[BTS] Nobles' Club 193 - Catherine

[Olafeson]

@elementoffear

Thanks for the map, i just noticed you hosted a NC game for the first time and then such a splendid map. I did enjoy this NC game indeed.
Very balanced start and interesting map, no A.I. too much land to settle uncontested.

Well done!

 

[intutama]

Bleh I guess Deity is just not for me...I try my best but in the end there are so many things that depends on luck, it's hard to know if you're doing well cause you're playing well, or because of a cascade of bad decisions from the AI.
Thanks a lot for the hints everyone, I'll make sure to use them!

 

[Anysense]

Trying to proceed with my peaceful attempt on this map. Lib is coming up in ~10 turns with two part-bulbs. Seems safe, might even be able to research Nationalism and Lib->MT. I had to adopt Judaism to get Ragnar to friendly; I got CS and Construction in trades, but Brennus went nuts and started plotting on the next turn, such a nice fella... He does not seem to be preparing though, does not look really dangerous, and I can switch back to slavery in 1 turn.

Spoiler :

 

[Anysense]

Ragnar is unusually fast teching in this game. Made a few more really good deals with him, but then something went wrong and Ragnar built AP and researched Divine Right
Finally, when I started getting desperate Gilgamesh offered marble; built Taj in two turns with seven chops.

Spoiler :

I think Gilgamesh should be first victim, he's strong and its a bit risky to leave in peace. His main stack may look scary, but it's just macemen, catapults and other ancient rubbish.
I've a fair amount of espionage points against Gilgamesh; Lagash stands on hills, so I put two spies there to incite a revolt the turn I attack. Might attempt to steal treasury once Gilgamesh is reduced to one city, but I doubt there will be enough points to do so.

Spoiler :

 

[intutama]

@Anysense: wow that's a early time for cuirassier... Usually I'm happy when I beat 1000AD I wanted to look at your early saves but I don't have buffy mod.

Maybe I'll give another try on deity... I like retrying the same map cause you can try different stuff... The thing is lately I've been theorycrafting on elephant rush so I kind of have to try it
I did try to put less elephants but then discovered that without copper/iron you don't really have anything to complete the stack... those goddamn spearman are just savage.

 

[Anysense]

Not too shabby, yeah. Could be 5 turns earlier should Ragnar research Gunpowder for me, but he made a religious twist instead. Although the land around the capital looks rather bleak, its not as bad as it appears to be. Cities with just cows or without any food take time to grow but evetually they become quite useful, and I was thoroughly bewildered by 300 bpt without GA in 1AD. That is not very common, to say the least. Definitely not something you expect from a land that seems to scream for elepult to conquer more abundant one.
Lack of early metal is rather annoying on Deity. In my attempt on elepult I even used math bulb to improve the Construction date, something that I detest and hardly ever do.

 

[Olafeson]

Same here would have loved to take a look on the save to see how you pulled such a magnificient Cuirs timing. But also no buffy mod installed.
Next level micromanagement wizardry. I assume you double bulbed Education, researched Lib till 1 turn completion and then teched Nationhood,
then finishing Lib for MT?

 

[intutama]

Ok I decided to give a last try, maybe I'm doing things wrong despite all my thinking about optimizing hammers and stuff... So here we go!

Turns 0-15

Spoiler :

Settle 1E, tech AH, explore, meet our neighbors, not much to add.

Turns 15-30

Spoiler :

I tech the wheel first since we already have hunting and I can then avoid to lose turns. Next will be farming so I can farm one water desert, so I can quickly grow gold city to size 2 and work gold while I grow slowly.
I go SW of capitol in forest so that I can put a road there and improve the SW elephant. Since capitol is still size 2 it's the right time for this (I already have 2 improved tiles).
I build 2 warriors to clean south first, it's full of lions and a barb.
In fact 3 warriors. In fact it takes so long to grow capitol, that I profit from a +7 overflow on my 3rd warrior to switch to settler (6turns at 2 pop). I take a mental note to always check if there's a hill plain to settle in the future.
I bring 2 warriors south for cleaning purpose. Somehow mr. barb is weak... Do barbs fight againts animals? never new this...

Status on turn 30, don't think I'm going to grow capitol soon...
Have units on south to fogbust.

Turns 30-40

Spoiler :

31: settle City2. Connect it to capitol (same turn as City2 build). Build a warrior while working water desert. Build a worker in capitol. Slow tech (aggr) to 0% since I don't need it now.
32: nothing. Go to improve gold in city 2, since it will take 8 turns only to grow.
33: nothing
34:nothing
35:worker built, road the way for city 3 (corn/cow), build settler in capitol. Resume tech rate for writing then BW.
36: nothing; remembered I have one warrior fogbusting that can be moved now.
37: nothjing. Gold mine finished. 2 turns until City2 gets 2pop.
38: road gold .
39: start working gold
40: nothing
Status turn 40:

I'm focusing writing before pottery or BW because I think getting a library asap is most important in elephant rush, and especially here where we have cheap libraries. Generally cities only need a granary+barracks, but I'll have time to slow build them or put a math chop in worst case. However a city able to work 2 scientist is equivalent to another gold mine. I'm not so hot on bulbing maths however, unless I can work 2 libraries.

I'm posting once now cause I don't trust the forum's draft feature yet.

 

[Anysense]

@Olafeson
I used only 1 bulb, because I was an idiot and finished 2nd GS in a wrong city. Still managed 200 AD Lib->Nationalism. MT is just 338 bigger and I did not want to risk being caught with half-finished Nationalism and forced to Lib something worthless.
Its all really thanks to steady 300-350 bpt research rate. I had to trade a lot, even traded Paper with Ragnar. Naturally, that meant that I had to Lib Nationalism instead of MT. I think that eventually it resulted in 1-2 earlier cuirs date than if kept Paper, and I got a bunch of technoligies in trades as well.
Why don't you install BUFFY? Installation takes seconds and its loaded as a mod, it won't affect your other games in any way.

 

[intutama]

Note: I'll slow down posting as I get nearer to the rush date. In fact I think I'll stop at turn 60 tonight (european time).
Turn 41-49

Spoiler :

41:
2 barb warriors suddenly approach my frontiers... no big danger.

42:
one barb dies, another one gonna wreck a pasture. Build City3. I think I'm going to improve cow first for hammers for library. I only need size 3. Then I can grow slowly. Start working barracks everywhere as I don't have anything else productive to do.

43:
instead of wrecking my paturage, the barb attacks my forest warrior and... wins? at 4.4% chance. I take a mental note to finally install a mod that guarantee win/loss over 95% combat chance (in fact unit retreats when losing over 95% chance). I actually have the mod, only need to learn how to install it. Good thing I prepared for the worst and started a 2 turns warrior when the barbs appeared.

44:
writing finished. Open border with giggles. I don't have a free worker to road now... I switch to library in capitol so that I can grow to size 3 (2 turns), then... we'll see. Start working a library in city 3. I need 45 hammers. I still have 6 turns until size 2, then probably 6 turns to size 3. In 3 turns I'll do 4 hammers/turn... with some micro it should all work out. In fact I also start working a library in city 2. At 200% speed + working gold there's no reason not too, and I really don't need to do anything else now.

45:
nothing

46:
pasture in city 3 built, 11 turns to library. Capitol grows to 3, in the end I don't switch to worker cause I should have done this before. I'll finish library first (3 turns, +3,5 beakers).

47: not much

48:
my jungle fogbusting warrior survives a 2x attack. Advice for all players: change the sound of combats to something way softer to the ears. This improved my gameplay experience by about 10000%.
My worker in City2 (gold) is done farming waterdesert. Notice I don't have potery. Oh boy. 4 turns at 100%... I'll improve elephants in the meanwhile. In fact I'll put one turn on elephant, then road to Giggles as I don't waste turns this way. A little bit more efficient than improving elephants right now.

49:
library finished in capitol. Ponder about settler or worker. Go worker first (I'll need to cottage floodplain, then improve new city... need workers.).

Status turn 50:

Spoiler :

No one has alphabet. Didn't get attacked by crazy barbarians stacks. Kind of worrying about this actually.
Everything is going real great actually (at least what I feel). In fact I probably could rock a peaceful game now... It's funny how focusing on efficiency for rushing is actually really helpful for peaceful too But I'm still going to elephant rush. I have a score to settle and also I want to learn the stack composition.

Capitol: as planned, worker->settler for city 4.
City2: will get library, then start working on granary+barracks.
City3: grow in 4/library in 7. Will try to micro for a nice timing.
City4: not sure when to settle... I actually found a nice spot where I can use a flooded plain. Normally with international trade route and this distance to palace it shouldn't but a burden on the economy on settling. Still I think I'll wait until the floodplain is farmed. Could even be a perfect timing.

 

[Olafeson]

@intutama

when barbs spawn (deity turn 10), they despawn the barb animals, i think. Also you still have some time based on a variable before they enter your cultural borders.
For all i know the variable takes into account the total amount of cities and their size of all Civs in the game.

No chariots, axes or archers for barb defense on deity? That is quite risky, especially considering the countless tiles on the west where barbs could spawn.
I would only work 1 city with 2 scientists. You need to farm a floodplain for St. Petersburg or the city will never grow.

If you work scientists in other cities they will not grow and you need pop to hardbuild or whip elephants/catas. I think Moscau and St. Peter could hardbuild elephants/catas with hammers if you could manage to get extra happyness resources in a trade. Around size 6 - 8 with a lot of hills and +3 hammer ivory and cows should net you in around 15 hammers/turn maybe even 20. Low food does not allow too much whipping since regrowth will be slow.

On such a low commerce/ low food /many hammers map i think this strategy would be viable for elepults. Trading HR for Alpha to build research. So you can safe the hammers needed for extra libraries and rather build research or some Horse Archers to start building a stack.

Also road into Gilgamesh, he might have some happyness resources for trade. Scouting your enemy with a chariot or a scout before attacking is also recommended, or you have to guess where his good cities are.

If you bulb math you can also collect gold for a few turns while you wait 17 turns for your GS to tech to Construction in one go.

 

[Olafeson]

@Anysense

i was playing with Bug/Bull and that did the job for me. I was so satisfied with Bug/Bull mod that i never even tried out much other mods. But if you can recommend BUFFY
i will check it out. What are the main differences of BUFFY compared to Bug&Bull. Do you have a link?

 

[Anysense]

@Olafeson
I suppose there differences that I'm not aware of, never really bothered with it, but mainly its just a habit which I, probably, picked up from Seraiel. He must have preferred BUFFY because it is a prerequisite for HOF.
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php#buffy_download

@intutama
Its a bit risky without either a chariot or spawnbust. You are likely to get away with it, because you are in the middle of pangaea-like continent packed with Deity AI's, still its a risk. I preferred extended spawnbust here, may not be a very good idea, because it costs gold, but I skipped the wheel. No, didn't. I teched it much later than you did and delayed horses too.
I swapped city2 and city3. Early gold is great, but you might have lost corn+cows spot to Gilgamesh, and its vitally important to have productive cities when you go for any kind of rush.

 

[intutama]

@Olafeson:
Thanks a lot for your hints. You are right that using only warriors for defense is quite dangerous. I guess I'm just lucky here. I should have gone for archery when possible, probably just after writing... Will probably tech it just after potery.
I do not have plans to work scientists everywhere, except in City3. I thought that with cheap libraries and not much to build otherwise I could use the few beakers anyway (and work scientists as clutch if necessary). I might work scientists in capitol at size 4, considering the food there... Concerning this, I did not really consider growing the cities as you mentioned. You are right, capitol at size 6 without farms could have 18 hammers (6 from cows, 6 from elephants, 4 from plain forest, 2 from center). I could even chop 2 forests to boost granary+barracks+stable, farm the now available river grassland to quicken pop grow... If I can grow to size 8 I could get another 3 hammers. But this seems difficult (just a feeling). Size 6 is easy. Good idea
City2 can get 14 hammers at size 6. I wonder if it's better than whipping at +6 food production (including natural city food)... It takes 25food (= 24+26 /2) I think to grow 2->4 with granary...thats's roughly 60 hammers in 4 turns I thinks, so 15 hammers a turn. Same same.
City3 can get 17 hammers at size 6.
City4... Not sure what to do with city 4. I don't see any good spot with good food or production. I could use it to whip 1-citizen stuff, such as axeman or archer... Whip every 3 turns...

note: stopped on turn 50 tonight. So much thinking when you're actually posting seriously on the forum

note note: tech rate should be at 37 bpt once I work two scientists... That would give me enough beakers around turn 85-90 (rough tech cost of expensive techs for elepult is 1350 without prerequiste reduction). So I'm on the right track.

 

[Anysense]

City3 is retty straightforward. It has +6 at size 2 and can work a forest or a mine at size 3; good for 4->2 whips. Its shame there is no riverside there.
City4 has +5 with cows, FP farm and horses at size 3; at size 4 its +6 with a grassland farm. Its a good city for 5->3 whips.

 

[intutama]

Continuation
51-70

Spoiler :

51
Start exploring Gilgaland with my now free explorer.
52
Meet Brennus; Tech Pottery; Start Archery;
53
Get a 3rd Worker and start building a last settler. Finally roaded to Gigl.
54/55
Notice I still don't have BW yet. Good thing I don't need chops right now. Improve some elephants.
56
Library done in City 3, start working 2GS and build a granary.
I move a worker to chop a riverside forest to boost capitol granary and farm. Forest was on the way to horses, so that's nice.
57
Library done in City2. Right now my BPT at 100% is 45; I finally get BW.
58
I notice that my tech rate is faster that what I expected.After saving and skipping some turn I suddenly remember that GS science does not appear in the BPT indicator... So i'm in fact at 55BPT.
I need 1500 beakers, that's 27 turns at 100%, for this I need to save for 10 turns. Or I bulb Maths... I'll probably save money after HBR+Masonry and see then (GS in 15 turns, which should be the time when I can start maths).
59
settler completed
60
settle City4 (build granary)
61-64
not much; turn 64 I grow capitol to size 4 and start building a worker. Anyway I don't have a 5th improved tile to work yet.
65
Giglamesh decides to settle right into my face...

65-70
Trying to make the best out of worker turns. I start moving them to hills and prechop/mine now as I don't have much better to do.

Status on turn 70

Spoiler :

I can have HBR next turn in 3 turns at 0% science, and a GS in 3 turns. If I bulb Maths, I need another 11 turns for construction, and maybe another 2-3 turns of saving, so Construction turn 86. That's in 16 turns. Can I get barracks+granary in my cities by then? Definitively (+ Stable in capitol).
The question I guess is... Should I slow-build or whip units? It doesn't look like a good idea to bother so much with teching fast then losing time slow building units... As I said before I think 4->2 whip at +6 food is 15 hammers/turn (is it the correct way to think?). Hmmm... Not sure what to do. Will probably try slow-build... Unless whipping is actually quite more than 15H/T. Requires more management too I guess, to make optimal whips. In this case I need to move my ass and mine things... In fact maybe I can 7-turns mine instead of chop then mine, so that I can still time the chops .

Brennus probably gonna DOW Hatshetput.
No one has Alphabet.
No one willing to trade copper (or even able to trade anything).
I'll scout more to find Giglamesh's stack. His 3 cities on the border would make nice first picks, too bad they are mostly on hills... Maybe I could attack Zimbit first with a 5-stack, and bring the main force to Eridu at the same time. Then depending on how things work I could bring the smaller force to take Ur, then join the main force in Eridu.
I am not sure I can attack all 3 cities without either missing a city because of bad RNG, or taking a city and getting wiped the turn after.

I am joining my save, in case one has interest
Boy it takes ages to write these reports... And I'm thinking so much about many things such as do I have enough worker turns available to improve every city until turn 90... Crazy
Can't even begin to think how much planning Mr. you-know-who is doing for his BC space victory

 

[Olafeson]

@intutama

nice write up! Solid elepult push incoming, the pros could probably do it faster but i think you are gucci here.
Not sure if you should bother with ur and zimbir, they are on a hill and if you are unlucky you lose some catapults to garrison 2 bows. Protective leaders are really a pain in the butt.

I would just push through Eridu and take Uruk, with one big push ignoring the rather bad ur and zimbir, not much to gain there besides copper (not really smth you need at the moment). Uruk on the other hand would strengthen your position in this game a lot and cripple gilgamesh, double food, gold and wine and iron, some nice riverside grasstiles.

Also possible to get Kish afterwards.

If you spend too much time taking bad cities he might get longbows. Anyway good luck with your attack. May the RNG gods be on your side.

Also the scientist specialist research shows in the BPT.

 

[Anysense]

Why building archers? I supose you haven't decided what to do yet, may be failgold? Better than useless units which will only increase maintenance. I think another settler might be a better investment. Or rather a chariot then settler at size 5. There is an excellent corn+clam spot southwest. It will push the Construction date a bit farther, still it will be good.
Zimbir should be ignored, a very poor hill city that wil only be a distraction; not sure about Ur.
In your calculation on whipping you forgot to add regular hammers for city3 its 4.5 per turn, which makes total production ~19. Math for city4 is a bit more complicated: say its 5.5/turn and growing 3->5 takes 13+14=27 on average, then its 60*5,5/27=12.2/turn, add 3+3+1 regular hammers and finally we have 12+7=19.
Whipping in the capital is no good, but slowbuilding with 20 per turn at size 6 isn't really slow.
City2 is rather weak in terms of production so you can build ~3WE every 3 turns or 1WE/turn. That is not exactly true because it takes ~4 turns to regrow, but you get extra hammers, that is you'll sometimes have 30+ hammers overflow. That will require some micro. And I haven't even mentioned chops that will be crucial to get a better attack date.

 

[Olafeson]

Lots of math forests chops should enable less whipping and still a good amount of elephants/catas very fast.
Good that you saved nearly all forests, smth that i didn t.

I tend to chop lots of settlers and workers because i am afraid to lose all spots to deity A.I. and their fast expanding.
Sometimes too much chopping without math in my games i think.

BUT NOW!

I want to see your next post, will INTUTAMA crush Gilgi or will he lay in the dirt, sobbing and defeated by
protective archers /longbows of the sneaky Gilgamesh.

 

[Anysense]

I doubt archers will be much of a trouble. Checked my turn 102 save, so far killed: 12 vultures, 8 swords, 6 spears, 4 archers and 1 catapult; lost 6 catapults and 1 WE. That may give you the idea of what you are going to encounter.