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Noble's Club 208: De Gaulle of France

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Couldn't help myself, played on this approach to T90 (an extra turn compared to the T89 we used past), because I could not build the academy until T90.)
    I think I learnt some lessons that I want to share.
    Spoiler :



    142 BPT is way better than my previous try, 4 cities running 2 rep-scientists is really nice.
    GLIB is already done and national epic is well underway.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG


    Some differances:
    1.) I didn't pay overly much attention to failgold, just barely enough to keep techrate up. (ToAR went, which was the most convenient one in previous tries).
    2.) Fourth city down by the river, much better than west of capital as it could borrow the sheep.
    3.) First GPerson from a city other than capital, 100% chance of scientists, and the GPP don't get locked in. (Capital takes of after national epic + GLib, so basically no other city has any use for it's GPP after that.
    4.) Complete neglect of cottages, I start to think rep scientists win so decisively that they are basically just a distraction. (Now for example, a city 3E1S of capital is very much thinkable, and it could whip or build a library too in a timely manner.

    Probably the location of Tours is suboptimal, the city 3E1S of capital would probably have been better.
    Curious to play out this until optics now.

     
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  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    So maybe there is some truth in these conventional wisdoms:
    • if you go for Mids, build farms
    • don't grow past :health:-cap
    ;)
     
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  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I do think so. Regarding health-cap, probably better to split up in more cities.
    (If there was an abundance of food, then going into unhealth might be less of a issue, but here it feels like every food counts.

    But how on the earth to remember all good ideas from the start?
    It's quite frustrating to compare my first attempt to the third one. :)
     
  4. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Not sure, imo a big cap with cottages would be better.
    Academy boosts them quiet a bit soon, and has more potential with Bur. later.
    Also why not grow past health cap there, does not hurt and will be fixed later easily :)
     
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Maybe indeed just playing until optics can be misleading. Past the first few GPs they become expensive and having at least some matured cottages around capital would be awesome.
     
  6. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Hi everyone. I've been away from civ for the past few months because of life and stuff (if anyone wants to ask, I'd be happy to talk more in private messages). I'm celebrating prematurely because finals aren't done yet, but the hardest part of the work is behind me.

    But regardless...enjoy probably the most detailed writeup I've ever done!

    THE BEGINNING:

    Spoiler :


    Once I saw the latest @Lain video and saw that, not only were we stuck with just about the tiniest island I've seen in any iso game ever, and also DEPRIVED OF FISH on that island (3 food resources total does not make for a good time, growth or health-wise), I knew I had to return, and win this tough matchup in the name of the best food resource in the game (I'm not even kidding now, I think I like coastal fish legitimately more than wet corn depending on the leader/start).

    My strategy going in, knowing what I know from seeing the island in a video, was a twist on the standard iso optics -> astro bulb isolation play. Land was limited, and so was food and health, but stone + marble was a wonderspammer's dream come true. So I decided to go for a double wonder strat (could've tried for 3 but didn't want to get greedy, and also reasons explained later). Mids, ofc, but also oracling metal casting. The first is pretty self-explanatory, but my reasoning for the second choice was that sinking 250 beakers for techs you'll need later anyways, and what was effectively 2 forest chops, for a 750-beaker tech that's useful immediately (ind forges are da bomb) AND 2 free border pops (to reach the whale without another city) was more than worth it, especially seeing as how we can settle the marble for easy access.

    Tech order was a bit weird. This is somewhat cheaty but I supposed from the size of the island that more than 1 warrior was not needed for fogbusting (sure, ONE tile was left at risk, but I was wiling to take that chance). So that means that any unnecessary units should not be built to prevent cost - hence, fishing first to build WB immediately after worker. Then came mining, and BW, for the gold mine and chops. After that was animal husbandry, and then pottery, and only then masonry. "Doesn't that leave a lot of idle worker turns though?" Not really - 10 were spent roading to gold and 2nd city spot and sheep, something that gives much-needed early commerce and health (which is normally not a major problem, but is on this map!). 2 chops, IIRC, was towards a settler. And I never farmed the FPs, because I didn't think spending 7 worker turns is worth 10-20 food (about how long I expected the farms to be up before I replaced them with cottages, the health situation preventing that much food from being useful for a long while). After that it was thru meditation to priesthood.

    In the second city I immediately started building a settler for the marble city, working only the gold. The cap grew, and built granary for max overflow into mids eventually, which I worked on for quite a bit. I think I whipped a worker sometime in the capital for more overflow, always a good thing when building wonders. Anyways - I completed Oramids on the same turn, t64 or 1440BC (cutting it close for Oracle, it goes quite soon on deity). In fact one of the reasons I went meditation was because I was afraid even 2 more turns would lose me that wonder (failgold is nice but I didn't come all the way to priesthood for 150g, I came there for free MC) - a possible mistake that would later cost me a bit as I had to trade for polytheism for the literature line.

    Picture of t64 Oramids:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20062).png


    The way I reached optics was making my capital basically a research megacity while my other 2 cities served as scientist feeds (decent ones, too - lack of food hurts less when the health situation prevents growing past size ~5-6 regardless). That meant at once cottaging everything (windmills on hills later) AND running 2 scientists all the time. In a high-risk play I generated a GS from my Oracle city for about 50% odds; fortunately, that worked out. My path to optics was first through compass, so I could get the +1 health from a harbor quickly (pitiful, I know, but considering the attractiveness but health cost of forges and the fact we literally have 2 health resources, any bit helps). Once I met people I made the standard trades, though I self-teched alpha and math.

    Now a question you might ask could be - why not build the great lighthouse? Well, first of all, it's honestly not that great, at least for a while. 3-4 cities means you really get 4-8 extra commerce total per turn, pre-astro. Even after, you don't know which civs are gonna completely screw you over by going into mercantilism. Secondly, the timeframe for building it coincides directly with building Oramids. I'd rather have those 2 wonders locked down than cramming a third in there. Finally - lighthouses, what are they good for? Absolutely nothing, apparently, because we have a grand total of 1 workable seafood resource here (and whales don't count, at least not for a loooong time). So that would've been a waste of a build early on.

    Picture of t107 optics:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20063).png



    MEETING OUR RIVALS:

    Spoiler :


    My gambit of somehow trading for aesthetics didn't pan out; Wang was stingy with it. BUT I did manage to build GLib and National Epic afterwards, because I saved forests. With 3-4 quick chops (not sure the exact number), and industrious as well as having marble, the GLib was mine about only 5 turns after getting literature, and I didn't work a single mine to build it (riverside windmills are like slightly better cottages if you think about it). Speaking of saving forests, I opted to NOT chop everything early on, instead saving forests on (non-riverside cottageable) tiles, especially near the cap, and at least 2 per city BFC (I roaded to and on them). This had 2 advantages: 1) the aforementioned ability to beeline optics and still make a viable GLib play, an absolute must-have on this map considering mids + marble, by rapidly getting out a wonder with pre-chopped forests, and 2) giving some health to a city, any bit of which makes a difference on a sorry start like this. It was kinda humiliating to have to rely on that to NOT starve, but, well, you gotta do what you gotta do.

    Some smart trading culminated in 100AD astro - astonishingly fast for just 4 cities (the 4th was a whale one south, I figured 1 whale + 1 grass farm provides about as much food as dry rice, pathetic but it'll do for whipping purposes). To make this better, I didn't even have to give optics to anyone yet, and it was at this period in time that I slowly began to realize something was off about this game. Not, like, a bug or anything, but in my playthrough...the AIs teched about as slow as they would've if it was immortal difficulty, maybe even slower. It was a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one - I needed all the breaks I could get if I was to get by with somehow doing an intercontinental attack with just 4 cities. After examining things for a bit, I realized that 3 factors were the case. First, none of the AIs in this game got much land, with the extreme example being poor 4-city Pericles, and when most AIs are stuck with 6 cities or less they tend to stagnate, fortunately (unless we have a supertecher like Mansa who pulls an entire era out of his a**). Second, the AIs here were some of the worst techers, period. You have Shaka and Stalin, psycho warmongers who don't trade at cautious and spam units while attacking anyone they could get their hands on. Then you have Pericles, decent - but with 4 cities you can only do so much. Mao is OK but definally subpar and had not really good city placement (and just 9). Wang, perhaps the best techer, still only had 6 cities and really nobody to trade with. Finally, the diplo was super messed up. Extremely different peaceweights + religions and constant attacks made it so that at one point virtually everyone in the game was at war. That's gotta do a number on relations and tech trading.

    Picture of t119 astro:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20065).png


    Some stroke of extreme luck (that Lain should definitely not read and so should you if you haven't explored a lot):

    I found an island to the east of me that I promptly planted 2 cities on. As well as giving me crab and of course the elusive FISH that I so desperately needed (for health reasons), I also found an extra source of iron and wine, both of which some AIs were actually missing - meaning more health trades. And of course both cities had far more food than my home continent cities right off the bat, meaning galleon whips galore and I could focus on whipping units in my mainland, later on.


    MISSION IMPOSSIBLE:

    Spoiler :


    It was at this time that an absolutely crazy idea began to form in my head. I wanted my cake and I wanted to eat it too. What if, after building an academy and doublebulbing astro, I somehow managed to lib steel? Sounds crazy, I know. But hear me out on this. At this point, a bit after astro, nobody had paper yet (and it was 300-400s AD, that's how slow the AIs were) except for Stalin, who got it through theology and refused to give it to anyone. The most likely lib threats were constrained by either size (again, 4 city Pericles, I think he mistook this round for Civ V) or had a higher gold than science flavor and therefore were far more likely to get economics than lib, in the case of Wang. So I took a shot, putting a bulb into edu, getting into gunpowder that way, trading for PP and nationalism in the meantime. And I somehow hit it: libbing steel 1020 AD in an isolation game, with an island having space for only 4 cities. My capital was an absolute science machine at this time, with 6 specialists (I've never been so happy for the free artist from a salon) giving a ridiculous amount of GPP and rep beakers.

    Picture of t162 steel and the capital:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20067).png
    Screenshot (20068).png


    I ran out of money, though, and only managed to limp my way to rifling around 20 turns later. Put 2 bulbs into scimeth because I knew once I started pumping out units and taking faraway intercontinental cities the only way I could ever hope to stay afloat, much less tech again, was communism. In the meantime, I started a GA, switched to police state, and started spamming cannons (with some musketeers, though I preferred to get rifles directly if possible). At last the invasion fleet was assembled. Despite the breaks I've caught, time was running out to attack. In a rifles vs rifles fight I would lose, hard, because 4 cities and literally 3 food sources between them (yes, I had the other continent, but that was too far for reinforcements to arrive on time) couldn't possibly hope to outproduce anyone. The one saving grace was, again, the turtle tech pace combined with the constant warring. SB decided he hated Shaka so much he wanted to discard all reason and attack Wang, and Mao decided to dogpile. Wang blew his now-waning tech lead to bribe Stalin into the war, who was regardless hopelessly behind and did nothing except trade units. Almost nobody had steel or even RP yet. Mao's stack marched off to faraway Korea, and it was then that I decided to strike.

    Picture of t188, when the action starts, and my stack:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20069).png


    Mao proved REALLY stubborn and hard to crack. I feared his cuirs because though rifles were a darn good counter, if he had a lot he could very easily swamp me. Or not even a lot, just a dozen pinch ones, something the AI wouldn't have trouble putting together at all. Fortunately, his army marched all the way up to Korea to take a city and were promptly trapped by the culture (or at least refused to move), meanwhile being picked off by Korean grens and cuirs themselves. And his pitiful defenses fell easily to a hail of cannonfire. Worryingly enough, he refused to cap until I had smashed the rest of his army, because of dumb vassal mechanics, even when I was tearing up his countryside and taking cities left and right.

    Something funny - I discovered an interesting way to bait frigates! If you have circumnavigation galleons, you can easily move them 5 tiles away from a stack of enemy frigates. They'll probably follow you but won't be able to catch you because you're ever so slightly faster. Move JUST out of range again (this time not using all your moves), and continue until you've lead them around the world a couple times instead of pillaging your seafood or, worse, sinking your reinforcements. It's hilarious to see when it happens, and you can almost hear the music:

    At long last Mao capped, but not before I got my army out of position and wasted wayyy too much time on him. My tech lead was dwindling, and my economy was in shambles. Good news: Mao had communism, so I traded for it, and finally started trudging my way towards AL. Stalin somehow got ahold of rifling (the only other person to do so) but was still hopelessly behind. Pericles was getting close, and Wang looked like he could get it any second. So I chose the softer and juicier tactic and attacked Pericles. Using a unit teleportation trick, I only had to move my armies halfway across his territory before DOWing and striking at Athens and Sparta. Against rifles + cannons, phalanxes and medieval units died in droves. It was no contest. After securing the 2 cities I wanted I readily accepted his cap.

    Now I turned my attention to Wang, who had grens but was slowing down in tech. Again...6 cities, can only do so much with them. Unless, of course, you're FISH MAN. But I had more than 6 cities at this point, and stopped the army production, my stack being about 40-50 units large. Keeping track of his army with a handy 2-move musketeer (don't ever say those are useless again!) I eventually struck when I was in a position to move all my stack on a hill, 4 tiles from his main stack. He responded much dumber than I predicted, separating his hwachas from his grens and moving the former to open ground where I easily ate them up with my musketeers. Then, I promoted some rifles pinch/guerilla, and waited. And he smashed a dozen grens against my army, killing only one rifle. After that, he wisely capitulated.

    Picture of the fight, followed immediately by the 3rd capitulation:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20070).png


    Turns out he was researching biology the whole time. Almost smart, except he never would've used a monopoly tech like that as tradebait. In a similar vein, SB actually got steel a bit after me (I think) but then decided to blow it by attacking not the person who wants to completely strangle him but his otherwise harmless neighbor, and then throwing his entire siege stack before he could upgrade them. It was...a nice try at a cannon breakout, I guess? But next time, you should leave it to the humans (aaaand I know I'm gonna be first to go when the AI revolution comes around).


    THE ENDGAME:

    Spoiler :


    From then on, the game was essentially won. I had enough land and vassals to out-tech and outproduce anyone left. Got AL from Pericles and self-teched artillery.

    This was the Shaka-killing stack:

    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20072).png


    He refused to cap so I just took all his mainland cities and left it there. The fight was MUCH easier than expected, probably a combination of not facing anything tougher than machine guns and him having exhausted his forces tussling with SB for the past couple hundred years. Might've made things slightly harder if he got infantry to go with his artillery, but as it stands, somehow combustion has a higher or greater military flavor than AL. So build destroyers to your heart's content, I guess? Thanks for all the free cities, BTW.

    When SB came in with his stack right after I stole a city capture, I backstabbed, and completely steamrolled. He, too, had decided to beeline combustion instead of...corporation? Rifling? Military science? Uhh, anything useful at all?

    Never thought I would get to see artillery + infantry vs literally swords on deity, but here you go:

    Spoiler :




    From then on it was an easy cap of Stalin, who funny enough managed to take one of Mao's cities. In hindsight I think his cossacks were trying to run away from the menacing superstack of combat 3 infantry and artillery 4x the size of anything he could muster. And not only did I not build a single factory (too lazy to switch from build wealth at that stage, I guess), but also I didn't even get to use tanks, or cap Shaka. Not that he's any real threat now after being relegated to literally 2 islands.

    The winning screenshot:

    Spoiler :




    And, of course, to compensate for the fact that there was NO FISH in the starting continent, I built 2 cities to claim 2 fish in Mao's former territory. The 2 fish that we all deserved, but didn't get. And the 2 fish that Mao should've claimed to work, if he had half a brain:

    Spoiler :




    The main takeaway here I guess is that to get to where you need in the midgame tech situation, AND to whip an army, requires surprisingly little in the way of land, and with even bad land it's how you use it that matters. I personally am more of a fan of farmspam-only-after-CS, and keeping improvements to cottages on riverside tiles mostly. Matured towns do payoff big-time in the race to lib (or steel, or rifling, or whatever) where it's truly do-or-die. I was very fortunate this game to have high-risk high-reward plans pay off almost every time (except for the aesth trade and some other things). I'm still a bit rusty but I still very much enjoy this game even after many months away. And even though I may not be able to play as frequently as I used to, or post here, deity games and especially isolation still remain rewarding experiences.

    PS: I named the leader after a famous French figure but the civ adjective/name was an overused joke about French pastries. Turns out the other continent does look a little like a croissant. A very lucky and fitting denomination, I would say.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 4:58 AM
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Nice game @Fish Man , and welcome back. :)

    Me, I'm basically stuck in a loop, trying out a bunch of things in the early game... A really cool map to sandbox different unorthodox things.
    Spoiler :

    Latest try, I finished Parthenon, this wonder is acually rather cheap, and if most of the research will come from rep-scientists it makes alot of sense to go for it I think.
    I have basically seen this as only a failgold sink for an eternity, but in certain cases it does have some merit!

    Later on I was abit lucky with GPeople (Scientist first from Lyons, then a GEng which bulbed machinery, then two scientists.)
    If you get lucky that way you can do this:
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
     
  8. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Parthenon...

    Spoiler :
    Worth completing or better for a bunch of fail gold?

    Seems stronger than usual in this situation with the TGL and rep scientists.
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Izuul
    Spoiler :
    I kind of think that it is worth finishing. I didn't think of it at first though, but yes I do think that the situation calls for it.
    Depends on how you plan to play the rest of the game too though.
    I have farmed everything so it makes more sense then as I'll run more specialists. If cottages it's less certain.
     
  10. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    1906AD Culture Victory (just for something other than cannons :mischief: )

    Spoiler :


    certainly not optimal to try this on a small island where you have to wait a long time for religion to spread to you :(

    and some gunboat (frigate) diplomacy (bribes) required :lol:

    but despite missing some wonders by a couple of turns :mad: did manage to get Sistene Chapel and Statute of Liberty built :)


    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG


    Thanks for the game and looking forward to learning from other posts on how to beeline cannons on this type of map
     

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  11. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    I just watched @Lain 's episode 4 recently and saw a bunch of your early-game posts. Though my minimalist approach certainly worked, I must say that both of you have done a far better job of making use of this fishless land better than I did. Lain reached astro 4 turns before me even though he put a 700-beaker detour into literature, and even though he skipped lib he declared the turn I got rifles. You not only got BCs astro with a bit of luck but also had met everyone 4 turns after the date I got optics. This puts a fresh view on how I see things, and made me rethink some aspects of isolation maps. I never put a single farm before civil service because I thought the health cap was just too low to merit any attempt at growth beyond size 5-8 in the first 100 or so turns of the game. And also, sticking to the "city must have food" rule", never placed more than 3 cities until after optics. But Lain did both, and used a FP farm to act as a pseudo-dry wheat tile of sorts to feed a 4th city - which paid off instantly because of astro trade routes. It never occurred to me to do that! A lot of unused space on my island even in the late-game, which I just wrote off because of the lack of food resources.

    The one thing that I don't like that Lain did, though, was handing out techs more freely than AI friendly Mansa. A moment that almost physically hurt was giving away astro for CS (throwing 2000 beakers' worth of potential trades away!). As well as giving the AI more things to trade and increased commerce, giving out big stuff like that increases the global tech pace by a lot - SB might not trade that away for a while but he'll do so the second someone else gets it, and in the meantime that's saving him 10-20 turns of teching and putting him that much ahead, making it so that he might get rifles, grens, or infantry when he otherwise wouldn't have. Maybe it was luck, but I think Lain's technological promiscuity contributed greatly to the advanced tech pace in his game comparatively. By the time he was attacking China (and by the time I would've been whipping rifles), in his game several AIs were closing in on AL, while in my game maybe one other AI had RP and another had just finished steel. Despite being faster this might be more of an uphill battle for him than for me, it seems.

    @krikav : the Parthenon is certainly an interesting idea, but in this case even with ind/marble I question its worth. Since we accept that most of our GP will come from one city - half the effect of the national epic, for double the price? Other stuff like harbor for health, or lighthouse might be more worthwhile. So that our citizens don't starve to death from eating rancid ̶f̶̶i̶̶s̶̶h̶ sheep. If I saw correctly the very impressive 142bpt at 625 BC save was without Parthenon, and you seemed to be in a far stronger position than the 100BC astro save. Another miscellaneous thing I learned - I don't want to do it, but sometimes it seems like I've gotta bite the bullet and place cottages on non-riverside tiles. It's barely worth it to even work those in the beginning, and I was lucky enough to have enough of a supercapital to not need them, but next time I might not be so fortunate (nobody has to know about the Qin game that I lost and gave up on most recently because I refused to build a single cottage due to the land being so bad, something that I’m sure was alright at first because lighthouse coast but not so much by the Renaissance era; yes…that semi-iso map with Genghis).

    Why was Tours 1 tile from able to work the whales, though?

    (Speaking of early astro, this came up recently on an already crazy deity HoF-esque space playthrough using an old NC map :crazyeye::
    Spoiler :

    Screenshot (20195).png

    (I could not believe it either - printing press, astro, and almost edu by 300BC! Also 40 cities...just marathon space things, I suppose.)

    )
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 5:08 AM
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  12. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    @Fish Man regarding Parthenon

    Spoiler :

    I think the Parthenon is likely to be completed in another city since the capitol will be working on TGL around the same time. With nothing else worthwhile to put those hammers into, the question really just becomes whether or not the fail gold for research is better than the extra GPP.

    If we assume that the wonder can be completed, we are also assuming that we can get at least very close to 400g from it and possibly more if we can also work on it in other cities before the AI complete it. However, just one extra great scientist is worth 1650+ beakers and could potentially speed up Astro by quite a few turns. Earlier Astro means more commerce from those trade routes. And one other advantage to bulbing vs more money to finance research is that Astro has no pre-reqs and is thus one of the most expensive techs to research in the game. That makes bulbing it even more effective.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019 at 10:11 AM
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    In my game with Parthenon:
    Spoiler :

    It's not really like you can pick and choose to get this, it can go very early or it can be delayed for the forseable future.
    If you do manage to get Parthenon, to get the utility you really need to run alot of specialists in multiple cities, and all need to have some chance of actually finishing their GPeople some time during the game.

    Because of pyramids and early rep (and GLib), I do think it makes sense to run alot of specialists, especially since the health-cap dictates that cities should stay small.
    The capital likely have other tasks to perform too, some time during the game which will give other cities some time to catch up.
    The free artist also benefits ever so slightly.

    Also, there is a period between optics/astro, where you are basically just coasting tech-wise and extra gold in the bank doesn't really do that much for you.

    These things being said, I really don't know if it's best or not.
    Each way, you do have to tailor your play to adapt.
     
  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Spoiler :
    Right. The scenario i was presenting though was assuming that you could finish the wonder and then choosing whether or not it was correct to do so.
     
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  15. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    So I had a bit of an internet outage yesterday and decided to burn some time having a go with this map on Noble/Marathon. Not as a challenge, obviously, but to have some fun :). End result?
    Spoiler :
    Well, given the whole "full map knowledge" and "watched Lain figure the map out" details, pretty similarly to what he did. Founded only few cities early, build Stonehenge, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Oracled Metal Casting, got a ton of failgold from Great Wall and Temple of Artemis, and to actually generate some Great Scientists at decent odds I settled a fourth city south of the Marble to build/chop Great Library/National Epic. First GP was a Great Prophet, but I settled him in the fourth city for extra hammers and money. Actually a very useful GP to get: The +2:hammers: were badly needed in that city, and +5:gold: was a solid third of my entire empire's financial deficit at 100% slider. Would have preferred a Great Engineer of course, but I've had worse Great People (hello 2% GA because I popped borders with a Caste System artist hundreds of years ago :gripe:).

    Also learned something new: Monuments you build manually actually stick around and provide Culture/allow you to build Statue of Zeus even after they obsolete due to Astronomy. No +1 :) from CHA, but the rest remains. Free monuments provided by Stonehenge, however, just completely evaporate into thin air. I couldn't milk SoZ for failgold after getting Astronomy because no city had Monuments anymore :undecide:. Ah, not like there's Ivory on the island anyway :p.

    All of that combined lead to (IIRC) ~turn 300 Optics, and I upgraded/chopped out a Caravel to make contact with the AI continent immediately, since of course I knew where they all were. So how badly do you guys think that a pair of reasonable techers, in different religions they both founded, on the caveman continent, on Noble/Marathon, would be in terms of teching? Three points if you guessed:
    Spoiler :
    Yes, you are seeing that correctly. I traded Aesthetics to Wang Kong for Alphabet, and discovered that 300-odd turns into a Marathon game...
    Mao hasn't teched Writing yet:lmao:

    No, he didn't get stuck spamming Missionaries because he didn't found a Religion. Well, obviously he didn't, he doesn't have Mysticism yet either, so no religion or missionaries for that matter. No, he didn't lose his capitol to a barbarian rush either, you can see his Great Wall peeking out above the tech screen there. He did DoW Pericles at some point, but what kind of millennium-long slog would that need to be to even remotely justify Mao's tech pace? Or his lack thereof. It's not in the screenshot, but I met Shaka like two turns later and he was more advanced than Mao - the guy actually had books! Though he also didn't get into any wars. Yet :ar15:.

    Also just noticed that Pericles can't actually spread the religion he's founded (no Priesthood), but everyone, even Mao, has Iron Working. Why? What is so appealing about Iron Working? I don't recall that continent being 90% Jungle. I don't recall everyone having Praetorians either. Just what are these guys doing? I don't comprehend...
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 9:46 AM
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  16. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,044
    Spoiler :


    Hey, relax, I'm pretty sure Mao knows what he's doing! He's probably going, uh, metal casting to...build the Colossus so he can actually have an economy besides riverless cottages? Yeah no, expecting AIs to have that sort of strategic thinking is already asking too much. It's a sensible thing to do, which means it's...probably not what he's doing :lol:.

    I'll bet that winning on this map won't be much of a challenge, so to spice things up perhaps consider one of these extra challenge conditions?

    1. Domination without siege or mounted - can you plow through these cavemen with nothing but a rifle/infantry horde?

    2. Space before 1800AD (t800-900ish on marathon, I think, right off the top of my head).

    3. Culture win without firing a single shot, as fast as possible.

    Regardless of what you choose, happy hunting (or not...considering how you won't need that tech for pretty much all of this game).

     
  17. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    278
    Gender:
    Male
    Spoiler :
    I had gathered as much as soon as I saw the tech screen, it just still baffles me how poor the AI is. I mean I once had a situation where I managed to fight Archers with Cavalry (well, Cossacks), but that was against Monty who's expansion got interrupted by a three-front war he was stuck in for hundreds of turns without anyone to trade with - can't expect very much from that. Mao here just...I don't even know what to call this. I can't even tell whether he succeeded at his war and got crushed economically by maintenance, or failed and got his core taken out. He's got one of the better city counts on this map, so I'd assume the former, but Noble maintenance isn't that crippling. I had Wang Kong take a city on the other side of the world once (Inland Sea map) and he happily force me to attack him early because he decided to go Gunpowder before Code of Laws. So, obviously, no Courthouse.

    As for challenges, I find it more interesting to pull stunts that are inefficient, (borderline) impossible on higher difficulties, never seen in regular or even irregular gameplay, but doable on lower ones and fun to pull off rather than "conventional" win before X date or don't use X thing challenges. Such as seeing how long you can keep the AIs landlocked by spreading Privateers everywhere (the answer from that Highlands NC game with...Frederick, I believe, that Lain also played: 18th to 19th century AD, thereabouts. The big thing is to double up on Privateers so the AIs don't dare rushing them even with a dozen+ Galleons, so they stick around until the AIs get Chemistry), founding a Corp and seeing if you can utterly bankrupt an AI before they inevitably adopt Mercantilism (send an AI right into STRIKE, and appropriately enough I did that to poor Stalin :D), even trying to found an outright corporate empire and seeing if you can fund a war machine through sheer force of income and rush-buying with Universal Suffrage (UN forces Universal Suffrage on everyone, the warmonger goes "sure, I've no need of Police State" as he buys another round of Tanks :ar15:).

    On this map I'd try founding Creative Constructions and spreading it to every city in the game. It'd be real hard with Stalin and Mao in the game, I'd basically have to build UN and force Enviro on everyone to drag them out of State Property (if they don't just defy the resolution every time), but as you can see they'll give me time to prepare at the very least.

    I'm more feeling a rain of cannonballs today, though :goodjob:. Especially since I really want to pull the trick where you build Courthouses/Forbidden Palace (or I guess Versailles, but I see no need to go Divine Right) on your starting continent, move your actual Palace to a different continent that you colonize/conquer, and not pay Colonial Maintenance on either continent even without State Property/Vassal States enabled since they both have a Palace on them. It works well because your established cities can build/whip the required Courthouses and Forbidden Palace much more easily than newly found colonies can, and moving the Palace is cheaper than building Forbidden Palace anyhow. :king:
     
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  18. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13
    Domination 1844AD (alternative to Culture Victory and better score with cannons)

    Spoiler :


    inspired by @Fish Man post on fast tech Steel, I decided to see what I could do starting back at previous Astro save (instead of going for culture)
    close but no cigar

    Tech Path (after Astro) trade for Mon / Feud / Constr - then Music (GA) / Guild / Gunpow / Eng (bulb) / Chem / Steel
    and traded for CoL / CivSrv and a few others after Eng bulb done
    tech rate was quite good despite only 4 cities

    Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG

    decided to play on with attack initially using cannons/muskets
    target Pericles (tech leader) and took 3 cities and vassal

    then opportunist snipe at Wang ( using extra move muskets :) ) who was at war with Shaka / Stalin
    meanwhile Mao is bribed by Wang against me, but have rifles by this stage and Pericles defends well
    Wang vassals to Shaka so take all of Wangs cities and make ceasefire with Mao while tech Communism

    declare on Mao who is stubborn and vassals to Shaka so take all Maos cities
    continue war with Shaka (who is also fighting Sitting Bull) and then I declare on Stalin cause culture
    dual front war is slow and eventually supply from French homeland stopped by Stalin destroyers
    finally cap Stalin and take all Shaka cities on continent (but he wont cap)
    dialup culture slider and >64% achieved as last cities come out of capture revolt


    Civ4ScreenShot0027.JPG

     

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