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[BTS] Nobles' Club 200 - Willem of the Dutch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Fish Man, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Heroes 3 is awesome, best strategy game ever made imo besides Civ4.
     
  2. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Disappointed that he didn't, nor did he take the advice of bulbing astro for iso or semi-iso...

    I'm not optimistic he can pull his way out of this one (epII has been uploaded) :(

    But we'll see!
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    EDIT Can't seem to get timestamped youtube link to work...
    At around 45:30 in part two, and 30 seconds or so from there.
    /EDIT
    It seems that he had a similar experience as me, as far as using pacal as a trading partner. :)
     
  4. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Here in germany (okay i am in budapest, but i am german) we have a saying :

    "Einem alten Hund kannst du keine neuen tricks mehr beibringen"

    Translation : "You can not teach new tricks to an old dog"

    For the sake of god it shall be said that i do not want to compare Chris to a dog. He is still a great Civ 4 player, but i doubt he will ever invest as much time into the game again as he used to. Therefor also not learn the new strategies like the "metagame" for isolation or semi - isolation with the astrobulb that you guys found out together in Lains thread.
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Hmmm

    Spoiler AZ part 2 and my game :
    When meeting the AI from the other land mass and finding out they pretty much have lib circa 660ad. He didn't check the map settings when he started. Overall this is a crazy map for Deity. Low sea level adds a difficulty level really. Only plus is with Pascal as a neighbour you can be pretty sure of a peqaceful game. In AZ case Justin has already taken a vassal. Easiest route will likely be UN and to invade Pascal. Right now military win looks a long way off.

    I am still playing. My cuirs plan will mean fighting against other cuirs. I think over expansion is going to cost me.

     
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  7. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Cuirs v cuirs is not that bad. Better than cuirs v hill muskets or some stuff like that (in fact that might by why you WANT them to have MT if they already have gunpowder). Good luck, I believe in you! :thumbsup:
     
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Not really played civ 4 all week. Need to get back on the saddle this weekend.
     
  9. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    Getting back to Civ4 with the latest Nobles' Club game.

    1AD Deity
    Spoiler :

    This map feels quite promising at the start. Pacal got an early religion as he often does, and instead of settlers he built missionaries early on, making it easy to grab land from him. It doesn't look like there's any nearby civs. It took a gamble by settling the island near my capital hoping to see land and sure enough there is land there. Probably another island considering that nobody has contacted me from that direction.

    I'm at 1AD and just finished Metal Casting, but unfortunately I can't get any trades from it. Not even Mysticism is on the table. I partially teched Alpha and Iron Working when I was being indecisive. Next in line I'll just self-tech Iron Working, spam cottages on the massive land I've got and shoot past Pacal from there. I should have 2 GS to bulb Astronomy soon after I get my tech rate up.

    Spoiler :



    125AD
    Spoiler :

    This timing was what I was going for from the start. Also the size of the island perfectly makes his settler party get booted off it.
    Spoiler :



    560AD
    Spoiler :

    As I loaded up the game this morning while sipping my freshly brewed hipster coffee, there was a figurative spit-take when I saw the situation I found myself in.

    First of all, the map looks to be quite big. 1200+ land tiles, which makes it a challenge to beat if there's a right mix of leaders on the map all with ~15 cities.

    My economic situation while not hopeless, is quite bad. In hindsight, I should've beelined for Currency much earlier than I did. Settling all of those cities with +1 trade routes while building wealth instead of forges would've got me to Optics much earlier.

    Spoiler :




    This is the tech picture:
    Spoiler :



    Thus far I've self-teched everything, which is terrible. I was considering going for Compass before Currency, but chose to self-tech Currency so as to avoid the situation where I can't get Currency for it and find myself even further behind. After Currency I got Compass, which I have on both Pacal and Justinian, and judging by the value I'd get for it neither is going for it yet.

    I can't get to Justinian's shores yet as I only see ocean tiles within his borders. I think the way it works the tiles must be within the sight of my ships, so trading for his map wouldn't help. I should be able to bulb Optics here pretty soon anyway, so it's not that bad.

    I traded my map to Justinian for the rest of Alpha + a bunch of gold, so I'll have to watch out he doesn't get the circumnavigation bonus before me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  10. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    1000AD

    Spoiler :

    Since the last update I've been cautiously stabilizing my economy.

    Tech situation:
    Spoiler :

    I've finally got to Astronomy, but unfortunately was not the first to it. Mansa, Darius and Zara all have it now, but if I get lucky I might be able to trade it for education from Justinian. Because of my overeager expanding and sloppy GS timing planning I got the tech very late.



    Diplomacy:
    Spoiler :

    Doesn't look too bad. Mansa is a non-factor in this game both in terms of number of cities and he's not getting along with people. However, my hope of trading Astro for Education hangs by a thin thread, because Zara has Astronomy and him and Justinian are friendly/pleased. If I don't get the trade it's not the end of the world, but would be nice. There's a good amount of hate going on. Zara is kicking Catherine's ass in war, but won't be vassaling her any time soon because there's water between them.



    Short-term plans:
    Spoiler :

    There's an island between me and Catherine. I'm quite late to notice it, but because of the war between her and Zara she hasn't had the time to settle it yet. I'm building two settlers and a East Indiaman to grab it before she gets the chance.
    Spoiler :



    Regarding tech/warring prospects, I think it will be prudent to wait for factories and go stomp the world with infantry/artillery once I've fully developed my land. I may go for Pacal with cannons if I have the time because he's small and soft, but we'll see.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  11. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Nice job expanding, and welcome back! Time might not be on your side, though. With 12-13 cities and trading the AI can easily get stuff like mech inf in the 1600s-1700s. You've got a lot of good land, but you could very well run out of time to use it.
     
  12. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    I agree that my position is not the best one possible. I played a few turns since my last update and in 1350AD I'm behind everybody in tech. I've managed to get a few decent trades for Rifling, Scientific Method and something else, and will get to Assembly Line in around 1500AD. From there I think the game will be a long grind if I want to finish it. I might try replaying this with more accuracy to see how well I could've done if I had hopped on the tech trading train earlier.

    Spoiler :






     
  13. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    Ok, I decided to play this one again. My first attempt was not very carefully played and I had had a few too many beers while getting my empire up and running, which is not often a good thing. :)

    This time I built something else than settlers, too. Mainly fail gold with my marble and gold that I traded from Pacal (got meditation for Schwegady Pegady). Tech path steered toward Aesthetics/Literature for this reason. I got about 700 fail gold for the Parthenon, and managed to snag the GL in my high-production city north of Amsterdam in the 400's BC. I don't think it was a wise decision to let the GL finish because of the abundant food all around, and that I won't be running too many specialist at that spot because of the high hammer count.

    Speaking of hammers, this time I gave some thought on where to settle and why. That's why I don't have 20 cities randomly slapped on the map. Also the detour to settle the one useless island without food, while it lead me to meet Justinian was not very smart. I think the situation where I'm at now is much more comfortable. I got Astro in 680AD, which was quite close to what I would consider optimal in this situation given my shortcomings at this game. I could've shaved a few turns off but this is still a much better place to be than the 1000AD Astro that I got on my first attempt.

    680 AD:
    Spoiler :






     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  14. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Nice, that's much better! You'll definitely be able to get some juicy trades for astro, maybe pawn compass/optics to Darius as well. I think lib is a lost cause now; however, you don't need it for steel :).
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Zara+Justantin is the same religion this time, darius is buddhist too.
    You have a backdoor for an "easy" diplo win if you can't manage anything else. Just settle those 20 cities, tech bio and adopt buddhism+theocracy.
     
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  16. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    I sorta kept that in mind designing this map, put in strong AIs but also ones that are easy to befriend and have same favorite civics and likely similar religions. So if can't keep up with tech for conquest, at least you can do diplo :).

    Also @JSS you might want to consider taking out Pacal, his land is thicc and he's not a unitspammer so it'll be easy with cannons vs muskets and other medieval stuff.
     
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  17. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    Thanks. Yeah I think Zara and a few others are going a bit too fast for me to have hopes of getting to Lib first, but that's ok. It's not too often that that's possible when going for double bulb Astro in semi-isolation from my experience. As you hinted, I think Steel's definitely the plan here. Not sure yet who I'm going for first, but Pacal should be a squishy natural land target. With East Indiamen though going overseas first shouldn't be too difficult.

    Wrt. Buddhism, I think I'm going to switch to it soon after it spreads to me in order to be safe while taking out Pacal if I so choose (which I probably will). I don't think I'm going for the Diplo win, it's conquest/domination or nothing. :) Unless the game drags on long and the finishing blow is obvious but taking too much effort and the diplo route is faster.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  18. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    Getting back to this game today. I took a glance at the situation a couple of times during the week but didn't have the energy to start making decisions, but I want to wrap this game up during the weekend, so I'm going to force myself to play.

    A decision I'm not so sure about is whether to build Courthouses or not? I rarely build them at this point yet. I'm still in Organized Religion, have 10 cities and they would definitely cut down the maintenance. 2-pop whipping them would not be so bad, although the loss of 2 citizens in my cities would offset the amount of saved gpt in short term, and I don't think I should have long term in mind at this moment, but I should be fully gearing up for war. I do have some time before I reach Steel, but I think the best things to build right now would be wealth, Trebuchets (once I've traded for Engineering) and Macemen. Getting to Steel and eventually to Rifling should allow me to take out Pacal and maybe another civ, although that's a maybe because these AIs seem to tech and trade very fast.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @JSS:

    Spoiler :

    Compromise.
    Whip them in Utrecht, Nijmegen and Maestricht.
    These cities are up to size/speed and will be hurt the least by the whip. And their relative distance from your comming palace make them benefit the most.
    Most of them probalby also already have forges in place?
    Don't touch the small cities which still need time to get up in population, and possibly also get a forge of their own, and a barracks.

    Generally, it's best to just avoid courthouses and just iron on with wealth-building untill you reach state property.

    However... If you are mired down in a drawn out war it might be beneficial to get up a few to limp along economically.
    In other circumstances, you simply have the time to get them up.
    The 2EP point per building, and the ability to run spies is also worth something.

    IIrc Pacal was quite a pushover who lacked production on this map.
    You can probably take him out with only trebs+rifles, or possible just with macemen. It's also nice to have a bunch of maces that can tag along once you start fighting with rifles/cannons, that can take cheap shots once everything is cannonized, be promoted to CR3 and then upgraded.
     
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  20. JSS

    JSS Chieftain

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    1100 AD
    Spoiler :

    @krikav Thanks. I did something along the lines of what you suggested. I think I whipped one courthouse and slow-built them in a couple of places where food surplus was not very high but a lot of hammers. They're good buildings but nothing to go out of my way in order to get for.

    Wrt. tech, I managed to get quite a few decent trades from Compass/Optics/CS. If I recall correctly, I got partially researched CS from Darius for Compass, then on subsequent turns Feudalism for Optics from Darius and CS for Paper from somebody who I fail to remember. Because the AIs were overall quite close to one another in tech and there were no good trades from Education available, I held onto Astronomy as soon as I could and traded it for Education when someone was getting close to getting it so as to avoid it getting passed around uncontrollably between the AIs.

    After I got CS I had 13 turns to get my next GP. I did some quick math and chose not to switch to Bureaucracy until I started my golden age. The total gold + production yield would've been close to what the rest of my empire generated in 1 turn, but the food worked turned the decision against switching quite easy. During the GA I generated two Great Merchants that I sent to Adrianople where the ToA is. In total I got 4200 gold from the trade missions.

    At the moment I'd be able to get Liberalism, Corporation and Scientific Method by trading Replaceable Parts and Rifling to Pacal, Zara and Darius. I'll do the trades when one more AI gets to Rifling. Probably not very smart though, given how Mansa likes to trade techs around. I'll have to think this through with more clarity because there's clearly a problem here.

    Civics I switched into on my last turn of the golden age:
    Spoiler :




    Tech screen
    Spoiler :




    Zara can be a useful AI in that he can be bribed to war at Cautious. At the moment I could bribe him against Catherine or Pacal, both for the price of 2000+ gold and Rifling, but I don't think either would be worth it. Pacal I can handle myself, and Catherine would probably lose her cities on the main landmass quite quickly, and I don't need Zara to get bigger. I'd also rather use the gold for teching and upgrading my trebs.

    Diplo situation is not looking too bad. Justinian started plotting while he was annoyed towards me, and a few turns later insisted I give him Replaceable Parts and I chose to comply. Soon after that he attacked Darius, which was a pleasant surprise. If they keep having at it for a while, I'll swoop in after I'm done with Pacal and kindly ask if they have some nice cities they want to give under my control.
    Spoiler :




    Overview
    Spoiler :



     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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