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Nobles' Club 204 - Peter of Russia

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by elementoffear, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. elementoffear

    elementoffear Chieftain

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    Making a quick post here without the usual texts for now since I spent way too long on this one and wanted to get it out for the weekend.

    Saves where made with the script so fingers crossed its all good.

    Info :
    Spoiler :
    Made a lonely hearts club edition, with fractal on high sea level:

    Screenshot
    Spoiler :


     

    Attached Files:

  2. Undefeatable

    Undefeatable Chieftain

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    There'd better be some darn stone near that start. Otherwise it's gonna feel like one of those parties where there's way too much food to eat and not enough people to eat it.
     
  3. elementoffear

    elementoffear Chieftain

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    Honestly, I was looking at other things when regenerating, stone was not on my radar so I don't even remember if there is or there is not.
     
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  4. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Fishing start with 4 food resources looks tricky. Maybe even want to consider settling 1 S just to make sure you are able to settle another city to the North to share the corn.
     
  5. elementoffear

    elementoffear Chieftain

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    (no spoiler) I always move the scout/warrior on a hill before settling to see if moving the settler is worth it.
     
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  6. ontariel

    ontariel Chieftain

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    Hi everyone,

    I have been luring around for a while in this forum and have played most of the recent noble's club games. I usually am able to beat games on Emperor, but am lost on this one. I have played it a few times and have not managed to move into a good situation. I was hoping to get some useful feedback form some of the more experienced players on this forum. Thanks already in advance for the helpful comments!

    Spoiler :
    Due to my knowledge of the map i settle Moscow one south. That way I keep a city location in the north. I first research Fishing, while I build a warrior in Moscow. Things time out nicely that warrior and fishing finish at the same time. I build a workboat and research BW. When BW is done I have two improved 1 fish and one clam (for one more commerce) and build a worker at size 3.
    I go for sailing and masonry and build/chop/whip a lighthouse and the great lighthouse. Inbetween I whip a couple of settlers and settle the city in the north and one in the south. Next goal is a library in Moscow to run scientists (and later also in the other cities)
    Here's the screenshot (sorry for the german version of the game) at turn 70:
    and the research situation Screen Shot 2019-03-11 at 18.52.58.png

    The question is now what to do. There are basically two options:

    - Stay on three cities, go for monarchy, then go for optics.
    Pros: Reasonably fast optics, large cities with reasonably high research output
    Cons: Only three cities, significant time to necessary to get an empire going on the southern part of the continent beyond the mountain ridge and be competitive with the AIs

    - Go for monarchy and the for optics while expanding and developing in the south
    Pros: get a developed empire by the time you reach optics
    Cons: high maintenance for the cities on the southern part of the continent, low tech rate, significantly behind run-away AIs Mansa and Kyrus

    - Go for Monarchy, Civil Service and then optics while expanding on the southern continent:
    Pros: Leverage the research/production behemoth Moscow, developed empire
    Cons: Even later optics

    I have tried all three approaches and my best so far was to capture shaka, be the largest civ with ~15 cities and an army of infantry/rifles/cannons around 1900. However, further progress seemed difficult due to the significantly advanced Kyrus (with Augustus as vassal) and Mansa.

    I was wondering whether there is some advice from the more advanced players on this forum or whether this map is just crazy hard....

     
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @ontariel

    Spoiler :
    First, not sure how you had knowledge of the fish. (edit: I realize now after reading again that you played more than once so the knowledge was there) The logic to move is good, but in my case I did not and could not assume there was not more land up there. The scout was not well placed. Anyway, I settled in place knowing the clams would be used by another city.

    BW first is the better way to go here. Worker first but delay a turn or two (with warrior) to time arrival of worker 1t before BW completes. Continue warrior and chop workboats.

    GLH definitely but I think your problem here was slow expansion. With GLH you should be expanding fast. Send that scout on galley saw to check spots. I got Mids too. Monarchy ignored.

    I would ignore CS shooting to bulb up to Astro. Far more important on this map. I played this on IMM and the AIs were hella backwards.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  8. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    @elementoffear

    Spoiler :
    Come on wtf is this start.:crazyeye: No commerce , russia does not start with fishing or agriculture. When you SiP cuz there is no real reason to move, you ruin a fish to the north. Wtf you even do here? BW first and chop out workboats? Fishing first then BW? These damn fish starts are always so tricky.

    Then on turn 2 you see that your blocked by a hillchain and are stuck with max 3 cities for a while. I really hope you can settle some cities behind the hills. Pretty uncomfortable starting position at least for my taste.
     
  9. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    @ontariel

    i am just a couple of turns into this map. No huts / no events. Deity Difficulty (maybe the map is a bit too hard for my deity skills though^^). Here is my advice. Be careful long advice. Hope it somehow makes sense:D

    Spoiler :
    If you settle in place , i am pretty sure you can reach another island to the northwest via culture. There are ocean tiles with 1 :food: and 1:commerce:.
    So there should be coastal tiles of another island to the northwest which could be settled. Pretty sure best attempt would be to secure GLH and on your difficulty level even the pyramids.

    Then expand to the south via galleys. Another neat trick would be to make 2 settlers and ship them over to the islands to the northwest. Create a colony to unlock foreign traderoutes and let them research stuff for you. Only assuming there is another continent to the northwest ofc.

    Your 2nd approach would be best. Go for GLH, then go for monarchy + CoL while expanding to the south. Afterwards i recommend rather to go for optics, if the map is a continent map. Get circumnavigation bonus, get some libraries up and run your capital as a great person farm (philosophical trait helps). Avoid Civil Service and also avoid meditation. Use 2 great scientists for an astronomy bulb. No need for a CS since our capital will be low on commerce and hammers so the bureaucracy bonus will not be so huge. If you somehow manage to grab the mids, then you can maybe skip monarchy. Will be hard though cuz no stone, no industrious leader and forests will be chopped into GLH. Not sure how fast wonders go on emperor though, could definetly be possible.

    Another approach would be the oracle instead of the Great Lighthouse. Just an idea, not sure if it would be a better play than GLH, which is always very powerful on coastal starts. Make use of the big food surplus in capital to generate as many GPP:gp: as possible.

    BW - fishing - mysticism - poly - PH (chop out the oracle and work mines) - writing then oracle CoL. Settle some 3 cities, try to grab 2-3 more nice cities to the south. Then switch to Caste system and use your high food capital and philopshocial trait to bulb your way to astronomy. You have to avoid meditation though or your bulb path will be screwed (philosophy instead of optics and astronomy). You can easily get out 3 great scientists, maybe even 4 with so much food in capital.

    1st GS: bulb optics

    2nd & 3th GS: bulb astronomy

    My approach would be : oracle CoL, chop whip library in capital, get a GS, use him for golden age when your cap has a decent size (maybe size 10-12) thx to monarchy and you have like 5 or 6 in total and some to the south. Use GS for golden agen and switch into caste system, run as many scientists as possible in capital, maybe even starve down on the last turns of the GA, then bulb optics and astronomy. Intercontentinental traderoutes will make up for the lack of land to cottage.

    Go for the long run and outtech the A.I. with your advantage to canons and maceman, you can bulb chemistry with some GS you get later. Should lead to a decent steel date. You might try to trade for engineering, currency and theology. Since you are the founder of confucianism you can then switch to theocracy and get double promoted units. CR 2 canons and CR 2 maceman are quite strong. Use your late Great Persons for either the chemistry bulb or get a Great merchant for a mission and upgrade trebuchets to canons, so you can attack the turn you get steel.

    Attack them with canons, maceman and some pikes/muscetman for stack defense . Astronomy will be mandatory anyway since you need galleons to ship your troops.
    A.I. should not have rifling yet, and CR 2 canons can even deal with rifleman. All other units like longbowmen and musketman will be crushed completely.





    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  10. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    @ontariel

    Spoiler :
    Oh. i just discovered the lovely 1 tile mountain island. So i guess we can forget about settling to the northwest :lol: bad map just got even worse.
     
  11. elementoffear

    elementoffear Chieftain

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    @Olafeson , you have become too spoiled my friend :) I actually like this map... keep going
     
  12. ArchGhost

    ArchGhost Chieftain

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    Took a hiatus from NC for a bit, think I'll try this one though.
    Seems reasonable enough. EDIT: had my thoughts mixed up

    Spoiler :
    Still, with the map setup (yes I peeked the OP spoiler and I'm a little ashamed now) a ton of food in one city or lots of food in just a few might be very helpful for getting where we need to go quickly. With that in mind, I might actually be inclined to move north as an option, depending on what the scout reveals to the south. This way the cap has 2 guaranteed 5f tiles and the second city plotted 1E of clam will get two seafoods with a border pop even if there's nothing else down in that western (corner?).

    I know I'm a sucker for splitting my starting position if it has too much food, but since it's known we CAN settle 1 SE of the clam, I'd rather try to get it access to one of those fish too. Again, what the scout says about the area could change that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  13. ontariel

    ontariel Chieftain

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    First of all I want to thank all of you for you advice.

    Spoiler :

    I have now tried a few of the things and the key here seems to be to either get the pyramids or go for monarchy, expand more quickly and use bulbing strategies to get to optics/astronomy.
    I admit, I had never had an in depth look into the bulbing strategies and had always just clicked the button when something nice popped up. I guess now is the time to learn!

    Here are the problems I ran into:

    Great people:
    If I go for the GLH the first person I get is a great merchant. I use that one to get metal casting. It's somewhat on the way to optics and helps out with allowing to build forges.
    That's where the trouble starts: I am not sure what to tech and not to tech:
    I could skip agriculture, but it would waste the two corns in my starting area. Same goes for animal husbandry, which is needed for the stone city (see below)
    Additionally I checked the bulbing tree for GSs and found that both Alpha and Math are above Optics and Astronomy (suggested to bulb by olefson). Do you research those two first? If not, how do you generate enough research, if you can't build it without Alpha? How important is code of laws? I have played a few turns now, but am absolutely unsure what to prioritize in research, since it's so tough to get a proper research rate going.

    Expansion:
    I can get a few cities in the south, and two cities in the northern part are probably a must, one on the floodplains (cottages and copper) and the other one with stone. I checked and even though they are rather far from the capitol, they make more money than they cost due to the GLH. That's when things get tricky. There is a gold city in the east with a fish. It is slightly more expensive than the immediate benefit, but wins as soon as the gold and fish go online. I assume it's a settle also with the happiness boost.
    But what about the city with the fur in the south. It's far away from the capitol, but gives fur (for happy cap) and has a fish. What about the flood plains area? I could fit two more cities (including the barbarian city) in there, but will they be worth it before astronomy?

    A few pics from the southern continent, where I tried to only go for two cities in the north.
    Screen Shot 2019-03-13 at 21.01.09.png
    Screen Shot 2019-03-13 at 21.01.18.png

    Somehow this situation goes beyond my 'beat emperor on a good day' skills...

    @oalfeson: I will try your oracle CoL soon, but I feel sorting these other issues out first is also relevant for the strategy you suggest...


    I am looking forward to the experiene
     
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  14. Powerfaker

    Powerfaker Chieftain

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    @ontariel
    I'm at 100AD, 6 turns behind your date. Take a look at the file for comparison (still have to work on how to generate pics, people mostly work with ... Imgur.....?)

    Here's what I did
    Spoiler :

    Opening:
    Fishing-Agri-BW.
    Meanwhile worker till Fishing, => workboat, => finish worker => 2nd workboat.
    Fish hooked up T16, Corn hooked up T26. It's slightly slower than warrior+workboats, but at least a worker is squeezed out early.
    Produced a settler at size 4 with a 2pop whip and max overflow. Combined with a small chop of the StPetersburg tile (10h) and all the food that is put in on the whip turn (10F) this resulted in a very helpful 49 failgold of Stonehenge a couple turns later.

    The only solution to get a decent tech rate here seems to be running scientists asap. To combine that with the zero happiness problem, decided to go for Priesthood which gives access to:
    Writing (Library fueled scientists)
    Monarchy (HR civic)
    Code of Laws (Caste civic)
    Oracle (to get either Mon or CoL)
    We are talking 1400BC already when I finished Oracle together with writing as only 7th tech (!!). Took Mon because I planned to get more Failgold on Artemis through whips, so caste less needed than HR. Extra warriors now helped me to run scientists and develop some cottages all together.

    Managed to get 200 failgold. Couldn't prevent getting a prophet from Oracle which I settled. This may appear weak, but is pretty helpful when your economy is still weak. (compair 25/-5 gpt with GP vs 20/-10 gpt without GP at 0%/100% science slider => GP yields +25% higher tech rate)
    Currently finished Alpha-Math-Calender, working on Currency, while creating the time to produce enough GS for bulbing. Intention is to get 4 to bulb Mach-Opt-Astro twice (Mach requires Aest)


    Seems like you are ahead of me with expansion to the south, which is a good thing with GLH. I'm not in a hurry myself, but as long as you keep raising pop in your cities to the limit and use them to nibble some extra commerce even the fur city will pay back itself. Can't see where you stand on tech and GP though.

    To bulb optics you will need alphabet and math first. Those are much cheaper and better not bulbed. Note that Calender is required for Astro (not bulb reasons, just a prereq). It's possible you can trade for that when you meet AI's with your caravels, so maybe self teching that is less optimal.
     

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  15. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Of course, but i need to finish my old game first, will take me maybe 2 days more.
     
  16. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Deity No Huts no Events / Turn 50
    Welp i guess i am in deep troubles :cry: Map is quite tough.

    Spoiler :
    Turn 50 there goes the GLH, just managed to get 1 chop into it. And i beelined it. Guess this map will be a nailbiter now.
    Guess i have to rely on some cottages and rexing to the south now. At least i am safe from barbs :undecide:. No way i could have beaten the A.I. to a turn 50 GLH. Guess some industrious leader in the game. Map got from hard difficulty to absolutely nightmare now.

    lighthouse.jpg

    empire.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019 at 7:30 PM
  17. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Turn 113 Deity / No Huts / No Events

    This map will be hard to win i guess. I am pretty sure i am miles behind in tech, sloppy play and some bad luck on the barb fights really set me behind. Also i did miss the GLH which was a major setback.

    Spoiler :

    Turns out there is no one to the south, i was expecting to meet someone. It is hard to judge my situation, but i am in a pretty bad spot right now, barely making any gold
    at 0%:science: reserch slider. I decided to not go for monarchy this time, which left me without any happiness resource for 110 turns. Just yet found and hooked up a gold. Pretty sloppy play, should have focused on getting more GPP:gp:. Thus far only 1 GS which i settled in Argonauth, the city i will move my palace to and build an academy there too with my 2nd GS which will come out soon. This was a tough decision, i wanted to settle it in capital for the extra boost immdiately but decided to go for the long run.

    Move capital, ship over the GS to new capital and settle them and make an academy with the 2nd.

    Until i reach optics, long way i will surely have the time to get 2 more GS with the help of Peters philosophical trait. Missing out on the GLH did really hurt. Economy is tanking, need to reach calendar - currency - CoL somehow. Calendar first for the extra happy resources and some nice :commerce: from dye and spices.

    Did not help at all that Argonauth got captured and razed by 3 barb archers. Was feeling brave and decided to expand there with only 2 warriors and my scout. Got punished immidiately. But i wanted to get an edge and tried it without archery. 6 cities now. Pumped out a small stack of axes to get the barb city Kasache. Lots of FP and some grown cottages there + another worker. I think you pay a bit more maintenance with 7 cities but the extra grown cottages should be worth the hit. Maybe a bit overkill to go in with 9 axes but i want to get it for sure.

    Tbh even though the land in the south is not too bad, it is still a pretty hard map for deity isolation. No cottage capital, lack of happyness resources. Very tricky to settle beyond 2 cities. Also a lot of fighting was going on on the other continent. Maybe i find myself a 15 cities A.I . + 1 or 2 vassals when i finally make contact. I was able to always get to optics/ astronomy first in my recent isolation games. Not so sure about this one though. I think this time an A.I caravel could find me first.

    I really need currency for extra commerce aswell as CoL to get up some courthouses. Pretty sure this game will go very long and i have to attack a very advanced A.I. to stop their spaceship. Usually thats when i lose most a deity game. I will see.

    NC 204 a.jpg
    Nc 204 b.jpg

    Nc 204 tech.jpg
     
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  18. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    Immortal No huts/ No events
    Space Victory
    (but poor score)

    Long-time lurker, trying for peaceful victory

    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Started with north three cities and built GLH

    Technology: Agg/Fish/Sail/Mason/Bronze/Wheel/Pott/Write/Myst/Poly/Priest/CodeLaw/AnimalHusb
    Bulbed: Metal Cast with GLH merchant (luv Philosophical)

    Then expanded south but with really late Astro

    Cyress was way ahead in tech, so eventually bribed Alex on him and Shaka piled in
    Managed to control UN right up to the end when Mansa finally vassaled Shaka
    (oh how I hate emancipation)

    Beelined Superconductors for Labs UB and eventually peaceful space




    Thanks for the game (and interesting start)
     

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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019 at 1:45 PM
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  19. elementoffear

    elementoffear Chieftain

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    @Excal :
    Spoiler :
    I was secretly hoping this map would lead to some peaceful strategies, great to hear you made it :)
     
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  20. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Turn 190 Deity No Huts no Events

    Looks pretty dire, i am quite behind in tech, the only person who could have traded with me decided to attack me. Just a minor inconvience though.

    Spoiler :
    As expected from a naval invasion it was pathetic, just 2 galleons with knights and and catapults. He took one city which i took back 2 turns later. Alexander did attack me and i plan to take revenge on him as soon as i have canons/ grenadiers or rifleman. But since he got Military science already there is no real benefit in teching to rifling. He is quite small and i should be able to take him out.

    Did set up a nice cottage spot (Argonauth), moved the palace there, settled 1 GS and used another one for an academy. Next turn i will have 6 universities and instantly finish Oxford with a Great Engineer. Next GP will come in 3 turns already and can be used to start a golden age to finally reach steel and Military science.

    Another option would be to build oxford with stone in a golden age. Use the Great engineer next turn to start GA, then get 2 more GP and make a 2nd golden age. Not surr what is the better play tbh. I am really in for the long run. Judaism in 2 cities which are good to generate GPP, guess i will switch to pacifism for that. Especially since old capital has judaism.

    Tech wise i am behind but not too far, i hope i can catch up with Oxford and the GA. Although many enemy A.I. will reach rifling and maybe even infantry when i attack.
    But i doubt that Alexander will. He will be my first target, then i will see how i approach. I doubt that i can win space with my land, especially since mansa musa has 12 cities and will go for space before me.

    Really unfortunate that alex attacked me though. I could have gotten in some much needed trades. Like education for printing press or nationalism to draft later.

    What do you guys think? Use Great engineer to finish oxford in 1 turn, wait 3 turns and start GA with next GP.(Minas Tirith)
    Or use great engineer for GA and build Oxford with stone during a GA? Would make a 2nd GA a lot easier, maybe even a 3th.

    Also not sure if i should attack with canons/rifles or delay my attack and wait for smth like infantry/canons or rifles/ artillery maybe even infantry/artillery. Though that would be really late.
    Personally i think an attack with rifleman/artillery sounds quite strong on paper.

    empire 1.jpg

    Empire 2.jpg

    capital.jpg

    tech.jpg
     

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