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[BTS] Nobles' Club 200 - Willem of the Dutch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fish Man, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I have no clue how vassal mechanics effect diplomacy really.
    It seems like the moment you get a vassal, alot of things go out the window.

    I have been friendly with an AI and being able to trade techs, and then after I get a vassal that AI is at least pleased with, I'm no longer eligable for trades even though I'm still friendly.
    So there is certainly some hidden diplomacy going on.
     
  2. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Yeah. Hence, the safety beg. It might be too late, but I don't see any fleets anywhere, and most of Darius's coastal cities are trash, so if he has no boats it'll take a while to build them on the off chance he's going for me.

    I'm slightly mad about this map, though. I designed it to be hard but not THIS hard. Even for deity the leaders' teching seems to be double what it should be. In Lain's most recent Willem game, all the AIs were a full era BEHIND at this point in time - I rewatched it, and in 1210 AD, they were at the "3 people were still missing astro" stage, not the "everyone but me has physics" stage. And Shaka was still stuck in the early Renaissance despite having more cities than any rival civ in my current game. I almost want to pop a few great spies into AI cities just to see what the heck is going on in there.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    This is my understanding of it:
    If you see a red fist you can beg, and if the fist dissapears it was you who was the target.
    If the fist doesn't dissapear, you where not the target anyway.

    I don't think vassals change this, but I would like to know for sure.
     
  4. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    I begged. It didn't disappear. Also Darius has a total of 1 galleon and 1 frigate AFAIK. And his army is on Zara's border (he's pleased with Zara but cautious with Justinian and the fastest way to Justinian is through Zara - though I really don't think the AI is smart enough to acknowledge the existence of DPs when pathfinding).

    If you're right (and I'm hoping you are), you'd better be ready for some :popcorn:. Because this is the ultimate showdown, a battle between 2 alliances (or 3, depending on who I throw my lot in with), encompassing the entire planet. Zara and Justinian vs Darius and Mansa, the peacemongers vs the expansionists (though it's probably the peacemongers who'll declare). Who will triumph in this upcoming conflict of astronomical proportions?

    Place your bets now :crazyeye:
     
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yes, he can plot on you. It's based on his average attitude towards your team. And this doesn't mean you just add the numerical attitudes and divide by 3, but that if he is pleased towards you and cautious towards your vassals, he is cautious towards all of you. Pretty sure it's rounded down, as always in this game. So for example friendly+pleased+cautious=pleased, but pleased+pleased+cautious=cautious. Get your muppets into free religion.

    They don't always stop plotting even after a beg succeeds. Sometimes they just wait 10 turns and declare anyway. I do not know what causes this behavior.

    However, I think he is plotting on Justin. Land target and I don't think the defensive pact is taken into account. So my bet is that he declares on team green+gray and that you will win this game. :)
     
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  6. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Thanks for the vassal tip - did not know about that! So it's just like Java truncating numbers then, 2.99999 = 2.

    Yep, agreed. And the fact that he doesn't have a navy nor shows much interest in building one (have NEVER seen him have ships on the open seas, and last I checked his "major" port city it contained a navy of 2).

    That's a good idea, FR swap is long overdue. But...if I keep Pacal/Cathy as hated, they can't trade with the giant lovefest (at least for now) that's been going on for the past 2000 years. And I'm going to destroy everyone in 70 or less turns anyways. Worth it?
     
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  7. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Well, I finally did it @krikav. Turn 241 domination (would've been t243 conquest anyways) with tankspam. By the end I had roughly 80 modern armors accompanied by the 10 or so cavalry left over from the cuir rush and some other misc units (didn't count clearly but might've been the first 100+-unit stack I've ever assembled). I didn't think I would make it, especially when Darius stopped plotting (no world war :() but with the help of dikes and GE-rushing an ironworks I managed to industrialize in under 20 turns. Got some lucky trades too - physics and electricity from Mansa, bio from Cathy, and...industrialism from Mansa around 1450 AD?!? Darius is teching at a worryingly fast pace and handing out free stuff to his vassal left and right. This is not OK. I'm super glad I didn't try to cavrush him because cavs vs infantry...it doesn't work. It just doesn't, trust me.

    After the long march to industrialism + combustion (the House of Oranje gets 1400AD tanks, you're welcome), I built around 50 tanks with the power of a caste-SP pure hammer economy, no whips anymore, and shipped them to the city at the SE edge of Persia (forgot the name). In the process I bribed Zara on him with fission (this might come back to haunt me later...). I landed to find a city filled with...grenadiers, cannons, and longbows? Uh, he has industrialism and rifling already but OK I guess I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

    I was prepared for a long and bloody slog...but Darius, the 15 city monster, capitulated after I captured 2 cities. Two. Cities. First the insane tech pace, and now the almost comically extreme cowardice from the production juggernaut of this game? Just what is going on with this game?

    I think what happened was several things. First, Darius went for radio and industrialism before rifling, because he's a super peaceful AI. So when I attacked he only had rifling for about 5-10 turns, maybe less. Which means that he didn't get the chance to upgrade his (all things considered pretty pathetic) stack of units to infantry, and defended with longbows and grens when I first landed (though he did upgrade more later on but still not all). A longbow costs 300 gold to upgrade to infantry by my calculations; for a deity AI that's 30 gold, which seems little but when you have 50 such units it adds up. So I massacred his outdated stack with 0 casualties, leading to a ridiculous amount of war success, and when he capitulated it was also partly because a lot of his military were still musket-level units and cuirs.

    Besides the war success and facing the combined might of 2 empires, though, another thing aided in his capitulation: Mansa, his vassal, chose to break free after he saw him getting trounced by me. The lack of a vassal makes capitulation significantly easier; without it, you have to either completely destroy the vassal or beat the master down to his last 3 or so cities to have any chance of getting a surrender offer. So the end of vassalage, me bribing Zara, at least 100 war success, and outdated units combined to make what should've been a 30-turn war take about 3 turns.

    After that Mansa folded in 1 turn. Typical. As I consolidated my tanks to go after Justinian, I also built nukes, for good measure. A lot of nukes. On the first turn I nuked his main stack and weakened it so much that a handful of cuirs were winning against infantry. Saved my tanks for the harder fights ahead, and I feel like I denied his oil just in time to prevent a tank wave from attacking. He offered to capitulate but oh no you're not getting off that easy :nono:. I insisted on taking his capital and 2 other cities first before accepting his offer.

    After breaking Justin I was STILL not over the dom limit, so my attention turned to Zara. Zara could tech robotics so I took no chances and waited for composites to roll around, which was actually pretty fast with Darius getting satellites for me. 1630AD modern armor, how about that :crazyeye:. My worst fear came true as Zara somehow got not only robotics but also composites at around the same time (The Internet??? idk). Didn't matter, though. He used his 3-4 nukes on Justinian, I think (so much for their BFF status...) instead of my stack. A stockpile of ICBMs and 80x 40-strength CR units plowed through what meager resistance was left, and I won domination a turn or two before he capped as well.

    This was by far the most difficult deity game I've played, if you take into account the challenge condition and consider going over t249 OR not winning militarily (cough cough diplo) a loss. Tech pace was crazy (I've NEVER SEEN them go this fast, though considering how I hand-picked the best techers and strongest civs I should've expected it), AIs were crazy, everything was just wild from beginning to end. I'm actually quite astonished I managed to pull this one off; there were several times I thought there was no way X was gonna work (libbing cuirs AFTER bulb astro, going after Cathy when most people already had rifles/grens, and tanking Darius were the main 3). Now that I've gotten this burden off my shoulders (because quite frankly it was beginning to be one, albeit a fun one), I can finally start thinking of ideas for the next NC. If you've gotten this far, thanks (or should I say tanks) for reading, and see you in the next one!

    And now some pics:

    The greatest tank army ever assembled
    Spoiler :




    KA-BOOM
    Spoiler :




    My original couple of cities; from humble beginnings to complete map control at its finest (you guys probably have no idea who he is but I feel about as good about myself as that guy after I spent 2 weeks planning and calculating and redoing turns until I could finish the challenge I had set)
    Spoiler :




    PS - didn't build a single university or observatory this game, and definitely not Oxford - who needs higher education anyways? I'd say things turned out pretty well, which just goes to show that more cities >>> science buildings in terms of growing your economy, by far. 3 more cuirs or tanks were always a better investment at any stage of this particular game ;).
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
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  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Undefeatable
    Very impressive manly-man victory!
    I do get the idea that it requires some perfecly timed rocketjumps to pull that early dom victory of on this map.
    Still not sure how on the earth the techrate could go through the roof like that in your game.

    Looking forward to the next NC game.
     
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  9. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Thanks! It was quite the Herculean task if I do say so myself. Next up is probably an easier map, partly for the sake of my own sanity.

    Speaking of rocket jumps...there are only three specific things in games really comparable to the difficulty of these deity maps, IMO, and one of them is jump maps as soldier. I assume you know what TF2 is (to be fair I'm pleasantly surprised you do) so believe me when I say I can probably conquer any uncooked deity map with a lot of re-dos but will never come close to finishing a jump map like this (really impressive part starts at 7:00-ish, it's accepted as one of the hardest jump maps of all time). But I digress.

    To be fair, I think the tech pace was due to hand-picked OP AIs, but also the map. Low sea level meant everyone had wayyy too much land, and the "arid" setting just happened to make it so that it seemed like every other tile on the other continent was a floodplain. As bad as the AI is even it usually knows well enough to cottage the crap out of those juicy 3f tiles. And the two pair of best buds on the largest landmass (Zara + Justin, Darius + Mansa) were friendly within their respective cliques, which meant unlimited tech trading. The reason a friendly-friendly pair of AI at tech parity is so dangerous is because the AIs cheat and know exactly how many beakers everyone else has put into any tech. At the same time, they avoid going for techs other players have already researched or even invested beakers in. And Zara/Justin had different tech flavors. So what happened was probably one leader chose certain techs to research, the other avoided those techs because someone had already put beakers into them, and they gave each other ripoff trades. And the teching power of each civ was essentially that of 2 civs combined - a total of 24 well-cottaged fully-developed modernized green/FP cities. Plus there was a DP, and because of that and pretty similar peaceweights there were absolutely no wars except for the ones I started. Without wars and because the AIs were not unitspammers like Shaka, everyone could sit back in their corner and quietly just build wealth/research/infrastructure instead of wasting hamemrs/commerce on warring. Because of that, the lovefest ballooned to epic proportions, to the point where people were getting modern armor and mech inf before 1650AD.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Are you sure about AIs knowing other AIs tech, and taking that into account?
    I have seen dozens of times the AI I have EPs on being something like 3 turns away from a "get here first and get a bonus"-tech like for example CoL.
    Then "Confucianism was found in a distant land" and that AI changes their tech.
     
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Contemplating playing this but I don't like low sea level. This will mean a lot of land and no extra Ai to fill it.
     
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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I was not even aware. My perception is that it didnt factor in too much.
     
  13. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Yeah, AIs will very likely not start on a tech that already has significant beakers invested into it by someone. But one explanation is that both AIs started teching the tech at around the same time, but one with a much better economy got it first. Another is that the AI values freebies so highly it'll go after, say, stuff like music or religions depending on its flavor no matter how close someone else is because they're programmed to be just that greedy, overriding its usual semi-intelligence in this regard. Finally, maybe the AI that's researching CoL and the AI founding confu has not met yet - in which case, I'm pretty sure they can't see each others' tech because they don't know each other exist.

    I'm confident that, besides these situations and maybe 1 or 2 more I can't think of, AI "cheats" and sees each others' tech progress - otherwise, how would they offer such exact trade deals to both you and other AIs, and how else would Zara blaze through the modern era twice as fast as me, even though I have more than twice as many cities as him, doesn't build farms everywhere like an idiot, and have 2 vassals teching for me, without almost always researching the tech that Justinian was NOT?

    Besides that though I know for certain that AIs stay more away from already-researched techs since the assume they can trade for it. Which is actually something that happens - AIs will trade like crazy if you let them fester. This is from observation only, but, for example - when I get rifling nobody goes for replaceable parts despite having electricity or beyond, while on the instance of the game that I didn't 2 AIs went straight for rifling and got it before 1200AD. And AIs will more often stay away from techs half or almost fully researched by the player, which is the reason why putting a bulb into education greatly increases your chances no AI will bot straight for lib.

    I put low sea level specifically to help one or more people on the other continent(s) snowball :devil:. Are you up for the challenge?
     
  14. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yeah this game is going to be one long game to finish. I don't see myself losing it at this point but lot of work still to be done. Ai have a lot of land it seems. Low sea level!

    Spoiler Up to 920AD :


    Up to 775bc

    Techs - Mining/BW/AH/TW/HBR/Hunting/Archery

    Settled horse/fish and cow site first. Followed by double clam/cow site.

    Having found Pascal and his amazing land my first thought was HA rush. 875BC i declared and took Mutal. This point I took peace.

    Up to 1ad.
    Wiped out final pascal city for it's silver which he had mostly hooked up.
    Settled for the gold site.
    Built roads to connect the 2 empires.
    Settled furs, clams and Rice sites. Along with the island site that has the werid commerce tile in the ocean. Land!

    Settled on the stone. I needed mids. Chopped mids in the gold city. About 10 forest fell. Switched to rep.

    11 cities at this point.

    up to 920ad.
    Captured 3 barb cities.
    Settled further island city albeit in wrong place. Not sure when that Ai city culture popped up.
    Also settled city west of Amsterdam. Along with cow/sugar site.

    18 cities covering most of the best city sites.

    Justinian has 11 cities. Not sure how big the other AI are. The Ap has been built which is a threat.

    Justinian has 7-8 techs I am missing. I have edu/lib and nationalism.

    I probably could be doing more for city development. I need astronomy and MT to start some wars. So Machinery/GP/MT/optics and astronomy. Getting 527 beakers at 100% science. Could be higher if I switched to scientists.

    Might try for TM wonder.

     

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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
  15. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    So after some peeking behind the scenes, I put together an explanation for why Zara teched so fast.

    I saved the scenario into WB and changed all PlayableCiv numbers to 1, enabling me to astrally project myself into Zara right before Willy's final DoW and take a comprehensive peek at his empire. He was making a solid 1750-ish bpt with 10 cities, enough to tech satellites in 5 turns on deity if he was the player (that is, I loaded into Zara on deity difficulty). This by itself is a more impressive economy than I thought, by quite a bit.

    Now here's the thing. AI tech costs on deity are, by default, the same as the player's on noble. HOWEVER, the deity AI gets a -5% cost reduction for basically everything every era, and this is the thing that makes deity truly scary. It adds up real quick! An AI with 15-20 cities in the classical era is still manageable, and actually might be crippling itself in the short term with its overexpansion into questionable spots and terrible use of worker turns/improvements. But once it develops those cities and gets the additive bonuses, it turns into a truly fearsome juggernaut that, in the modern era, can build 2 units to replace every 1 you kill while maintaining a 100-unit stack and gobbling up an ultra-expensive tech every 2-3 turns.

    So we can safely assume here that the deity AI's tech costs in the modern era are 75% of noble. The player's tech costs on deity are 130%(?) of noble. That means techs are literally half off in the modern era, for all deity AIs compared to the player :eek:!

    Add the fact that Zara somehow got his cities to supersize (this is an actual mystery - there doesn't nearly seem to be enough food to sustain that much pop, especially a size 28 cap), and the fact that he had enough production to build the full set of 4 science buildings in every one, and it's no wonder why he got so far so fast. In fact, I guess I should be thankful he neither vassaled anyone, got more land, nor adopted more useful civics like caste system, state property, free religion, and rep!
     
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I need to play on this game. Been a bit distracted with a jig saw and other things.

    I agree the air were teaching super fast this game. I over expanded here really. Low sea levels are frustrating for many reasons.
     
  17. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    Congratz to the UN victory. I looked at your save and i did like what i saw. Very solid game. Looks like you had to race against darius culture victory in around 30 turns.
     
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  18. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    ohmygod I'M GETTING NOTICED BY A YOUTUBE CELEB THIS IS SOOO COOL!
     
  19. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    woah nice AZ back with some juicy civ 4. I really like his Civ 4 and diablo 2 videos. The other ones ..... Unfortunately not my cup of tea. Couldn t care less about Heroes 3 - 5 and all the old games like langrisser or shinig force. Also Heroes of might and magic is horrible game. Too much nostalgia for me.
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    AZ playing NC200? nice.
    I'm 99% sure that he will HA-rush pacal. :)
    Thats so his style.
     

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