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Nobles' Club 197 - Gilgamesh of Sumeria

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Oct 3, 2018.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
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    I played on, if you have any thoughts and feedback on the previous turnset, it's still very much appreciated.
    Spoiler T145 - T190 :


    I played this rather late at the evening and did some mistakes that I know of, and others that I am probably unaware of! :)

    The GA that I pulled after killing wang was probably wasted, it was not enough to reach any new critical tech. I should probably have waited until my cities had recovered abit. I should have accepted a turn of revolt to get crucial civics instead.

    Last turnset, Zara had declared on me and Napoleon apparantly decied to join in on the fun.
    I took opportunity of this and sniped his stack once it was placed conveniently in neutral ground.

    T152 Napoleon Backstab.jpg

    Up north I had 10-15 trebs, but too few units (probably case system was a horrible mistake, I could have whipped more units up there.

    Once his stack was taken care of, and the killers moved north with some built reinforcements Napoleon folded after i took Orleans, the city of "Happy Nappy" and Paris.
    He was kind enough to place the reminder of his units outside of the old barbarian/wang city I had way up north. A city where I placed 4 longbowmen and whipped walls/castle. During the entire was they stood there, bombarding with a single catapult. :)

    At T164 Napoleon capitulated.
    I thought about gifting back paris, but it had hanging gardens so I kept it.

    The same turn he capitulated I started the second golden age. This time prioritizing research and not further GPerson generation.
    I managed to trade nationalism with zara and reach almost all the way to rifling.
    All my troops marched toward Pacal now, supplomented by a few knights. (Bad play, I should really have resupplied them much more.)

    After the GA, I saw it as my endgame plan to limp toward steel, while drafting a huge ammount of riflemen. Since we are creative I thought it would be good to get theatres and colosseums in place so I built them everywhere.
    This was just bad play on my part (it was getting late). Allthough theatres was a nice idea, I should not have built them first. The game wasn't stacked in such a way that there was time to slowly prepare like that.
    All cities started to produce trebs after theatres. Not sure if this was the best play, but the reasoning was that I would draft rifles and I needed something to complement that.

    At T172 (1120AD) I declared on Pacal.
    Next turn, Zara and Isabella was bribed on me.

    I think it is safe to say I was overstreched here. My army was outdated and to meager really. It was only because of Napoleons aid I managed to pull this of.
    Some knights were still built and moved up, and once rifling was in some few riflemen was sent to this front.

    The majority of all drafts and all trebs went to the south, in preparation for a push on that front.
    I had to bombard alot during the Pacal war and he reached Military Science and Steel too, and when I was standing outside mutal I had to continue to bombard even as Pacal attacked my stack with a few cannons. I lost half of my trebs when attacking, which was a pity. They where nice CR3 ones that I planned on upgrading.

    I should REALLY have resupplied that northern army earlier. And failed to do so at numerous occations.
    I lost quite a few units, and I think I can thank Napoleon which took a Pacal city of his own for getting war succes enough to get Pacal to capitulate. If he hadn't folded after Mutal I have had to make peace anyway. There was no way I could have gone further.

    Empire overview:
    T190 Empire overview.jpg



    Next step?

    Well... I'm still at war with Zara, and I have about 20 trebs and 10 riflemen at justinians borders. Probably way too many trebs, shouldn't have set ALL cities to build trebs. I think I overestimate how many rifles you get with drafting.
    But Zara has military science so it's probably a very bad idea to struggle toward him.

    It's probably best to go for Justinian directly, who is a much softer target.
    Not too concerned with tech, and I'll probably focus 100% on military once I have steel.
    If I can manage to get MT easy, the addition of cavalery might yield a quicker win.


     

    Attached Files:

  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
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    Spoiler T190-T206, 1460AD Conquest :


    The game was way more won than I imagined.
    1460AD (T206) Conquest.

    I did some trading with Pacal to deprive him of health resources since his population was "53% of master, free at 50%", I don't understand the exact mechanics though, but I tried to play it safe.

    Did sue for peace with Zara (Should have taken ceasefire), declared on Justantin T192 and he caved in after 2 cities at T195.
    Declared on Isabella at T196 and tried to do it on Zara at T197 as well but it was still a few turns left on the peace treaty.

    Isabella wanted to capitulate after her first city had fallen, but I thought I would wait a turn to see if I could capitulate them both to get a conquest instead of domination.
    Next turn she withdrew her offer though.. :(

    At T206 after he lost two cities Zara decided he had enough and once he capitulated Isabella followed suit.

    Save attached (Buffy 005)
    (I tried previously to save the game in worldbuilder and load it with no mod installed, but the culture got completly changed by that, perhaps cultural borders aren't saved in worldbuilder saves?)




    Spoiler Lessons learned :


    Some mistakes I see:

    * Going hunting first was obviously wrong. I still stand by AH->Min->BW though.
    * Not going for a quick construction attack on Napoleon, but instead falling in love with the engineering bulb idea.
    * Choosing Wang as the first target, and staying in Police state during the war caused me to fall behind in tech before reaching crucial military tech.
    * Neglectance to resupply the front toward Pacal. (This was very bad, if I hadn't succeded in capping him it would probably have costed me 20-40 turns or more,)
    * I built way to much infrastructure and buildings, I wastly overestimated how hard the final push would be. I prepared myself for a long and drawn out war. If I would have instead built more units at crunch time, I would have had the victory in hand way earlier.

    Overall, I feel I had a disharmony between teching and unit building. Teching too much at the wrong times, not quite reaching what I really needed. And building too much units and times and too little at other times.

     

    Attached Files:

  3. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Spoiler :
    Mmm, not really, sorry. You can try watching some of Sullla's AI survivor matches on YT or peruse his threads about them on his own site, he talks about what they are doing while the matches are ongoing. Other than that I just learned some of it through playing and the occasional observation of an all AI match of my own.

    Like the thing about Nappy's starting land is it is lacking strong hammers (usually not a problem) but even worse he lacks a powerful food tile in his first two spots (he took the Ivory/FP in my game) so his growth is slow. Even on Deity, with Cow and Horse in the cap his growth to 3 or more tiles is still slower due to lower food and it puts him behind a bit. The way the AI runs cities and develops its land (it doesn't whip much beyond emergencies or wonders, chops conservatively, cottages everything, etc), size is key for them so they work as many tiles as possible. Nappy like to push units, so lots of just sitting there building them in hammer weaker spots and growing more slowly at the same time slows him a lot compared to where he could be at. FP and lacking some health could have also contributed. His land is not bad at all --but he lacks the way a human plays to use it well.

    The settler thing exemplifies it. I ran a WB of the start again immediately after posting here, and he was almost the last AI to put down a second city, beating religion spammer and terrible starting tech-having Izzy by only a couple turns... settler was initially building at 31 turns, even after the Immortal handicap, it took him something like 13 turns to finish it. Wang got his settler out and city DOWN in 8 or 9 turns...he even beat the IMP Justin to first settler out and second city.

    By contrast, at the only hardsave i made on turn 75, WB reveals now that Nappy was at 3 cities, building one settler and preparing to settle city 4. Pacal was at 6 cities, and building 3 more settlers!


    Spoiler :

    I have a bad habit of over worrying about the AI and what it does; one of the regulars pointed it out to me ever since I started posting in the NC threads.. I came from a much simpler civ game to this one where keeping tabs on everything the AI is doing can let you do some insane things to them.

    I do lack long term foresight. It's why this game degraded into a post-assembly line thing, i ran into the ground overwhipping (but I did kick Nappy's ass :D). It's just too complex for me to keep it all in my head at once, at least without a lot more practice to familiarize myself with all the stuff in the game intimately.

    Like I said, I already decided upon seeing the stone + the power of our start that I wanted Mids. When Wang got GW that early it was a red flag he had A.) Masonry and B.) stone. AIs can build Mids quite early even on Immortal with that exact circumstance (pre-2000BC) and i didn't want to lose CRE Library + Rep scientists gambit to him, that would have led to a rather boring elephant attack --which I did anyway, but i did it off the back of that gambit and with much more hammer potential because of it since I didn't avoid settling/focus too hard on cottaging to save the economy.

    I also look at land from mostly a productive viewpoint: for instance I can tell you that cities whipped down to size 4 can still effectively pump Cuirs with only one food resource and couple mined hills, or with just green farms and a couple hills at size 6...but my grasp of commerce and tech rates and such are often just me winging it. So I was kind of relying on Mids for Rep scientists to get me forward to Currency, since looking at the land I was planning 7 cites at least... they are quite productive (much more than Nappy's; in fact a quick glance at the map in WB shows we and Wang Kon have the best starts for productive output)

    So all that mess was my thought process. But I think you are right though, it would have been better to just not worry so much about it if I played straight up with a couple less cities :p

    Interesting. I can't lie that didn't even consider maintenance though, I was more concerned with city placement regarding food (ignoring the weaker Western city, all the cities in the area can run their own food resource) and eventually access to hills. Perhaps such considerations could help me if I ever plan to try to buckle down and move up to big-boy Deity, thanks for the article link.

    Oh wait, Lagash, the copper city. Yeah that city is crap, pretty much there for the barb insurance; grabs copper, fogbusts and keeps Wang away too, but to make such a spot salvageable for short-term push in terms of hammers, I had to abuse CRE and take the rice too since my workers were gonna be busy chopping on the other side of the empire and it would have to whip to do anything on its own.

    It's not always a complete bad idea to settle junkers if they do something useful like take stone/copper/horse or work a gold mine, and just eat the maintenance. This was a bit far though, and I don't even need the graph and stuff to tell you I felt it lol.

    In hindsight I would probably settle that 1N of copper if at all; the peak is in the exact spot I wanted to put it and Mids + CRE culture might grab it anyway. I did eventually use the forests to chop catapults quickly for the Nappy DoW, but overall, terrible settle on my part. Especially cause I also pushed toward Nappy in other direction :crazyeye:


    -Great Engineer from Mids/Forge

    -have iron working, Construction, Metal Casting, and Machinery already; MC can be gotten through Oracle or a GM (like say, from GLH) if you already have Currency.

    -GE will bulb into Engineering

    That's what I thought we were talking about when bulbing Engineering since I had Mids on the brain. I don't know off the top of my head how to do it with GS (you need Aesthetics, i think? Definitely need alpha already), though I know you can, and that's the thing that concerns not having fishing. GE bulb Fishing doesn't matter and you can skip Alpha, but is also incomplete bulb I think (GS ~1500 vs GE ~1000 beakers)

    I think it's more commonly used to bulb the cheaper Machinery, as it's a gambit with Qin Shi Huang (Oracle MC, Forge for Engineer in another city should outpace Oracle Prophet, bulb Machinery for Cho-Ko-Nus).
     
  4. Undefeatable

    Undefeatable Chieftain

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    Sorry guys but I've been really busy the past 2 weeks. I'll return to this map eventually but not right now.
     
    krikav likes this.
  5. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    Same problem, I do have about 10 hours of spare time a week, but I'd rather spent it doing something less strenuous than playing Civ.
     
  6. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    OK, I decided to play the Noble Club game.

    Settings:
    Normal speed, Noble, no huts, no events.

    I played 100 turns and here is a summary of the game so far:
    Spoiler Summary :

    1t: Move settler 1E on grass hill so wet corn is available. Warrior 1N. Tech Mining > BW
    12t: Meet Korea
    16t: Meet France
    20t: BW in, going to Pottery
    27t: Warrior built in cap, start settler for chopping
    28t: Pottery in, going to Writing
    35t: Settler out, start worker
    37t: Settled 2nd city with rice, cow, 3 sugar
    39t: Writing in, going to AH
    40t: Worker out in cap, start on Library <after I thought I should have gone Granary here>
    42t: Library built in cap, 3t to grow, start Granary
    47t: Meet Byzantine, AH in, going to Alphabet
    54t: Settler out in cap, start on worker
    56t: 3rd city settled on stone
    58t: Granary built in cap, start on settler
    59t: Granary built in 2nd city, start on Library
    60t: 2pop whip Lib in 2nd city. Start on warrior, then warrior, then settler
    65t: Settler out in cap, start on worker
    66t: Meet Maya
    67t: 4th city settled, pigs and copper
    69t: Settler out in 2nd city
    70t: Worker out in cap, start on barracks to allow growth
    71t: Granary out in 3rd city, start on Lib
    71t: 5th city settled, cow, wheat
    73t: Alphabet in, start on Math
    75t: Meet Spain
    76t: Trade Writing to Maya for Hunting and Myst
    81t: Settler out in 2nd city
    84t: 6th city settled, no specials
    85t: Math in, start on Currency
    85t: Trade Writing to France for Fishing and Archery
    85t: Trade AH to Korea for Masonry
    91t: Trade Math to France for IW
    93t: Trade Writing to Byzantine for Poly
    99t: Trade Writing and 20G to Spain for Monotheism
    99t: 7th city settled, no specials but lots of FP
    100t: Settler 1t away from settling 8th city in the south. Also 1t away from Mids in cap where I'll switch to Rep right away.


    I think at this point I need to start thinking about some aggression. Maybe France as I see 2 irons there plus marble and stone. Plus he never seems happy and he's encroaching my space when he has open space to settle in peace.

    So what do you pros think? Go easy on me! LOL.
    Spoiler T100 :
    Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 3:12 PM
  7. Major Tom

    Major Tom Immortal Supporter

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    Looking good, OldDude. Unprotected French workers near Lyon. Grab them. Worker stealing is so good. AI soon takes peace anyway (if you want).
     
  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @OldDude ...oops spoiler
    Spoiler :
    Not bad stuff here at all. Some points for improvement, but it appears like you are really starting to pick up some concepts. Decent settling positions for the most part, although Nibru might be better placed a bit south as a helper city for Uruk. Overall though, you have a pretty good foundation for doing whatever you want.

    Things to point out:

    1) You really need to focus on getting out that first GS sooner from somewhere, likely Uruk. But at this point Kish is your best option and that city should be running 2 scientists.

    2) Mids will solve any happiness issues next turn when you adopt Representation, so Calendar IMO is not a priority. I think you should gear up for war with Eliepults.

    3) So go HBR and Construction and put Nappy out of his misery. (Yes, he's not a happy chap and one of the 4 or 5 "psychos" in the game) Wang is another option, but Napster has ivory so I would want to relieve him of that before he gets hbr/construction as well...and relieve him of the rest of his possesions.

    4) Try to manage that happiness. You really should not just sit on unhappy citizens unless you plan to whip them. (again, this will be resolved next turn, but looking backwards some cities could have been managed better or whipped)

    5) Trade corn to Nappy for 1 gpt. Always check for possible gold trades.

    6) With Currency in now, check every turn for tech trades for gold or whatever. Not saying trade every turn but evaluate the trade against techs and gold. For instance, Wang will give you 30g for Monotheism. Why won't he give you at least Priesthood as well? Because he is teching Monotheism right now and about to finish it. Might as well get some gold.

    7) Pacal is best techer on the map. Focus EPs on him. Do this immediately when you meet someone like him. By now you would see what he is teching, which further helps with trade evaluations. (Hypothetically, if Pacal was not on this map, I'd probably go with Justinian or Wang for EP focus..likely Justinian, who is simply the strongest AI in the game)

    8) Warriors in SE could have adjusted a bit more south for spawnbusting. (looks like you have a couple of settling options down that way, although I think I spied a settler of yours heading that way. (a road to that city would have been good)

    9) Why do you have Archery?

    With mono trade to Wang for 30g, and another scientist in Kish you can finish HBR directly in 3 turns, then go construction. Pick a couple of cities for Elie production and whip stables there...the rest of the cities can build cats (with or without barracks). Throw in a couple of vultures or so for stack support. (although I think you have 2 vulture sitting in Kish) 4 or 5 Elies, 2 vultures, and 5 or 6 cats about what you need to start war with Napster, followed by reinforcements. Then start stack for Wang.

    Start keeping an eye on the relationships between AIs. Who does or does not like whom. Very much want to know this before declaring on someone or possibly bribing someone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 12:37 PM
  9. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    @lymond, thanks once again for your advice.

    Spoiler Summary :

    Yeah I did kind of forget to get scientists going sooner but I've played some since then and got a GS out and had him build an academy in the cap. This brings a question to mind though...as you get more GS born, do you build more academies or do you start bulbing? Situational?

    When you say EPs, I'm assuming that means Espionage Points? I've never used spies before so I'm not sure how that works.

    I have archery from a trade.

    So when I was about 2 turns into preparing for war with Nappy, the dude attacked me. He went for my 7th city and captured it. Fortunately I had 6 vultures on his border where he had iron. So I easily took that city. I then cranked up the Ellie/Cat production and took him out. So now I'm recovering from all of the whipping and getting ready for Wang.

    I'm not sure what kind of victory I want here, maybe space since I've never done that before and I have a pretty good tech lead.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 3:13 PM
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @OldDude
    Spoiler Quick thought :

    Your worker use is poor here and too few workers for 300bc and 7 cities. Farming plains is a very bad habit. I rarely do it unless I need chain irrigation. Kish needed 2xcottages for Uruk. That is what the workers should have been doing.

    Barracks if you plan phant/catapult war.

    I really think you should be playing this on a higher level than Noble. Based on this save you could compete against Prince/Monarch level.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 4:19 PM
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @OldDude

    Spoiler :
    Your priority for the first GS is almost always an academy in your Capital, unless another city is more suited for a Bureaucracy cottage capital. Later, you will use more GS for bulb strategies. Something we have not really broached yet, but usually revolves around speeding your way to the Lib path. Or possibly going for an earlier military advantage.

    Yep, Eps are espionage points. There is a button in the top right of the screen :espionage: that is the espionage advisor. You can change the weight to 1 using the + button next to the leader and all points will be directed toward that leader. Or you can split them up in different ratios between target leaders, but for now I recommend just focusing on one Leader that is usually a great techer like Pacal. You don't really have to think much about it afterwards, but after a time you will have enough EPs to see what he is teching which will appear on the Scoreboard.

    Archery - Okay...here is a concept that is new for you. AIs have trade caps - that is, the number of techs trade before they become unwilling to trade with you. Also, known as "We Fear You Are Becoming To Advanced" (WFYABTA). So the key here is being careful what you trade for during the game. Avoid trading for small insignificant techs like Archery or those little religious techs. These are things that when need you will be able to tech real fast, likely one turn at some point in the game. But when you trade for those techs they go against the trade cap. You wan't to freely trade for the important techs and not be blocked out because you hit your trade caps. (Another concept that really plays a more important role and becomes more evident as you move up difficulty)

    Also, a note on Archery itself. With the exception of the lovely Horse Archer unit or in the rare case I need them for barb defense on Immortal or Deity level, where they are much more a concern if you can't get horse or copper early, I rarely tech Archery. In fact, I've gone whole games without owning the tech, or maybe at some point I just got it by virtue of a peace deal with an AI. In fact, if I don't start with Hunting, I often go without that tech as well for a long time. Note that Archery is a "Dead End Tech". It leads to nothing, so having to tech it is an unwanted diversion unless you just have to have it for some reason, like Horse Archers.

    Ha..that is Nappy for you. Granted AIs are more docile on Noble, but the psychos can still attack at any level. Oh..and note the Fist on the scoreboard next to the Leader. The Red Fist is a BUG feature that denotes when a leader is plotting war. Always keep an eye out for that, cause it could mean they are plotting on you. (War plotting is also identified in the diplo screen with a Leader. If you look at the section where you can ask him to declare war on someone you will see the tooltip "We Have Enough On Our Hands Right Now" [WHEOOHRN] - that means the leader is plotting on someone)

    Good job though taking him out. Eliepults should allow you to grab a lot of land from the AI. Space Victory does not preclude war, in fact the more land the better for Space. Optimal Space victories usually have players trying to get a close to the Domination land threshold as possible. More land means more beakers and more production.

    Space might be an interesting thing for you now, although it will take you far into a game well past the advice you have been given so far. Regardless, I think the best thing is to continue practicing the early game mechanics before you move up levels. But as Gumbo said, you can feel free to move up a level or two. Prince is not really a big jump from Noble. Monarch is where the AIs start with Archery.





    @OldDude

    Spoiler SGOTM :

    On another note, I recommend joining up on the next Succession Game of the Month. It should be starting up in a few weeks. Succession games are teams that play a specially created map by the SGOTM staff with specials rules and stuff. Teams compete to meet the victory requirements of the SGOTM and whatever the actually designated game victory is. Playing with others in this slow and deliberate type game, with much planning, is a great way to learn. I believe my team is full, but with more sign-ups some new teams will form and you will likely get some very experienced players to learn from on your team. Oh..and they are quite fun.

    All experience levels are welcome!

    You can find the sign-up thread (and forum) here:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/sgotm-26-sign-up-thread.632164/
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 1:44 PM
  12. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Oh, sorry. This is my first time on an NC game so I wasn't aware of the protocol. Edited the above posts and will follow the protocol moving forward.

    Thanks @Gumbolt for your feedback.
    Spoiler Questions :

    OK, yes I can see that I could use some more workers. Question on the farmer plains being a very bad habit. What if the city just needs food and that's all you have? What do you normally build on plains? Workshops?

    Regarding the game level, I've been playing a long time at Warlord and then tried to move to Noble and couldn't figure out how to win at that level. I know it's child's play for all of you but it wasn't for me. So I started a shadow game and got tons of great advice and learned a lot. So I wanted to play a few more games at that level to try to fine tune and ingrain as many concepts as possible before moving up another level. I'll probably play the last couple of NC games after this at Noble and then go up a level.
     
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @OldDude

    Spoiler Answer :

    Why are you so keen to improve th0se plains? 2f1h tiles are very poor. I would rather whip tiles like these away as they are in effect unimproved tiles. I count 4 grassland tiles around Kish that already provide 2 food. (Albeit one covered by forest.) Why passover grassland river tiles for 2f1h? Cottaged grassland river tiles is your priority for your capital. Commerce is key if you want a decent economy. These cottages will provide 4-6 base commerce in 80-100 turns time. Your farmed plains will provide 2f1H in 100 turns time. I would forget about workshops for now. Focus on the basics.

    I would be chopping forest, building river grassland cottages for your capital or it's helper cities. Your capital should have 6-7 cottages by now. If you wanted mids you should of planned more workers to chop the forest and build cottages.

    So early game you want to work key food resources like corn, wheat, pigs focusing on 5-6F food resources. Then look at chopping forest. (These could of been used for 2-3 workers.) That or chops to help with granaries/wonders.. Then you want to gradually build up cottages. You really want at least 1-2 worker dedicated to your capital. This is where cottages should initially go. With Bureau civic you get a 50% bonus on commerce in your capital.

    I really don't like Nibru settled place. No food resources at all. At best it should of been 1S to help with the capital's cottages. This is why early cities are used as helper cities. Only 1 citiy near your capital so far can help run a cottage.

    Jumping to Prince is not a huge leap. Your already expanding way faster than Prince Ai will ever do. You just need to watch out for warmongers. Are you using buffy or Bull to spot when AI going into fist mode?

     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018 at 12:26 PM

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