[BTS] Nobles' Club 192 - Huayna Capac

[Pedro78]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Huayna Capac of the Inca, whom we last played in NC CXLVIII. The Inca start with Mysticism and Agriculture.

• Traits : Huayna Capac is Industrious and Financial
• The UB: the Terrace, a Granary with an additional 2 culture per turn

• The UU: the Quechua, a Warrior that has a 100% combat bonus against archery units and starts with Combat I

And the start :

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea. Solid shoreline. Everything else standard.

Spoiler edits :

Swapped around a few AIs

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here. Fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

• 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
• 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
• 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
• 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
• continent if applicable, etc)
• 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
• End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 189 Mao Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

For most of you who play Normal speed / NHNE on Monarch and above, I zipped the starting saves with the barbarian techs already added so you don't have to open WorldBuilder.

GL & HF

 

[salty mud]

Awesome. Can't wait to give this a shot on LoR. From the initial screenshot I'm seeing a multipurpose capital city - some nice cottage land but also a potential production powerhouse. I'd probably farm the flood plains and grassland and mine everything around it.

 

[Pedro78]

@salty mud I don't know about LoR, but in regular BtS river cottages are usually better tiles to work than mines, especially FIN capital cottages.

About Quechua rushes:

These are the rough requirements to take Archer-defended cities -

• 2 Archers not on a hill - 6 Qs. Can go with 5 Qs if no cultural defenses, but 6 is safer
• 2 protective Archers not on a hill - 8-9 Qs. Can go with 7-8 with no cultural defenses
• 2 Archers on a hill - 9-10 Qs. Can be 8-9 with no cultural defenses
• 2 protective Archers on a hill - just. don't.
• Same thing with 2 Archers on a hill and 40% cultural defenses

Of course you can always get lucky.. and unlucky.

Sometimes an AI will defend its second city with a single Archer. In this case, Protective or not, it's worth taking. If a city has more than 2 Archers in it in the very early game, it means that a Settler is coming soon. It will leave the city with its escorts and leave only 1-2 Archers in the city.. just wait. Don't stay at war with an AI when you're not taking cities. In 99% cases it's best to take a ceasefire after taking an AI's city with Qs. Staying at war will only make it spam Archers so you might not be able to take more cities.

 

[SittinDown]

About Quechua rushes:

These are the rough requirements to take Archer-defended cities -

Of course, the odds change if you attack a barb archer ahead of time and get an +25 archery promotion. Then, even against a hill archer, you have +50% chance!

 

[bdubbs]

Oooh HC on a pangea map. Might as well have a go at it on emp, moving onto a PH is an option. Will probably move the Quecha 1 sw onto the grass hill and see if there's any resources to be gained settling on the PH 1w of the settler. Can't say I'm very familiar with quecha rushes, if you have a close by neighbor to assault does it make more sense to play normally to 2 cities or go straight for mining / BW and pump out quechas immediately after the first worker?

 

[Fippy]

For Q rushes you build them with your best hammers tile (here settling on ph and working another one is good lol), before any workers or other stuff
AIs should provide you with free captured ones.

 

[bdubbs]

hm, I still went worker first I wonder how many turns I could have shaved off my rush that way.

played through quickly to T45, emperor no huts no events.

Spoiler :

Settled the PH 1W of the settler as there didn't appear to be anything lost from doing so. Mining / BW / AH / Road, working on pottery. Improved wheat, farmed FP, built 5 quechas with 1 chop and put 1 chop followed by a 2 pop whip for a settler. Settled the clams / copper to the north. Dow'd India on T38 with 5 quechas, and conquered India on T39 as Delhi was still their only city. Tons of a seafood, a dry corn and lots of forests. Prime location to chop a wonder, run specialists, or whip units.

So far this one is playing the way you'd expect a NC game to play. The map seems pretty big, once Inda is taken care of there's a lot of empty real esate to the north. I've met Hatty and Zara, both of them appear to be a decent distance away. One thing that's concerning is there isn't a lot of food outside the 2 capitals. The strongest food tile I've found in the general area is a grass cow. I'm thinking another city on the wet wine probably makes sense here to stay on the river and pick up those cows. At some point a city on the beavers and another on the horse make sense but both seem like pretty worthless endeavors right now.

These maps are definitely where I struggle the most. Without obvious food tiles to settle around it's hard to see any strong city sites other than a couple slow growing cottage cities going up the river.

 

[Pedro78]

Of course, the odds change if you attack a barb archer ahead of time and get an +25 archery promotion. Then, even against a hill archer, you have +50% chance!

Cover-promoted Quechuas are good, but not game-changing. From my experience, 2 cover Qs = 3 regular Qs when attacking an Archer-defended city.

 

[SittinDown]

Cover-promoted Quechuas are good, but not game-changing. From my experience, 2 cover Qs = 3 regular Qs when attacking an Archer-defended city.

Fortunately, this is one thing in the game we can pretty easily experiment with.

I made this spreadsheet from the world builder. I have not yet tested the difference with Cover promotion.

Summary:

• Flat - non-protected: 1-3 losses.
• Hills - protected: 7-8 losses.
• Flat - protected: 2-4 losses.

This is a small sample set with unpromoted quechas.... and RNG could push your actual losses higher. the main contributor to very high losses on hills-protected is whether the first few units do any damage at all. once you crack down a 3 to something around 2, the wins tend to pile up.

Of course, you'll want extra units beyond the losses to hold the city afterwards.

 

[ArchGhost]

Emperor, No Events, No Huts (huts were on in the no huts save? I turned them off too in Custom)

Planned to play real quick to 1000BC, ran over a bit because

Spoiler :

I was close to killing Gandhi right then with a quick surge of axes + like 8 leftover Quechas built for choking/garrisons




Justin in the upper left there, with the Great Wall


Went AH > Mining > BW > Wheel > Pottery > Fishing then Writing. I did build a worker first even though this spot is just about perfect for Quechua spam (PH settle + PHF tile without losing food tiles? lol) because I didn't want to rely on finding someone. Indeed I scouted in the wrong direction first (North+East) until Gandhi's scout made me turn around. Nobody that I know even had Writing when I completed it so decided to self-tech Alpha or I'll be waiting for years to trade (I do know that Willem is on the map, accidental glance at the custom scenario settings screen, maybe he went for it?) Should be some fireworks, but since Gandhi is gone and Justin is close I'll be safe from him at least sharing his religion. Gilgamesh and which way he aligns looks to be the problem in the future.

Choked Gandhi while expanding, didn't commit to a kill until I saw the Bronze city site. Stole 3 workers and killed 4? Archers in the open, he only had 3 + a settler he kept trying to escort inside Delhi when the sacrificial axes got there. Pretty simple to poach the archers in settling parties with Cover Quechua, even in that forest: keep two groups a move away from the city, he walks out, you threaten both the city and the settler party, he runs the settler back in, you kill the archers he leaves outside, ideally combining both groups onto the kill zone to protect the injured from reprisal. I guess that "don't stay at war" bit is for higher up where there's not time to catch the settling parties coming out? Or scary Deity where they get 3 cities for free pretty much and can out-spam you with 15 hammer archers? I'd rather not rack up the negative diplo with Zara too high through multiple DoW (Hattie is less of a concern) even if it is a safer way to steal more workers/keep them weaker.

In any case, similar to Napoleon in the last game he spent a ton of hammers into things other than archers anyway, probably due to that fishing start. He work-boated all the resources, built a Granary as well as the normal Barracks they do, built a settler he couldn't use and replaced his worker (they start with one on Emperor I think) twice, all while at war with Quechas standing in his borders.
Whatever Gandhi

 

[Pedro78]

huts were on in the no huts save? I turned them off too in Custom

There are two different saves: NC192 Huayna Emperor and NC192 Huayna Emperor - Huts. The first one has no huts and the second one has huts, I think you mixed things up

 

[salty mud]

So here's my first few turns playing this game on Monarch, no huts, epic speed with Legends of Revolution Mod.

Spoiler :

I move my Quecha onto the hill for a greater view around and see nothing of great value, so no reason not to settle in place. Cuzco is founded in 4000 BC. I already have agriculture, so my first technology is animal husbandry for the sheep in the southeast. I'm not impressed with the plains land to the west. 1 per tile and no apparent food resources nearby spells trouble.

Journeying north reveals a slightly better picture. The river tiles and clam can definitely be leveraged, making the most of Huayna's financial trait. A tasty floodplain tile too. I'm thinking of settling next at the mouth of the river, 2W of the clams.
Also, look who I've bumped into! Everyone's favourite pushover, Gandhi. Could he be the first victim of my Quecha rush?

I've researched AH, and despite the game encouraging me to found Buddhism, I'm going with Mining instead. I can improve all the food resources in my area and there's hills to be improved, along with a great deal of forest. Mining and Bronze Working seem the logical next steps. I can chop out those Quechas in no time.

And here is Gandhi, very close to me indeed. A rush on his capital would be a very tantalising prospect. Only problem is his capital city is some way away from mine, so it may remain rebellious after I take it. Definitely worth trying though, I think. I wonder if the Wine and Cows can be leveraged also, giving me another riverside city to exploit Huayna's financial trait.

All the more reason to strike Gandhi quickly - I want those horses! I can't see what resources he has by his city, but being a capital, he must have at least two food resources.

So from here my plan is as follows: If Gandhi has any workers, steal them! Best to cripple him early. Research BW and whip/chop out Quechas. March them over to Gandhi and take him out of the game ASAP. Settle the river valley, utilising the lovely Clams and riverside tiles. Continue exploring.

Looking forward to see how this game develops.

 

[Pedro78]

@salty mud Nicely written write-up

Spoiler a few thoughts :

• No point in not settling on the PH 1W of the Settler -- the 1H benefit from turn 1 is extremely valuable and always makes up for settling one turn later. It also allows you to get more of this juicy riverland in your initial BFC
• You don't really need early AH here: Wheat+farmed FP is already +7 food surplus. Going Mining-BW first is much stronger.
• Not sure what strategy is optimal on Monarch, but on higher difficulties it's better to start pumping out Quechuas ASAP -- before your first worker and @Max hammers
• Don't forget that you should usually have food in the first ring when you settle a new city and are not CRE
• Also not sure how playing LoR affects the early game

 

[salty mud]

Solid advice @Pedro78. I've never really played as Huayna seriously before, so I was following the old mantra of always going for food and worker techs first. Food in the first ring is important, but by doing so I'll lose some of the better land for the new city. There are a lot of riverside plains I can make use of though, so going 1SW of the Clams is a better choice I imagine.

 

[Pedro78]

Monarch is actually harder for Quechas, because they cannot beat city defending Warriors. It's likely more productive to go worker first on Monarch or below. I'm not sure about Emperor.

You've got both things wrong:

• On low difficulties, it's very easy to warrior-rush (a city won't have more than 2 warriors guarding it, so you can build 6 warriors/Qs and take it, even if it's on a hill. Quechuas starting with Combat I make it even safer)
• Monarch AIs start with Archery anyway

TBH on Monarch you can probably take out 3-4 AIs with Quechuas and the rest with HAs or something, but that kind of ruins the fun of playing a "standard" game..

 

[SittinDown]

You've got both things wrong:

• On low difficulties, it's very easy to warrior-rush (a city won't have more than 2 warriors guarding it, so you can build 6 warriors/Qs and take it, even if it's on a hill. Quechuas starting with Combat I make it even safer)
• Monarch AIs start with Archery anyway

• Good call on the Monarch AI's starting with Archery. It's Prince where they don't start with an archer.
• Good point on warrior rushes working well on low difficulty. My main point was that the odds of winning with a Q is actually higher against Archers than Warriors. So a Q rush is potentially easier on Monarch than Prince.

Spoiler Odds Comparison :

Q vs Warrior in city with 0% culture has 30% odds.
Q vs Archer in city with 0% culture has 62% odds.
Q vs Warrior in forest has 20% odds.
Q vs Archer in forest has 68% odds.

 

[Pedro78]

That's true. But when attacking a flatland city with 2 warriors you'll be fine with 6 Qs. And you'll be fine with 8 Qs to take a warrior-defended hilled city, but not an Archer-defended hilled city. So overall the AI having warriors instead of Archers won't slow you down

 

[salty mud]

Part 2:

Spoiler :

Venturing further north reveals a a very nice river valley to take advantage of. Some spices for extra food and horses for extra production and trade. I'm eyeing those gems as well. If I can settle maybe 1SW of the gems, I should be able to work them along with the rest of the river with some farms.

Bronze Working is researched, meaning it's full steam ahead to produce Quechuas. A mix of whipping and chopping will get them out in no time.

Corn and Clam will make for a very nice second city and... what's this? Gandhi wants to improve his farmland? Be a shame if someone took his worker...

My sneaky steal also reveals Delhi, and it couldn't be a much worse picture. Founded on a hill, protected by archers and with not-insignificant cultural protection. He's definitely hogging the food though - he also has fish in his city radius.

Bringing both workers back to my city, they're both set to chop. I get a sizeable army in no time, and I make sure to whip away any excess citizens.

The huge army you see in the previous picture suffered large causalities, but I managed to take Delhi. Gandhi is gone from the game by 2100 BC. Honestly, at least in LoR, I'm not too pleased with the Quechua rush. I still needed massively overwhelming numbers (his city was only guarded by 2 archers) and I almost went into financial ruin - you can see my science slider on 0%. This can be bad in LoR - the slider should be kept on or above 70% or you'll suffer the "financial instability" effect.

Anyhow, here is the Incan City State in 2100BC. I've tasked a worker to connect the cities with roads to reduce any rebellious sentiment Delhi may have. My science slider is back on 80% so no big shakes there. The river valley is now mine - I can settle at my leisure. I'm also now the overseer of the Hindu religion; thanks Gandhi! Depending on my other neighbours, I may be able to spread it around for a nice diplomacy boost. We shall see.

From here - build up Delhi into a worthy second city. Settle another city to the north of Cuzco, taking advantage of the clams and copper. Send out some spawn busters and explorers or barbarians will be an issue. Find my next victims/neighbours.

 

[Pedro78]

@salty mud

Spoiler :

How many Archers did Delhi have? If it had 3 Archers or more, it means that it was getting ready for a Settler escort. You could have just waited for the settler to leave with its escort and the city would be left with only 1-2 Archers. Here it's little bit more annoying as you can't see the city without declaring war. But 9-10 Quechuas were definitely enough, especially on Monarch.. The biggest mistake was to go worker first IMO

Anyway, unless LoR increases the difficulty a lot, the game should be in a good position for Monarch

 

[salty mud]

@Pedro78

Spoiler :

Delhi had two archers. They held on for dear life against the Quechuas but we got there eventually.
It would be nice to take full advantage of Huayna's industrious trait, but I've not used the trait too much before in the past. Stonehenge isn't too useful since the Terrace gives better culture. I'm hoping some fogbusters and handful of axes/swords can replace The Great Wall. The Oracle would be nice, but I don't see any Marble. The Pyramids? Again, no stone though. The Pyramids are a killer to build even with 50% bonus.