on science, while warfare requires production. The easiest to set up is Caste+State Property. Workshop just about everything and you will easily outproduce the AI. Another option is to build the Kremlin for cheap whipping of late game units. Might be good for a final push. Corps can also be very strong, but they take so long to set up that they aren't worth it in a domination/conquest game. Free Religion could be good if you still need to tech, pacifism if you still need great people, or Theo if all your cities are building units.

    Oh, saw from Pangaea's last post that you are now at redcoats. Then go Nationalism and draft, draft, draft! Drafting rifles is super efficient, drafting Redcoats even better. Drafting infantry is still good, but not so great anymore, so try to do loads of drafting before you unlock infantry.
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Re: control of the sea

    If you're still at peace, this doesn't matter. You can load up your army in Galleons, declare war and land immediately, then bring your empty galleons back home (you'll lose some).
    Another alternative is to ship your land units to the neighbor of the guy you're attacking, so that you can use relatively few galleons for ferrying, and then attack from there. (Needs open borders with someone)
     
  5. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    From what I've experienced the other continent is a bit of a cluster****, so all the Portuguese forces would probably be concentrated near the borders of their neighbors. You could conceivably land right next to Coimbra and then take that, Lisbon, and maybe 1 other city if you have a large enough force. Then, find their main stack and kill it, and that should be enough to cap.

    Moderator Action: I put this inside spoiler tags since it contains potential spoiler information for people who haven't played that far yet.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2017
  6. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    Not going well at all...
    Spoiler :

    By the time I tech to Communism and start cranking out troops, the enemy eventually has Combustion/Assembly Line and I'm losing ground in tech while barely staving off invasion.

    Attached is a save just as I finish off Egypt - from this point on I run into problems due to run-away AI tech/production.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Only have time for a few quick comments, hankinsohl
    Spoiler :
    I see some fairly serious issues in the save, particularly in terms of tile improvements and not least buildings. Why have you not built granaries and forges everywhere? No idea why you are building lots of lumbermills either. Generally they're pretty lousy, and I never build them. Better use out of chopping down the forests (about 2000 years ago, at least), and building better improvements on the ground beneath.

    Egypt only has two cities left there, so I'd just wipe him out tbh. That way you won't have to deal with his culture in your cities, and unhappiness because they want to join their former empire. Always a pain. With cannons and cuirs, it should be easy.

    For instance in your capital, the cathedral does very little for you, especially without stone. Horribly expensive. War weariness is brutal right now, so you would do better to build a jail there, or other cheaper happiness buildings. When the war ends it will be gone, but a jail will be nice to have anyway, at least in the capital.

    Should really continue my game as well, but got fed up of everything and started a new one. Vacation from next week, so maybe I'll do something stupid and waste time with this gorgeous game :D
     
  8. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    @hankinsohl
    Spoiler :
    Whatever you do in Civ4, never ever spend time worrying about an AI invasion. The AI is utterly worthless at those and won't pose a threat. If they ever send some silly units, you can laugh at them a bit before killing them and going on with your own business.

    Looked at your game and it seems you've fallen into the traditional cuirs/cannons trap. Don't combine those. If you go for cuirs, forget about Steel and tech straight to Rifling for Cav upgrades. If you go for cannons, forget about MT and tech straight to Rifling to draft Redcoats. Now you have an army of fast mounted units that apparently is moving very slowly. You got MT over 70 turns ago but the first AI isn't dead yet. 70 turns should be enough to cap the entire world.

    For faster warfare, you just have to keep constantly moving. That stack of cannons in Akhetaten should certainly not be healing. They should be heading straight towards the next target. Wounded cannons are just as effective for bombardment and there are plenty of healthy cannons to deal collateral damage. Cuirs could heal a turn or two and still catch up with the cannons. Though in this particular situation I would rather move out immediately with the stack of cuirs (including the wounded ones) and forget about the cannons. The cuirs and cavs you have down south should be enough to finish Rammy in 2 turns. (Yup, :egypt: dead t257, no problem.) Overall, heal less and move more aggressively. And don't leave strong units behind defending conquered cities! Having cuirs and cannons stand around as military police is a massive waste.

    You don't seem to be whipping much at all. Instead you have lots of workshops that gain +1:hammers: from Caste. Caste would be the stronger option here.

    And yeah, lumbermills suck bigtime. Having unchopped forests around your capital this late is a crime. :old:
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  9. Metaslab

    Metaslab Chieftain

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    @dutchfire I think you could be right there. As a general question, is that mostly because 5 more cities under my direct control are of greater use than a vassal, or because of the residual foreign culture and yearning-to-join-the-motherland unhappiness, or a combo of those factors?

    More generally, I think a lot of the advice being offered to hankinsohl on this page is also relevant to my game, so thanks to everyone for those comments!

    Spoiler Game-specific musings :
    Played a few more turns, and Joao is looking pretty beast in my game. Not sure if I am going to be able to attack with a tech advantage. Might have to choose a softer target (Mehmed - I think Stalin is plotting against him) and then try to beat Joao to something like Inf/Arty. I think Joao is going to DoW me one way or another, but that could work to my advantage, given how bad the AI is at naval invasions.
     
  10. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Well, I would say that usually the most important reason to have someone capitulate is so that your stack can move on to the next target. Cuirs have a finite lifetime and you want to take out as many AI civs as you can in that period. That reason is absent here, so the opportunity cost of completely conquering is much lower than usual.
     
  11. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    After some encouragement and/or schadenfreude from this forum, picked up the game again after considering it lost on T85 (Deity NHNE)
    Spoiler T115 / 1AD :
    Gave up last week because circled our continent seeing Ramsy had a lot of land, while Lizzy's land is crap; and he got Aesthetics.
    T85 FA.PNG

    Although spent some time making screenshots and write-up, apparently did not save. My last save was 1000BC.
    Followed the same startegy, collecting gold until academy, leaving the choice between Astro or Cuirs open.
    Lo and behold, after returning Pangaea's miserable RNG to its rightful owner, Ramsy did what any AI is supposed to do:
    T85 MA.PNG
    He went for maths! That turns the table. It somewhat of a cheat but unintentional.
    • T78 925BC Writing. Slide to 0% until academy.
    • T85 750BC Adopt Judaism, after all cities have been evangelized.
    • T92 575BC Mysticism, hoping to trade poly for aesthetics.
    • T95 500BC Niels Bohr founds academy in London. Slide to 100%.
    • T98 425BC Aesthetics. Ramsy does not want to trade anything for it.
    • T99 400BC Polytheism. Start pre-chopping 7 forests in London. Will have to do it without Math, but with Marble: 7*20*2 = 280
    • T101 350BC Literature.
    • T102 325BC Masonry. Whip 2-pop settler for 29*2 overflow; total chop/whip = 338 hammers. The remaining 12 from working one hill. No need to decommission my scientists.
    • T104 275BC Great library. Founded Coventry in the north east. It can work the corn once London has grown back. Until that, help building towns
    • T105 250BC Trade Aesthetics for Monotheism. Adopt organized religion, Ramsy's favorite civ + 25% for the Parthenon
    • T106 225BC Start pre-chopping Parthenon for 400 hammers in Nottingham (south east). The city has five forests and math is coming in. 5*30*2.25 = 337; two pop whip = 30; total 367; remaining 33 from working two forested plains hills (8 * 2.25 per turn)
    • T107 200BC Mathematics.
    • T108 175BC Michal Faraday has been born in London. Save for GA to catch up on CS and adopt hereditary rule, bureaucracy, caste and pacifism.
    • T110 125BC Parthenon (+50% GP). The +10 culture in Nottingham will also help on the border pressure.
    • T111 100BC Trade Lit for Monarchy.
    • T114 25BC Priesthood + Ramsy gifts Alpha. Thank you! Not sure if it made a difference but a few turns earlier I gifted him my work boat, which had nothing left to explore with barb galleys and all.
    T115 1AD
    T115.PNG

    T115 WO.PNG

    The AI don't seem to run away crazy. Ramsy is doing well, which is good because I'll own him. CoL+ Philo are four turns away and can back fill some techs. Ramsy does not have CoL yet.
    Reference point is: CS in 1AD. Should be able to get that with a GA seven turns after CoL around 300AD.

    I guess that's too late for Lib so things aren't rosy but not completely lost either.


     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  12. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Question: what to do next?
    Spoiler :

    IMO leaving Ramsy alive as long as possible to trade as much techs as I can with him and let him build wonders. Not sure how quickly Ramsy will be afraid I'm becoming too advanced.
    I'm working under the assumption Lib is a lost cause. Astro bulb is off the table.
    There are two options: cuirs; or redcoats + cannons.
    For both, bulb education and tech nat + guns. Trade machines, engines, etc.
    For cuirs: tech music, MT. Build horse archers.
    For the latter, bulb chemistry, PP; tech steel, banks, RP, rifles. Build CR maces.

    In either case: DOW, peace for techs, DOW again and finish him. He might peace vassal with an alien but that shouldn't be a worry.

    Any thoughts?
     
  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Damn :(



    (Admittedly not crazy good odds, only 97%, but not taking out an injured archer without cultural defence is still pretty bad. Welcome back preciouuuuuuuusssssss RNG :sad: )
     
  14. Xpl

    Xpl Chieftain

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    Emperor to 1525 AD NHNE

    Spoiler :
    Been adding turns in slowly, mid-late game is where I start getting fatigued with the game and start making rushed and lazy moves.
    Brief rundown of what happened from my notes as I played:

    MC - Music - CoL - CS
    Whipped MoM to be safe for T123
    127 music and GA with Ram popping Oracle GS and London too.

    The most interesting thing was literal gold popped in desert mine at Canterbury. City is still pretty bad.

    Ram founded Taoism making him have 3 religions.
    T138 CS into immediate switch to Bureaucracy.

    Ram Jewish shrine T146

    traded alpha and mono for calendar and aesthetics (lol) and bulbed optics
    somehow got colossus in nottingham as i was just trying for fail gold

    bulbed education, met joao t157 who has 11 cities at this point.

    Met stalin and charlie, trade to get HBR for curis later. stalin is plotting, likely on joao.

    163 4th GS, 164 lib into nationalism, christianity founded this late???

    At this point I've actually noticed Mehmed has capitulated to Stalin (lol). Stalin eventually DoWs HRE too. Unsure what to do about that.

    Somewhere down the line I finished Taj Mahal and went back to back GAs with the Music artist, switched civics to pump out 2 merchants and a scientist, debating what endgame to go for. Messed up my research to MT, so just hard built a few cavs and am rolling over Egypt's medieval junk. Will probably cap and settle the continent and go for space maybe, but looking like conquest is quicker,but also unsure how to adjust since I've just been on research sim city all game. For some reason teching to Democracy, probably to boost towns and get lots of cottages going.

    Does anyone know the optimal time to start the golden ages if you grab music and pick nationalism off lib?

    Do think the semi-isolation and sim city just made me bored.
     

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  15. jvdl

    jvdl Chieftain

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    Deity Normal NHNE

    Spoiler Turn set 1AD-900AD :

    At 1AD about get CoL and quite behind target (about 15 turns). Given the bad lands and only Ramsy who is far ahead, no tech brokering… had to research all petty stuff myself. At first give up on lib but with a golden age, pax, philo, parthenon and great lib (350% in London, 250% elsewhere) I will give it a shot.
    The goal is to bulb paper, edu (2x) and lib ~600AD, while researching nationalism; trade for music (MT), compass and calendar (which precede lib in bulb order); and cross fingers.

    • T115 1AD Researched Meditation
    • T116 25AD Socrates is born in London (GS #3)
    • T118 75AD Researched CoL. Trade for Iron. Have been assuming that with such bad lands must have iron and indeed it has. Two in fact. Socrates bulbs philosophy. Start researching CS.
    • T121 150AD After putting three turns in CS, Ramsy will trade it for philo. Start GA. Adopt monarchy, buro, caste, pax (switch from OR loses friendliness). Work 4-5 scientists in London, 4 in Canterbury (which has already quite some GP vested); 3 artists in Nottingham and 4 merchants in Hastings.
    • T123 200AD Researched Currency. Galileo (GS #4) born in Canterbury. Bulb paper. Founded Warwick (wine, coast hill and dry grass farms). Not sure if this is a good idea.
    • T125 250AD Researched HBR. Trade paper for MC + gold. Start building forges. Start on Nationalism. Ramsy builds AP!
    • T132 425AD Xi Ling Shi is born in London (GS #5)
    • T138 560AD Galileo and Xi Ling Shi bulb education
    • T139 580AD Finished Nationalism. Trade it for Music, calendar, compass + gold. Ramsy is already far into education, won’t give anything worthwhile for it. Start researching Lib. Most cities in research mode to get 225 beakers per turn, which should be enough in three turns when the next GS is born.
    • T140 600AD Vote AP for Ramsy. He’s friendly again.
    • T141 620AD Enrico Fermi (GS# 6) is born and bulbs Lib. MT is in the bag. Start researching guns. T142 640AD
    • T145 700AD Trade MT for Machines, Construction, Map and gold. Someone smarter than me said you better off facing cuirs than longbows in defended cities, so that’s it. Want to get optics and meet more friends. Start building a couple of triremes for upgrade to caravels.
    • T146 720AD Ramsy starts GA with Taj Mahal and switches to Mercantilism! Lose my trade routes slowing down the fun research.
    • T148 760AD Joseph Conrad born in Nottingham (great artist, GP #7). Save for golden age. Trade Lib for optics, engineering, gold and map (Ramsy is already on the oceans but not in straight lines. Can see Genghis east of me and Joao west, both four turns away.
    • T152 840AD Researched guns, finally. Meet Joao (backfill Feudalism + Theology). Gift aesthetics to Genghis, poor sod. They are both pleased.
    • T153 860AD Meet Charly, who is way backward. Gift a tech. He’s very pleased.
    • T154 880AD Charly wants to trade his map for some techs. Bingo! He’s on a big continent with Joao, Russia and Turkey and I am first to discover the world without really trying.
    • T155 900AD Trade Philo + CS for Guilds with Ghengis.

    Cities are building horses or forges; workers pre-chopping forests or setting up roads for military logistics.
    Two turns away from GP#8 and golden age #2. Slavery, Theocracy, whip & chop. The invasion will start around 1100 AD. Hopefully Ramsy keeps teching peaceful things and stay away from rifles.

     
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Been playing this to try and get back into civ. Not best game to choose really.

    Spoiler up to 1ad :

    Made some pretty bad choices here.

    Firstly teching both Agriculture and AH at start. Should of spotted low commerce start.

    So Agr- AH- Myst-Med-BW-PH- Writing. Grabbed Oracle 1240bc and took monarchy for happiness. Looking back maybe alphabet or HBR would of been better.

    Took some fail gold from SH.

    650bc alphabet and Egyptians are trading nothing. Start running science in most cities and switch tact to basic techs like wheel, hunting and archery then HBR.

    Built academy in capital and bulbed maths. Pre chopped all the forest.

    Spammed HA. 13 overall. 25bc and I have captured 3 of his 5 cities. Destroyed the 4th. Took IW, pottery, sailing and masonry for peace. Egyptians have MC and christianity. Not sure what else I don't have.

    Overall I have completely sacrificed any cottage economy. 4 turns from currency. I have a GP for a golden age. Thebes has SH, TOA and a shrine. Couple of settled priests too.

    Guessing the AI elsewhere can't be doing much better here.

    Really short of workers here. Given my lack of land techs early on this is why I didn't build more.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    @Gumbolt
    Spoiler :

    I've found this map to be particularly challenging - so perhaps not the best warm up game to get back into civ4 :)

    Based on your write up though, it looks as if you're off to a good start.
     
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @ Hank

    I have progressed my game a bit.

    Spoiler 600ad :

    Eygptians are now dead.

    I have 11 cities including 1 recently captured barb city.

    Tech wise I went lit route. Maybe a mistake? I chopped Great Library/parth/NE. Planning HE now.

    Started a golden age using priest. Bulbed philosophy with a GS.

    Main issue is I have quite a few cities with diluted GP pools so GS are not guaranteed.

    Probably should head for astronomy as isolated. The AI seem really slow teching here. On a usual game you would expect to have CS by now. I could use a GP on CS. Not sure Music is much help here. CS limited help but allows paper/edu route. Great artist would have limited impact. Probably should be heading for mono/astronomy and bulbing CS.

    A second golden age could be nice also.

     

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  19. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    @Gumbolt
    Spoiler :

    I like your overall approach to the game - with just space for 6 cities or so, it seems better to attack Ramesses early on. I think getting the Great Library and possibly Parthenon as well is nice to leverage our Philosophical trait.

    I'm replaying this map, trying an approach similar to yours but, I'm skipping Oracle to avoid GP pollution.

    The capital is really nice for cottaging - if you do this CS should be a large boon.
     
  20. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

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    Oh... one last little trick :)
    Spoiler :

    In my game, Ramesses was far, far ahead of me in many techs by the time my horse archer rush was ready.

    To ensure that I got all of Ramesses techs when he was dead (he wasn't willing to trade with me even after I adopted his religion), I gifted him a city just before I attacked!

    I traded Alphabet and HBR for some techs and then declared the very same turn.

    Then I attacked and brought him down to one city at which point I traded for peace - and then I wiped him off the map 10 turns later.

    The city-gift saved me numerous turns of teching at the point Ramesses was wiped off the map.
     

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