Nobles' Club 198 - Joao of Portugal

[krikav]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Joao of Portugal, whom we last played in NC 119 The Portuguese start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Joao is Expansive and Imperialistic, making him an excellent REXer. IMP means 50% bonus on for building settlers, and EXP means 25% bonus on workers, as well as 50% bonus on granaries and harbors.
  
• His UB: The Feitoria, a Customs House that gives +1 for water tiles.
  
  
• His UU: The Carrack, a superior Caravel. It can carry two of any type of unit, unlike the Caravel's single unit of a restricted set of types, and can enter ocean squares -- making it more like a Galleon, available with Optics instead of Astronomy. Thus he can cross oceans with settlers and military units with cheaper ships (60 vs 80 at Normal speed) and a bit earlier than the AIs (Astronomy being an expensive tech, and requiring Calendar as well as Optics). Thus on some maps an Optics beeline might be appropriate.
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details - just gives away what map script was used. :

The Terra map script is sort of like a Pangea, where all civs share a continent, but out there is also a continent ripe for new settlement after astronomy (Or in Joaos case, after optics!) All settings default.

Spoiler edits - This you should probably not read untill you have played the first 50 turns or so. :

I gave our closest neighbour a hill under the capital, another rice and early access to copper with the idea of steering the game from rush and toward REX, utilizing Joaos traits.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 198 Joao Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

*EDIT* A new version of the game is added with a minor edit. */EDIT*

 

[Smilingrogue]

Thanks for the map, Krikav.
Unless I am mistaken, there is a land mass near the South East fish, so don't have to worry about burning that food by settling in place.
There is also clearly landmass South of the SW fish, incentivising Great Light House for two potential off shore trade routes we see right in the starting screen shot.
I am thinking the best build order is Work Boat -> Work Boat -> Warrior to size 4 -> Settler 2 pop whipped into Worker.
Technology research order I am thinking should go Bronze Working -> Sailing -> Masonry.

Edited to add:
Why does the screenshot in the OP show the cost of Carrack as 90?

 

[krikav]

Yes, I think there has to be a landmass that can in theory work that fish, (allthough in some cases the only spot within reach is a peak). So there has to be some land there.
I think that in theory SiP can orphan some seafood out there west of the westcoast fish, but the only warrior move will reveal if that is the case.

I think seafood starts without access to forested PH or without a 2/3 hammer city is interesting, so many options to consider.
Perhaps worker first and BW could be the way to go?
WB first makes the fish improved on turn 11 if we SiP, since it seems we can only work a forested grassland hill for a total of 3 hammers.
Worker first improves the fish at turn 20. (Worker takes 15 turns, and the we chop 16,17,18, get the boat out 19 and improve fish T20.

It's annoying that we can't seem to get 4 hammers for the exp bonus while building worker though.
Could perhaps working 2F2C and after borderpop work the cows with the idea of reaching pop2 and bw to whip out a worker be an idea?

 

[krikav]

In my normal speed game:
Carrack cost 60.
Feitoria cost 180.

Perhaps the screenshot is from some other speed? Epic/Marathon? It's from Dalambs photobucket account.

 

[AcaMetis]

I assume those screenshots were taken on Epic speed (Marathon Carracks cost 120, for reference).

 

[Pedro78]

I kinda see how the map was intended to be played:

Spoiler :

The idea was probably to build GLH, settle the islands etc. (which can be fun on an islands type of map)

But when your land is so bad and your neighbor's land is so good... And when your neighbor is Hatshie with no metals... HA rush is just so much better, no matter the difficulty. I played ~90 turns and Hatshepsut is almost dead. Then recover, tec to Cuirs -> gg.
(not much time nor energy to write-up, sorry)

The problem with Terra maps is that in 99% of the cases, the optimal way to play them is the same as on a Pangaea. To settle the New World you need both Astro and Communism, otherwise the new-world cities will kill your economy and bring you nothing.

Anyways, thanks for the map!

 

[krikav]

Don't read this or my answer if you are a new player and have not yet played the map.

I kinda see how the map was intended to be played:

Spoiler :

The idea was probably to build GLH, settle the islands etc. (which can be fun on an islands type of map)

But when your land is so bad and your neighbor's land is so good... And when your neighbor is Hatshie with no metals... HA rush is just so much better, no matter the difficulty. I played ~90 turns and Hatshepsut is almost dead. Then recover, tec to Cuirs -> gg.
(not much time nor energy to write-up, sorry)

The problem with Terra maps is that in 99% of the cases, the optimal way to play them is the same as on a Pangaea. To settle the New World you need both Astro and Communism, otherwise the new-world cities will kill your economy and bring you nothing.

Anyways, thanks for the map!

Thanks for the feedback Pedro!

Spoiler Answer :

Well, one can't decide how players will play, but the main purpose is for new players to learn how to utilize traits, UB/UU and read the map. Hattys capital was changed to a hill, and she got an extra food to bring her up to speed. The idea was to discourage a rush and to get the player boxed in (although not badly) and to invite a GLH attempt. Joaos traits lend him to a rapid expansion and with GLH the myriad of islands will be nice. The islands will give oppertunity to utilize the feitoria, and the lack of hammer heavy land later on makes it more interesting to settle the new continent. (Which Portugal can do at optics, not astro due to the UU) Hatty usually gets hated, so she would also act sort of like a lightning rod, letting the player build up his glorious portugeese empire.

After your feedback, I see it was probably a mistake not giving Hatty easy metal. I modified the map and uploaded a new version with that in mind.

 

[Pedro78]

@krikav

Spoiler :

The map is good as it is, no need to change anything or to reupload.

Giving an extra rice to the AI won't make it faster. BFC copper would be another story (wouldn't make it faster, but definitely harder to attack). But when it's a pushover like Hatshepsut, I'd HA-rush her anyway.

If it were Shaka or smth instead of Hatshy I'd have attacked with Elephants+Catapults. But overall when you have a neighbor with good land, and don't have any good land to settle (only a bunch of crappy islands here), war is usually the best option.

Now of course you can build a very strong commerce base with GLH + settling a bunch of islands. But in most cases it's much slower than a more aggressive approach.

The islands will give oppertunity to utilize the feitoria, and the lack of hammer heavy land later on makes it more interesting to settle the new continent. (Which Portugal can do at optics, not astro due to the UU)

2 things here:

• Feitorias suck. Period. It may only be worth to build a couple of them in very big cities when going for a late space victory. Otherwise they're simply not worth the 180 hammers (better run rep-specialists or build research/wealth)
• Carracks can carry settlers, but it is unrealistic to settle the new world before you have Astro & Communism (for SP) or are very close to both of these. Because the upkeep costs of new-world cities will simply kill you otherwise.

Hatty usually gets hated

That was on spot. Hatty was at war with 2 other guys very early in my game.


But in the end everyone is free to play the game in their own way, and settling the new world + going for space can definitely be fun (even though it requires a lot of planning and is very time-consuming if you do it "right".

 

[AcaMetis]

On Portugal's UB, plain Coast and Ocean tiles are just irredeemably awful. You're looking at a total investment of 280 (60 for the Lighthouse, 180 for the Feitoria, and another 40 for the Expansive Harbor you need to build a Feitoria), at Compass and Economics, to bring Coast up to 23, or a riverside Grassland Hamlet that'll never grow. In terms of yield, the only time you want to work Coast over running a Scientist is if you need to bank population for something, like AP votes or a massive whip.

On Portugal's UU, settling oversea colonies early is only really viable if you've got Vassal States turned off, since that also disables colonial maintenance. Otherwise you're looking at newly found cities that cost double-digit extra in maintenance, and can't get oversea connections until Astronomy. Not that such cities can't grow to be prosperous and profitable later, but it takes a long time for them to grow up and pay off that investment cost.

Finally, on an unrelated note, I noticed that the OP has a minor typo:

select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 119 Joao Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels).

This is NC 198, not 119 .

 

[krikav]

Corrected the typo, I copy-pasted from last time we played Joao which was 119.

Every strong player understands that portugals UU and UB are not that great.
What I have tried to do here is to specifically tailor a map, that will let them shine as much as they possibly can, and this wasn't exacly an easy thing to do!

As for your analysis, I don't really agree on how you calculate, even though I agree on your conclusions if we keep them at "Carrack is bad, Feitoria is bad.".

Most coastal cities have seafood, and as such they will have a lighthouse anyway. And harbors with the 3 seafood resources are a really good building for getting health up. So those hammers can't be taken into account if you want to justify the feitoria.

And the Feitoria is not just +c on ocean tiles, it's also a customs house, and as such increases commerce in all trade routes.
Ideal case you have GLH, currency and free trade, thats 5 trade routes, and each of those gives at least 1C base yield, and if you are lucky they can approach 2C.
In a crappy city that only ever works one seafood the feitoria is a 6C per turn gain for a 180H investment.
If you have a city with 2 seafood, that has 5 good connections with pop20 cities abroad, that also work 3 non-improved coastal tiles, the Feitoria is a gain of 15C per turn for a 180H investment.
On a more normal circumstance it's probably closer to 12C per turn.
(Resource: http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Trade_route_(Civ4) )

Is 12C per turn for a 180 hammer investment good? Well, that depends on alot of things.
Main problem as I see it, is that if all these conditions to justify the customs house (or feitoria) are in place. Then you already have commerce to go around, and your empire probably have more pressing needs than to increase commerce.


As for your objection to overseas colonization I agree. But if you are in a situation where you have commerce in abundance, but you are really hurting for real land and production (as will probably be the case in this map, if it's played in traditional Noble level peacemongerer simcity style), then it makes a whole lot of sense to pay up the expenses to get strong cities abroad.
That is at least the situation I have tried to create.
And it's really not an impossible task to get the forbidden palace up and running on the other continent either. It's only 200hammers.

 

[AcaMetis]

The main problem I see is how you're going to stop your 20 pop monster rivals from mass adopting Mercantilism until you're left with no one to trade with other than an eternally backwards Toku. Maybe I've just had bad experiences, but from what I recall even leaders like Mansa Musa and Hannibal won't adopt Free Market if you're going to make out like a bandit off of their trade routes.

...Okay, I just tested it, and the Forbidden Palace does actually reduce colonial maintenance as well as distance maintenance. I did not know FB worked that way. I mean you're looking at 720 worth of Courthouses before you can build Forbidden Palace, which is a hefty investment for cities that you're trying to get up and running, but yes, you can reduce colonial maintenance without waiting for Communism and flipping into State Property.

 

[Pedro78]

@krikav

If Customs Houses / Feitorias are "bad", it's mostly because of the period they become available, i.e. at Economics. There's two possible scenarios:

• You still have to expand/conquer, in which case you need hammers for units
• You already have a huge empire and want to go for space, in which case you want techs like Communism / AL / Medicine / Railroad as soon as possible, so you're gonna build research/wealth. So you realistically will never be building a Customs House / Feitoria before Factories. And at this point, you'll be done with teching in ~40 turns at the very most. Most likely you're gonna be in State Property, which means 3 trade routes per city. So yup, you might build a couple of these guys in really big coastal cities, but in any game that's not oriented towards a space victory you'll normally never build one.

 

[krikav]

It's not like I need convincing. I haven't yet built a customs house yet since I took up civ4 again. And I don't think I ever did previously either.
Much because of the reasons you mention.

I might in this game though.
If you are sitting on an empire with only seafood and traderoutes, such as you might happen to find yourself in this map, you can't really build much wealth.
Can't whip wealth/research, but you can whip Feitorias.

 

[krikav]

The main problem I see is how you're going to stop your 20 pop monster rivals from mass adopting Mercantilism until you're left with no one to trade with other than an eternally backwards Toku. Maybe I've just had bad experiences, but from what I recall even leaders like Mansa Musa and Hannibal won't adopt Free Market if you're going to make out like a bandit off of their trade routes.

...Okay, I just tested it, and the Forbidden Palace does actually reduce colonial maintenance as well as distance maintenance. I did not know FB worked that way. I mean you're looking at 720 worth of Courthouses before you can build Forbidden Palace, which is a hefty investment for cities that you're trying to get up and running, but yes, you can reduce colonial maintenance without waiting for Communism and flipping into State Property.

Yes, it's a way less reliable type of commerce than other alternatives. You go to war or lose trade routes due to merc or other reasons. I recently played an old Zara NC game, and I had Mansa as a trading partner and he did just what you said, constantly shifting to merc. Had to bribe him back to free trade a few times.

Regarding the courthouses, you can build them in the old world, and then just build Forbidden in one city in the new world. (Although I think the city where you do build it need a courthouse of it's own.
I think the best practice would be to have at least 5 courthouses in the old world, and then once your settlers start to land you settle a heavily forested spot first and chop out the forbidden palace so that you have it up once you start to get a few cities.

Come to think about it... I wonder if it could be more efficient to build forbidden palace in the center of your empire in the old world, and then simply move your old palace to the first city in the new world? Then you don't have to build a courthouse there, and you only need to build the palace for 150H.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler 1 AD :

Teched BW first.
Grew to pop2 first with 2f1h tile, then with cow.
Once at pop2 I worked two forested grassland hills to get workboat out.
3H OF into settler while WB was in transit to fish, to enable 2pop-whip later.
Stole worker from Hatty.
Had awesome luck and had a barb city spawn between me and her, wonderful shield!
Built GLH and then expanded like a madman.
Had to rush to alfa to have something to end the war with Hatty with.

Will try to keep out of wars, and continue to expand SW, and load up carracks with settlers, workers and some units asap, to settle the new world.

Whipping EXP harbors is nice to get OF into forges to be able to 3pop whip them.

 

[AcaMetis]

Come to think about it... I wonder if it could be more efficient to build forbidden palace in the center of your empire in the old world, and then simply move your old palace to the first city in the new world? Then you don't have to build a courthouse there, and you only need to build the palace for 150H.

...Much more efficient. The thing with building Courthouses in your old settlements is that they're not going to do you much actual good other than allowing you to build FP. You really want your colonies to build the Courthouses to further reduce their colonial maintenance, but they don't have the (or Slavery ) to spare.

I mean, in terms of efficiency of course it's better to put those into an army and conquer your neighbours, but if you're going to settle the New World early that sounds like the way to do it.

 

[Smilingrogue]

About the map:

Spoiler :

Terra was always going to play out like Pangaea. There is very little incentive to actually tech Optics and Astro and then settle the other continent when early or even Cuir rushes secure the game.
I am trying to play the map like Krikav - going for the new world. My goal this game is to see if I can bulb Astro before 250 AD.

@krikav
Nice work there, mate!
Can you post a save?I would like to compare notes.
I restarted because

Spoiler :

Hatty showed up with War Chariots!

 

[krikav]

Here is a 1AD save (NC198-Joao AD-0001). I had to save the game in worldbuilder and start the game without mods.
Some things seem to be lost in this process, like tech progression and culture in cities etc. But most things should look the same.
I also have the original save, but it's with buffy005 (1AD - NC198).

Spoiler :

I managed to win Lib at 720AD, and I took astro with it. With only 3 cities in the new world so far, it didn't give me such a big boost though. Once I get a few cities up, I'll have monopoly on quite a few resources though.

New cities run at 12GPT upkeek, my southern oldworld cities are very close to that too, since they are on a separate landmass and have colonial expenses as well.
I will probably make a try for economics and see if I can get that merchant, and then I'll whip feitorias and see if the myriad of islands can get useful.

A game quite different from the usual, and first time I ever try something like this on deity.

 

[ArchGhost]

Thanks for the new game krikav.

Joao is a fun leader, able to get presence on the map like mad and can attack overseas without Astro, which can preserve the effectiveness of any Colossus strat you might try on a water map with any Fishing civ.

I'll post back after I've played through and then read the thread (I don't like to know ANYTHING going into NC games other than leader, though sometimes I glimpse the start).

 

[krikav]

I'm up at turn 202 now (1420AD?)

Spoiler Game :

After having read up abit on colonial expenses and the mechanics around maintenence, I decided to replay from some turns before 1AD, to avoid getting too many cities in the southern island.
Things went very well, and I did manage to lib communism at around 700ad.
The AIs are playing nicely, hating each others guts and constanly waring and making peace but noone ever seems to get a decisive advantage.
I will probably try to go for a space win, although it's starting to get quite a hassle to manage the empire, and I am also experiencing quite abit of lag.