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Nobles' Club 202 - Churchil of England

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Wow, did not know that! Thanks! :)
    If the choice is en par with what automated workers manage, it's not far from lost though!
     
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  2. as2w

    as2w Chieftain

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    Thanks everyone for the replies on the questions.

    @krikav Thanks for the great explanation on the turn sequencing. I had forgotten about the differences in difficulty when asking my question. That cleared it up for me.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    No problem at all, thanks for asking and taking part in the Nobles Club! :)
     
  4. ronaldsf

    ronaldsf Chieftain

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    Hoo boy, when I started my game I didn't know that there'd be a lot of Deity players here. Be nice!

    The hardest difficulty I've won on was Monarch. I nearly one an Emperor space victory as the English this month. (Miscalculated the timing of my razing his 3rd legendary city. Dammit!) I was in the middle of the pack score-wise for much of that game, until I leveraged my Redcoats to annex nearly all of another empire save for 1 city. I was in the lead by score, but the war left me several techs behind 3 or 4 other civs. Still, I caught up with them and my industrial advantage had me set to win the space race. BUT Mansa Musa was due to win first with a Cultural Victory. I tried to raze his 3rd Legendary city but was 1 or 2 turns too late. (Dammit!)

    I am focusing now on strengthening my start so that I can be better positioned entering the Renaissance.

    Well, I started this NC game as an Emperor w/ huts game, and after 1000AD I took a screenshot and realized I could have expanded more quickly. I was only at 3 cities and I had some ideas of what I could have done better, so I've now moved on to a different Emperor game to try to do better.

    Anyway, reviewing other people's T70 posts, I had some thoughts and questions:

    Spoiler 1000 BC: :

    - After moving the warrior SW, I decided to settle on the western coast to grab a second food resource tile. It looks like one else here did. It seems like I underestimated the importance of a plains hill tile in accelerating my growth curve. Also, I thought to myself "What's 1 or 2 turns before settling?" Am I grossly underestimating the importance of time?
    - I went for Animal Husbandry, which required 2 techs and slowed me down. Now I think I should have leveraged Mining to get Bronze Working to rely on chops instead of whips for initial acceleration. Better to accelerate earlier than to accelerate more sometimes.
    - I exercised care here, having read the War Room article on whipping and playing pretty slowly. But perhaps I could have prioritized settlers more than infrastructure? I read somewhere that a rule of thumb is to keep my science rate at 50% or above. But I see some Deity players have turned their Science down to zero. Is this an optimization tactic? And is the 50% guideline bunk?

    My research order was: Hunting --> Animal Husbandry --> Bronze Working --> Wheel --> Pottery --> Writing --> Polytheism --> Priesthood (Hoping to nab Oracle but I'm probably going to be too late... ?) --> Mathematics (to get to Calendar)

    Here is a screenshot. Any comments are appreciated:

    -I realize that my capital is not connected to my other cities... Doh! I suppose that's another argument to found on the wines hill tile (to be next to a river)




    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @ronaldsf Very nice to have you taking part!
    There are always a crowd of lurkers (40-70 aprox) who download these games, and not that many leaving comments, so I think you are in good company even though not that many speak up. :)
    I really appreciate people at all difficulty levels taking part in both the games, but also in the discussion.
    The difficulty levels doesn't change much of the core ideas, it's more that alot of things you can get away with on lower difficulties are simply not possible higher up. Other than that, it's the same game!

    The screenshot doesn't work unfortunatly.

    Moving west to get both sheep+cow in the capital is a solid choice imho.
    When I was the opening for the first time, I thought it was worth a gamble that perhaps there could be more food. And settling on PH-wine gives you +1H and +1C early on. And plains cow and oasis make it CLOSE to bearable, althought bothersome. :)
    If I would have seen the entire map at T0, I would have seriously considered moving to reach the sheep. So I think your intuition is good there. Food is king!

    You do underestimate the importance of time I think, turns fly by in the opening, but consider how much you would value a turn later when you declare a war. Well... a turn saved early on does put you one turn ahead.
    Settling on PH and getting you a extra hammer first loses a turn, but then your worker arrives 3 turns earlier, so you basically save two turns.

    50% slider sounds like a extremly crude aproximation, and should not be taken seriously.

    Infrastructure is often not that useful. Settlers are better
    Curious why you want to go calendar, that sounds totally off! There are no calendar resources around. :) MoM is a fantastic wonder and there is marble available, but calendar here is a mistake.
    I think that if you have gone myst->poly, you should go the full aestethics route with aestethics->litterature and make a try for GLib.
    The two other marble national wonders (Heroic Epic and National Epic) is wonderful for failgold. You almost build them in say two cities, and then you finish them in a third. That way you get a really good injection of failgold, making you able to tech faster.

    Land is rather food poor, and I did not whip much here.

    In fact, that the land is abit food starved (especially the PH-wine capital) is what I think was interesting with this map, and why I enjoyed it so much.
     
  6. Agni Neres

    Agni Neres Master of RiverSerpent

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    I decided to give this a try, using the Monarch with Huts save. I also have Better Bat AI installed. Not sure how much that changes things.

    I settled the hill wine tile, and went Hunting --> AH. The first hut gave me BW, sweet :)

    When I saw the Marble my eyes lit up, and I decided to play Wonders, the Marble ones of course. So my second city was one tile west of the marble. Guess maybe on Deity that would not work, as none of you went that route.

    Oracle to CoL, got the religion which spread nicely at first. Parthenon also. Lots of forests to chop the wonders. Soon, I got the GPr and built the holy building. Future cities got a Missionary to provide their border pops. Shwedagon Paya let me settle into Organized Religion, and I teched Monarchy for the wine and martial law happy. The missionaries also served as scouts to map the AI territories (other than Monty and Sally, who would not open borders). And I bulbed at least four good techs along the way.

    This may be a BBAI thing, but I got a quest to build 7 libraries, which I completed for a reward (not sure what at the moment). So I prioritized Libraries early on. Later, I prioritized Courthouses. This gave me lots of Spy points when I eventually met the AI. I also built the Monasteries for +10% tech.

    Things I learned: Barb Warriors / Archers would not attack my fortified Warrior screeners, so I had to build a few Axes. Galleys, and even Triremes, do not beat barb galleys -- I lost several before hanging it up and waiting for Caravels. I tried out Windmills and Watermills for the first time, seemed to do OK on this map. And one thing that took a bit, how the 'one free specialist' for Mercantile works -- I had several small cities that would only make a citizen. Drove me crazy, until I realized they needed the building to be assigned. As my courthouses completed, the game automatically reassigned them as spies.

    I have a lot of learning to do on the diplomacy. I was about even in tech when we made contact, managed to trade a bit, but really no one likes old Churchy much. Am I supposed to give 2000 beakers of tech, for a 600 beaker tech, just to make a friend (and when his enemy will hate me for trading with him?)

    I lost the Lib race, but won the +1 sea movement. My next tech will be Replaceable Parts. I'm approx 1600 AD.

    Wondering if maybe I can just use my Spy advantage to steal a few techs, and race for space without an overseas D-Day? I've never done spies before.

    Anyway thanks for the game.
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Agni Neres
    Thanks for taking part, and thanks for sharing!
    Do put up some screenshots if you can, it's nice for all lurkers.

    When handling barb galleys, it's best to defend and let them attack you, since being on coast gives you a defensive bonus. And Triemes is really a must.
    I didn't pay much attention to the barb-infested south until much later.

    Watermills are nice once you reach state property, but windmills are useful right of the bat at food-starved locations, if not for anything else, so for something to grow on.
    Once you reach replaceable parts, windmills are superior to mines until you reach railroads.
    Improvements should ideally be changed as you play along.
    A good thing to do in periods when workers has little to do, is to pre-improve such mines.
    If I have a windmill, and waiting for railroad and my workers have little to do, I just do 3 out of 4 turns (or what it is at that moment), so when the key tech is in, I can get mines up all over the place really quickly!

    The site you choose to grab the marble is an perfecly acceptable spot. A nice thing with it, is that it can work the copper tile and take a food load of our meager capital whenever we want to grow.
    I settled that site later too. It's just that you really want to develop the best sites first. :)
    I can see that if you wanted to do a oracle play, you had to settle it second, but it's not a very good habit to cultivate if you have ambitions to beat the game at higher difficulties.
     
  8. ronaldsf

    ronaldsf Chieftain

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    @krikav thanks for the thorough reply!

    Yeah that's what I thought. I will look concretely at what the new maintenance cost will be and weigh how much it will hit my economy to see if it's worth settling.
    This game was a while ago, and so I don't remember anymore why I was researching Calendar!
    I thought that national wonders don't give failgold, since you aren't competing with the AI for them?
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Regarding national wonders.
    You can parcially build them in one city, and then finish them in another city. You then get failgold equivalent to the amount of hammers invested in the national wonder in the cities that failed to build it.

    This can be useful with the wonders that gets boosted by marble, since you can then spend 100 hammers building it, but get 200 hammers invested, then you get 200 gold when you finish it elsewhere.

    It's no free lunch with these two though, national epic requires library in all cities partaking in the fun, and heroic epic not only requires barracks, but also a unit of level 4 (10xp for non-cha leaders) which can be tricky to get in isolation.
     

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