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[BTS] Nobles' Club 188 - Genghis Khan of Mongolia

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by elitetroops, Jul 27, 2017.

  1. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Spoiler :
    I have had this problem all game long before AI's would have had a chance to research Banking and perhaps Ragnar closing borders with me also blocked me from Sitting Bull. But yea I think Mercantilism is a big reason why. A few AI's are still running it and Bull and Saladin just switched to open their trade and I did get a few trade routes. Do trade routes take time to build to max level? Because these are still +3 or so. I know very little about this concept of the game.
     
  2. InovA

    InovA Immortal

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    http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Trade_route_(Civ4)
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/trade-routes.159047/

    These two pages explain it somewhat, but I made a thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/many-trade-route-questions.620408/) a few days ago asking for clarification on many parts of trade route commerce, still waiting on a lot of answers, but it also points out certain threads that give ideas behind how trade routes are set up, the exact equation used for BtS, etc.

    The pages' explanations:
    • for foreign To city, +3% per turn (up to a max of 150%) since the last war between civs owning To and From
    • +3% per turn since your last war with the civ (if it is another civ) [max 150%]
    are about the specific additive modifier that comes from foreign routes. I'm unsure if this accumulator (+3% / t) starts at the start of the game and at the end of any war with the civ, or if it doesn't initially start until you meet the civ, or possibly until you're able to trade with the civ (the latter seems unlikely). Also unsure if it's +3% / t across all game time scales. For 'Marathon', it'd be great, but for 'Quick' it could hurt a bit if the accumulator doesn't start until you meet the civ.

    So long story short, yes trade routes take time to build up to max 150% bonus. Also the other city's population and distance from your city affect what the base value is before the modifiers (foreign 150%, harbor 50%, other continent 100%, etc.) are applied.
     
  3. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    Hi Inova, nice job with the breakdown!

    I played a couple of sets on Deity. I planned to finish the whole game before posting, but my Civ time has been slashed for the forseeable future. Not sure if I will get time to finish this game or not, I want to use what time I have to finish my Brennus game.

    To 660AD

    Spoiler :
    I went for settling 1N, Mining -> Fishing -> BW. I think I then added Ag -> AH -> Pottery -> HBR -> Archery. I believe I traded for the last part of Archery and Writing for HBR.

    I think the best strategy on this map is a HA rush against Saladin. Being Deity, Saladin settled towards me very quickly, and most of his visible cities were on flatlands. Both Saladin and DeGaulle hooked up Copper and Iron late, but Degaulle is quite far away, and I feel he will have more units. Ragnar was fighting Sitting Bull for the whole game.

    With so much production, I settled 4 cities really quickly, each city having 1 food resource, and trade routes.

    The key to hitting a strong HBR timing here, is to work seafood resources and coast as much as possible and hook up trade routes ASAP. Then, once HBR and Archery is in, you can whip and chop out a huge Keshik army.

    I made sure each city got a Granary and Barracks. With 4 fairly well developed cities, our HA rush will be a little later, but a lot more powerful and long lasting. Granaries allow us to turn our excess pop into Keshiks efficiently, and Shock Keshiks can have a decent change against Spears. I am not too worried about protective Archers.

    I needed 2 wars to wipe out Saladin, as all of my army was badly wounded when I took out Baghdad, and I severed his metals in the same turn, so wanted to preserve my pillaging Keshiks as well as my wounded army. I got some techs and time to remake my army.

    Added 2 saves, one after the first peace, and one after Saladin is dead. Saladin vassaled to Peter just before dying, so I had to pay Peter most of my gold to avoid losing multiple cities (he brought a 15 unit stack with a few War Elephants and plenty of Siege) Fortunately I had a spear and was able to kill 2 of his units before the stack arrived, so peace was possible


    I have 14 cities, some of them are not very good, and I am quite far behind in tech, but with this much land, I should be able to catch up eventually.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    snail pacing to T30
    Spoiler :

    Teched Mining/AH(unfinished)/ further plan was pottery planning to claim some unforested riverland in the north... (most likely on jungle hill where Ragnar scout is, or maybe something coastal)

    Sigh, about 3-4 turns to late. Guess the grand plan is switch tiles finish AH in 1 turn and settle towards horse, while city 3 picks fish through cap's expansion. So far seems any plan I make is not for good.
    BW without room to expand still looks to expensive... maybe sailing for lightouses/routes/trying to sail through blockades...

    On immortal level I would chariot rush, for HA rush too low on base commerce (for my taste)


    snail paced update to t37
    Spoiler :

    Teched Fishing... likely last thing until comiting to something...

    Scout found some gold, without chance to feed it and way too far, below mountains looks like jungle block:( (parts which could feed gold)


    Filthy holy city actually blocks passage to fish... unless Sal techs writing reasonably soon.


    My guess would be accumulate gold on zero slider (BW for prechops), but after most likely drop clever ideas and limp through coast to Keshiks. Unless scout founds something seriously interesting through mountains.

    Looks completely ugly.
    p.s. opted not to settle horse city on PH, cause that would round to 1 more coin upkeep (at least untill third city.). At this moment 1 coin is better than 1 hammer.


    to t70 (1200BC):
    Spoiler :

    Went BW>HBR>Archery
    Fish city got religion spread so managed to improve clam, still no passage to fish.



    Guess, atacking Arabia is the only option.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  5. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    elitetroops and InovA, thanks a lot for the explanation. I played further and will post an update soon.
     
  6. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    1945 Diplomatic Victory (pretty much domination)

    Spoiler :
    At the end of the last update I planned to attack Saladin after I bribed him to go after Victoria. Before I had troops in place and was ready to declare, Victoria used her control of the AP to call off the war. I gave Sal techs for Cuirassiers and Grenadiers to attack England's Redcoats and got absolutely nothing out of it except he now had a stronger army after upgrades. I decided to attack Bull and his vassal Ragnar instead because they still had medieval junk (except Ragnar had Grenadiers) and I had Cuirassiers and Cannon. I slowly pushed through the Vikings taking all of their cities before i went in to attack Bull. By that point it was a largely modern war and his CGIII Infantry inside cities were very hard to crack. It was a long slogfest fighting an opponent who is at tech parity, protective, and a major unit spammer but I started really taking the initiative once my Tanks appeared in large numbers. A few Anti-tank units didn't stop them and the AI didn't build enough Artillery. After a war of attrition that lasted nearly 60 turns, both Ragnar (who had just a few island cities left) and Bull capitulated. My war weariness was through the roof because of high casualties so I had to switch to Police State and build some Jails in large cities. At that time I had the most powerful army in the world and simply wasn't going to stopped. Saladin put up a great fight with Gunships and he was close to Modern Armour but I crushed his core before any serious resistance could materialize. For some strange reason neither he nor Huayna capitulated till the very end saying "we are afraid of your enemies" after I had captured almost all their core cities and beating them 3:1 on the power graph. At one point Victoria backstabbed me and declared war but her attacks on me through the north were repelled and she gave me lots of gold for peace. Her turn to be annihilated never came. At last I won a diplomatic victory and 1945 seems kind of appropriate! I was probably 10 or so turns from domination anyways.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Congrats on being the first to report a victory, @dankok8 ! :goodjob:

    Had a look at your final save.
    Spoiler :
    Tip: Build forges! Really, after granary, forge is the next building you will want in almost every single city in a game that goes on even remotely this long.

    Next tip: Factories and Power plants!! You teched Assembly Line about 130 turns ago, yet you have only built 2 factories and not a single power plant. When you reach Assembly Line, get the factories up immediately. Usually 5 turns of slavery to whip them everywhere is good. Follow up immediately with coal plants. Add in Caste and State property to boost your workshops, and the last 120 turns you should have had more than double the production that you had.

    Universities were probably not worth it here and Oxford most certainly wasn't. The Oxford city barely as any commerce at all. Oxford is mostly only worth it in a strong bureau cap if you are heading to space. In a military game you only need enough science to get you to your final military tech, then you need production to pump out enough units. The important military techs are so early in the tech tree that usually it is better to build wealth/research than to build universities.
     
  8. InovA

    InovA Immortal

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    @elitetroops
    I remember reading somewhere that your newer, lesser cities should all build a Granary, then Library, then purely Wealth/Units. At least that was advice to help move past Monarch difficulty. I like the idea of a forge, especially for new cities with good tiles, but what's your opinion on this?

    Most of my average/lesser cities build: Granary -> Library -> Forge -> Monastery (any possible) -> [Barracks, especially if Nationhood is planned] -> [Temple(s) if :) would help] -> Wealth/Units
    and poor cities build: Granary -> Library -> Wealth/Units, or just Wealth/Units depending on how late the game is.

    Also for average/lesser cities, after building a Factory + Coal Plant, it should be worth it to add +:health: buildings, right? (enough to cancel out :yuck:)
    Also is Granary still considered such a priority building when you're in Industrial era and move from Slavery to Caste System?
     
  9. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    @InovA
    It all depends on how long you still expect to play. In every game there comes a point where buildings don't pay off anymore. My comment above was after seeing the 1945 epic speed game, where he had only built 3 forges over the course of the entire game. Probably captured a few as well, but the majority of the early core cities were lacking forges. In a game that long, forges should be built just about everywhere.

    Granary is always a priority building. It doubles growth and provides a ton of :health:. In the late game you have access to very powerful tiles. More population to work those tiles is very valuable. I'm not very fond of other health buildings than the Granary. Late game you should have access most health resources, either by controlling them or through trade. This is enough to support rather large cities already. Then it depends on the city. In space games I build health buildings where needed, but I don't find them a necessity in all cities.

    Out of your suggested builds, I would reconsider the monasteries. They obsolete quite early and need pretty commerce heavy cities to pay off in time. And in case you are aiming for space or some other late game victory, the early game should be very conquest oriented to set up a large empire. Units/wealth is likely to be more valuable. Temples are very expensive at 80:hammers:/:). There are usually better options available to deal with happiness issues.
     
  10. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @elitetroops

    I was constantly at war and needed lots of units. Forges would have definitely paid for themselves but factories and power plants wouldn't have IMO. Maybe in terms of raw hammers provided for military units, they would be superior by the end but I needed units right away considering that my late wars were in my favor but not clearly so. My production was already pretty dominant but if someone got a tech for Mech Infantry I would have been pretty screwed. It was the economy that was a mess partly because of no foreign trade routes for most of the game and very little city specialization. After 1 AD, I honestly paid zero attention to my cities. I could have shaved off 100 turns off of the finish date if I did my economy better. The war weariness was also the highest that I ever experienced in a civ game maybe. I had +5 unhappiness from "war, what is good for" in two or three cities even with Police State + Jail.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    @dankok8
    More production would have been the solution to all your problems. Maybe you were constantly building units, but still the amounts you've produced pre tanks are rather small, given the size of your empire and epic speed. By taking better care of your production needs, you could have fielded a larger army earlier, while still having hammers to spare to build wealth or failgold, which would have taken care of your economic problems. By having your army out earlier, you face weaker opponents, the wars are much quicker, there is way less war weariness and so on. Oh, and trust me, factories and power plants would most definitely have payed off! You can't decline a 75% production boost for 130 turns because you think you need some unit earlier.
     
  12. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Monarch/Normal/No Events or Huts to 500 AD....

    Did a quick runthrough, but honestly didn't have the focus and feel like a restart is in order. It's not unsalvagable, but felt like this is harder than it really should be.

    Spoiler :

    Went AH ----> BW which is probably the first mistake since that left an idle worker for many years. Also ended up with too much production and ran out of useful things to build.

    The other oddity was going writing before pottery which rather hurt as well. I forgot pottery required agriculture, lol. And then I never got a work boat out either.

    Reached HBR and pestered Degaulle to give me alphabet for it. Used alphabet elsewhere to get IW and other assorted techs.

    Kesheks were pretty awesome though since they were useful in breaking through the terrain though had to stop after Saladin got too many spears; meaning that attack was too late. Many workers were captured though.



    The tech situation looks pretty good though it will require some serious cottage building in Saladin's former lands. Also no iron.... which means I'm not really able to war until cav.... Degaulle looks like a worry. Wonder if I should have hit him first. Incas as usual were the other tech threat. Everyone else is ridiculously backwards for some reason, though at least Rags and SB were at war as an excuse.





     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  13. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

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    Deity, Normal, NHNE, Turn 100

    Spoiler :
    Dang, hard game.

    I got completely boxed in early and the AIs get so big so quickly! This map script is crazy. I was able to hack a little off of Saladin but with 3 cities against his 11 on turn 90 it was completely hopeless, even with 14 HAs. Had I gotten his holy city maybe there'd be something I could do, but he has walls and almost every city on a hill and so many units, :undecide:. The only way forward I see is to revolt to monarchy and grow my capital (I SIP'd so have all four food tiles). A massive capital running scientists might mean I can bulb to Lib + Cuirs and do something to get in this. But DeGaulle has 12 cities and room to get like two more up in the jungle. Gonna be a slog.

    I'm more inclined to restart knowing what I know now and use IMP to rex to 5 or 6 cities. Use the coast to limp my way to libraries, then go Aesthetics for trades, then monarchy + CS + huge capital. Cuirs might be possible. If I can keep people warring and the tech rate not too fast. There's just so much room for the AIs though...

    I'll be interested to see how Lain handles it. He was asking for a tough map, I think he got one.
     
  14. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    @Benginal
    Spoiler :
    Hmm... interesting. Is there really that much room? At 1200 land tiles it's what you'd expect from a low sea level fractal map, and there's one added AI. The land might not be very evenly divided between them though. And you start right between those that have the most room to expand, especially if you fail to grab that land before they do... Glad I could cook up a challenge. :D

    But I agree the map script is totally crazy. With the 70% land setting, it can generate maps with anything from 300 to 3000 land tiles. I wouldn't recommend using this script if the plan is to play the first map you roll. :crazyeye:
     
  15. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

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    to turn 84 -- not looking good.
    Spoiler :

    1080BC traded HBR for writing+sailing with vicky...
    975BC --- DoW on saladin -- I would have preferred later but allowing him to build spears was not good.
    Teched pottery with overflow in Alpha... and when traded alpha for HBR through Peter.

    Took a peek to Sal capitol and gave up HBR to sign off. I have no clue where does his iron come from

    Pics:
    Spoiler :




    RNG saved all three lighthouses and one granary




    I guess I will neeed to redeclare on Sal to get his cap somehow and then conquer eastside city. Easy to say:(. Without Meca captured land does not really work.

    Have not met one AI, at least I think so. Probably still can flip Alpha for IW/masonry, etc. One idea is to cottage up and another go through construction, conquer phants city and keep going ********...


    thoughts for future:
    Spoiler :

    I start to think self teching Pottery was mistake, likely could have gotten that for HBR. probably should have teched through myst>>PH to try trading for monarchy.
    Next tech:???... I think overall goal is CoL, as Vicky has Currency

    need to get library somewhere to start working on GPP... but library costs as two units at this point.
    I have 7 keshiks left +3 in production. Rheims is defended with axes only... in theory if i overflow few chariots, than c1chariots have good odds even against axes on hill, could strike in one turn. He is about to settle jungle gem spot too. Paris got Pyramids:p... ~10keshiks probably can get to Paris, he does not have HBR (worst case for peace deal) and is one of two budhists (with Peter).
    Rheims is a complete trash, but tasty mids... I guess I could use Paris wonders for GPP especially since I could use prophet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  16. InovA

    InovA Immortal

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    Spoiler Up to 1000 BC :

    I started as I said above, settling on the corn and going for Fishing first, attempting to have slightly faster tech because of it, along with the 2nd worker before settlers, so I could double chop the 3rd settler.
    :science: T7 - Fishing
    :health: T7 - Pop²
    :hammers: T13 - Boat
    :traderoute: T14 - Clams
    :science: T20 - AH
    :hammers: T22 - Worker
    :science: T26 - Mining
    :health: T26 - Pop³
    :traderoute: T27 - Pasture
    :health: T29 - Pop⁴ : 1 Worker, then Settler production
    :traderoute: T32 - Mine

    Tech path: Fishing -> AH -> Mining -> BW -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> *Horseback Riding* -> Archery -> Pottery -> Agriculture (otw, slowly)
    This was my idea from the start, so I'm glad it's working (for the most part) as planned so far: Go for fast Oracle (T62) to unlock Horseback Riding and rush Keshik. Seems like a great strategy for Genghis Khan.


    My 2nd city was a bit awkward, but I gave it a lot of thought and settled to the south to grab cows and fish:

    Saladin owned the cows and the fish weren't available until Karakorum's 2nd border pop, but Mysticism finished shortly after this city was taken, so it could build a monument ASAP. It also had Hinduism spread to it, and Saladin was kind enough to build my pasture. On Turn 64, the cows were mine!


    I haven't scouted too much, but can see really only 3 possible targets for my Keshik rush:
    Spoiler :



    Saladin to the south, De Gaulle to the southwest, and Ragnar to the north. Victoria to the east is a long journey, and I know too little of what she has.

    Ragnar has Ivory, at least 1 copper source (easy to eliminate early), +Aggressive trait, NO hill city for the capital or nearest target city, is the enemy of Victoria and Sitting Bull, and is a friend to Peter, Huayna, and De Gaulle

    De Gaulle has Ivory, gold, possible hilly terrain, and is a friend to Peter, Huayna, and Ragnar

    Saladin has founded Hinduism, has +Protective trait, has a hill city close to me, and is a friend to Victoria

    De Gaulle might not be a bad foe, but Ragnar seems like the better pick, for land I know of and diplomatically. I expect to take 3 cities, maybe 4, after he's settled his 5th during/right before the war. Then make peace so he gives me all the tech I'm missing. HBR will be good to trade others, too, at least, but I've noticed my economy is very, very slow right now. I'm not sure how many Keshik to wait for, but I'm at 5, should have 8 by T77. Also I have 3 barracks and 1 ger, so my Keshik should be well trained. Those from the capital (with ger) can even double promote for +bonus vs archers or melee :)

    My long-term goal is to befriend Victoria, and possibly Saladin and De Gaulle. Sitting Bull is everyone's enemy right now, so I don't care what happens with him, and the others seem farther away to be noteworthy. Huayna may be just east of De Gaulle, but meh. I've been gifting Clams and Pig to Victoria practically since we met (T34 and T39), so she's already giving a +:) for the years of gifts. I figure if the 4 of us all become Hindu, we'll be great friends. I may also liberate a poor city or 2 among them.

    Might also go for Ele-pult against Saladin for that holy city :mischief:

    T75:



    Spoiler Up to 375 AD - Defeat! :

    T75 - Traded Med + HBR to De Gaulle for Agg + IW
    T80 - DoW on Ragnar! 8 Keshik to start it off, feel like I need 14 before DoW
    - Take 1st city
    T81 - Peter DoW on me! - bribed, no army anywhere close
    T82 - Take Viking Capital
    T83 - England and France are Buddhist, Saladin asks me to become Hindu. I accept, intending to convert to Buddhism later.
    T84 - Lose Viking Capital
    T85 - Super medic made
    T86 - Copper to De Gaulle for Gold
    - Myst to Russia for peace
    T90 - HBR + Med + PH to Vic for Alpha
    - She gains (-1) relation for religion! Never knew Med/PH was necessary for that effect
    - Gift cow to Saladin
    T92 - HBR + Alpha to Saladin for Monarchy
    T94 - Med + Poly to Russia for Math (I had 201/405)
    - Russia is plotting! But we have the peace treaty, so it needs to be intended for someone else
    T95 - Gift fish to Saladin
    T97 - Took 2nd city
    T100 - Took Viking Cap with my final effort! Even had to face a War Elephant with my Keshik and won a risky 50/50 with my super medic, whew.
    T103 - Ragnar peace for Construction!
    - Adopt Hereditary Rule
    - I'm at 6 cities, Ragnar is down to 2, should be an easy follow up kill
    T105 - England is only at 4 cities still?! They have a great tech lead, but I'm sure it'll fall off.
    T107 - Construction to England for Mono + 90g
    - Sell wheat to England for 2gpt
    T109 - French are plotting! He's pleased/friendly with the east; Annoyed with Saladin; +0 Cautious with me...
    T113 - Great Prophet - how should I use him? ...hmm... Golden Age doesn't look good based on my current empire, holding onto him until I want a Golden Age costs 1gpt, I can barely afford that right now. A super spec feels good, but I think it'd be stupid not to bulb Theology for trading.
    T115 - Tough call here, 2 possible strategies I see:
    = A strong Bureaucracy capital (Academy+ GLib) in Karakorum or Nidaros (Viking's old cap) looks nice and could lead to a standard cuir rush/breakout off of 8 - 9 cities.
    = Vassalage + Theocracy for medieval war to finish off the Vikings and sweep the technologically backward Native Americans (my European ancestors would be proud)
    - I think I choose the latter! I've never used either of those civics and I'm pretty used to the former, so this looks more fun, though more challenging.
    All my cities' snapshots:
    Spoiler :

    T117 - Take Barb city, lost 2 Keshik
    - Theo to Peter for Currency
    - Sell Med to S. Bull for 40g
    - Theo + Constr. + 55g to De Gaulle for Feudalism (better to invest a little more :science: myself instead of trade 55:gold:, right?)
    - Switch to Vassalage + Theocracy
    T118 - Cancel most gifts and start selling them, +14gpt
    T120 - Clam to Russia for +3gpt
    - Start scouting for French/Russian stacks more
    T123 - Metal Casting! Start forges in all cities except new barb city and Hindu missionary city
    - Am I focussing on Gers and Theocracy too much? 3-4 Gers will be up, think those hammers put into another unit could be better.
    T126 - Ragnar peace vassals to France...... FUUUUUUUUUU-
    - OH THERE'S THE STACK. WELP.

    Spoiler :



    T130 - Lost the city
    Spoiler :




    Dang. Liked my ideas and wanted to see where they'd go, but got tunnel-visioned and sloppy, didn't take the time to go Buddhist like I wanted (no Buddhist cities, though I guess open borders with Inca could've invited missionaries). I felt like Saladin was a real powerhouse and feared him more than France, so I was starting to like being Hindu. I also felt safe because I was on the cusp of huge, highly experienced unit production, but needed another 10 turns or so to start being safe. Scouting and better diplomatic choices towards France could've prevented this.

    Maybe the game is still salvagable and I could give De Gaulle MC for peace, but this is just demoralizing, and I'm willing to call it from here, at least for now. :(
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  17. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    @InovA
    Seems you left out the interesting part from 1 AD-375 AD.

    Ah, fixed. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  18. InovA

    InovA Immortal

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    Lol, misclicked and posted before I was done
     
  19. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    @InovA
    Spoiler :
    Urgh, peace vassaling can really screw you over. In case you didn't know, an AI peace vassaling while at war acts just like a war bribe. Ragnar bribed De Gaulle to war against you and payed by surrendering as a vassal. The same rules apply as for when an AI can be normally bribed to war. De Gaulle can be bribed at pleased, so to prevent it you'd have get a peace treaty with him somehow before starting the final war against Rags, or get De Gaulle involved in some war himself. He wouldn't take a peace vassal while sporting a red fist. Bribing him on Ragnar would have been pretty safe here. He can't capitulate Rags until he gets the necessary war success, which he would never get.

    Turfan fell pretty quickly, looks like he bombarded only one turn. Did you whip walls? With even a few cats in the stack, they will just about always bombard all of your walls away before attacking, which can buy you a few more turns to bring in defenders.
     
  20. InovA

    InovA Immortal

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    @elitetroops
    Spoiler :
    I've never had to make walls before, so I never have. But after 1 turn of 3-4 catapults focusing down my defenses instead of just collapsing on the city, I realized I should've whipped them instead of another elephant. And Ragnar and I were still at peace, T127 is when France DoW me, so a turn after the peace vassal and a turn after his stack was perfectly prepared to push. Can the AI make "trades" where they plan to peace vassal as long as the other plans to DoW several turns in advance? Or do you mean it's possible that De Gaulle's plotting from T109 could've possibly been towards Saladin, but Ragnar was able to bribe him onto me?

    After seeing the stack I tried the "demand 5 gold" thing for 10 turn peace treaty out of desperation. And so do you mean if I DoW'd Ragnar before he peace vassaled, I'd have the option to bribe De Gaulle onto Ragnar even though De Gaulle was plotting?
     

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