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Noble's Club 209 Kublai Khan

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Welcome to NC209!
    Let us work together to achieve the total destruction of our foes, and only THEN betray and rend each other like the rabid dogs we truly are!

    KublaiAvatar.jpg


    Kublai has the traits Agg/Cre and lead the Mongol civilization which start with the wheel and hunting.

    Aggressive is one of my personal favourites as I seldom play a game without alot of barracks, and the free combat1 promotion enables so many fun things. For starters you can get a cheap barracks and warriors ready to be promoted with cover, which can really help out with handling barbarians early on.
    Shock axes come later, and the gift keeps on giving with formation pikes abit later, and even later you can get drafted rifles promoted wth pinch.

    Creative is a superb trait, with alot of culture in every city right away, not only does this give you more freedom with placing cities and have resources in the second ring, but you get a nice edge in any cultural fight for tiles, and basically any tile in your first ring is rock solid for the rest of the game!
    Half-priced libraries is also huge, as one often builds alot of libraries in the early game, and they are very expensive.

    Mongols start with the wheel and hunting, the wheel is always nice and a quite costly tech.
    Hunting can be problematic sometimes, but it does give you early access to AH.

    Sometimes, this combiation of starting techs and traits lend itself to a opening where you go to writing early on through AH, something that gives you a fast great person and a boost in techrate early on.

    Spoiler Starting Screenshot :

    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


    Spoiler Map script :

    Inland sea, which an extra AI added to keep land balance more normal.


    There have been NO edits what so ever in this map, the only thing that is cooked is the selection of the AIs.
    I have tried to generate a map that should be enjoyable on normal difficulties but still a significant challenge for those playing on imm/deity.
    In any case, I suspect that this is not a map to move up a level!
     

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    elementoffear and Olafeson like this.
  2. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Chieftain

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    Hmm...tricky start. Not having the time to really look/think it through I'd guess settle one south, second city 1E of initial scout location? Can share PH Sheep, but the capitol will probably need that itself. Agri -> AH for techs? Will probably want to farm the open grass river anyway and it'd make AH cheaper. Worker can burn time building roads if the timing doesn't work out.
     
  3. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I feel like 1S could be settling on horses/copper/iron.
     
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Generated the map a few days ago to give me at least a chance to forget things, and it seems like I succeded. Only thing I can remember is our closest two neighbours and some other little details. Helps that this map was one in a flood of possible maps I guess. :)

    What do you think about settle 1N?
    +1 green river, +1plains river (which looks kind of suspicious to me) and most importantly, +1floodplain in this capital.
    Plains-hill sheep and plains cow isn't that fun to grow on alone, even at pop3 and onwards we will struggle as if we had a lone dry rice.
    And if I fogspot properly it's just forest all in the original BFC, right?
    Having a farm on a floodplain could really help!

    Scout NW-SW?
     
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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  6. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    Immortal Difficulty (no huts / no events / normal speed)

    Turn 101 350BC
    DoW already :eek:


    Spoiler :


    settled 1SW
    creative = very nice

    Tech Path: AnimalHusb / Mine / Ag / Pott / Write / Bronze / Mason

    Cities: Wheat/Deer, Horse/FP, Cow/Copper/Marble, Sheep/FP, Copper/FP

    Boudica is plotting and my scout shows them heading my way - so emergency axe rush
    Even Gallic Warriors are no match for Agg/Shock axes :thumbsup: and we take cease fire :hug:
    but not before she bribes in Sury :eek: as well

    Meanwhile Shaka has stupidly, expanded aggressively against my border :crazyeye:

    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG


    Thanks for the game :)
     

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  7. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    Turn 165 1050AD
    Spoiler :


    so far have been DoW three times :confused:
    the strangest one was the Inca which came from out of nowhere AFAICT
    none of them have been particularly hard to fend off, but it has slowed me down considerably and left me behind in tech

    new cities: silver/fur for :), gold for :), wheat/silk (barb city) and clam :health:

    current plan is Eng for trebs/pikes, then GunPow - but I really should be further ahead than this, so not confident about my position
    Boudica is moving her army across my territory towards (I assume) Mansa - who is universally hated, so a backstab opportunity is open ;)


    Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG

     

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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Nice that you are having a swing at this map @Excal! I'll join the fun abit later, other games came in the way. :)
    Just from the starting screenshot, where did you settle and what was the reasoning?

    I mentioned earlier that I think 1N has something going for it, but Fippy seems convinced that there is alot to be said about 2SE for the early extra hammer... ;)
     
  9. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    Yep PH was/is tempting, but I wanted to stay on river so 1SW (and I ended up with PH city as well)
    I thought 1N might spoil of the option for additional :commerce: river city
     
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  10. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Well there's a lot that needs to be researched before Pottery and a lot that needs to be done before cottages so the main disadvantage to moving off the river is long-term bureaucracy commerce. In the short-term it's likely stronger to move. A couple of later cities can be settled on the river. If you happen to hit a 3rd resource moving 2SE than it's almost certainly better, right?
     
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  11. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    Turn 196 1350 AD and GG (lost)

    Spoiler :


    meanwhile I get Eng, switch to Vassalage for CR2 trebuchets
    any spare cash goes into upgrading some of my CR2 and CR3 axes to maces
    and a couple of pikes and then knights when guilds are in

    unfortunately when I get to GunPow, Mansa already gets it, so cant get any upgrade cash from him, but do get a little cash from Sury

    Sury declares on Boudica (while the cats away) and in turn Stalin declares on Sury (Boudica bribe I think)
    Sury asks me to join and I am just about ready so agree

    I slam CR2 trebs straight into two of Boudicas cities using two stacks and take both cities, leaving her only 3, but despite then taking out her remaining min-stacks in the field, she stubbornly wont talk, so its onwards to her capital which is by now lightly defended

    meanwhile Mansa caps to Shaka and Shaka begins plotting on his worst enemy (me) - and thats BAD :mad: because I know he has a big stack of cuirassiers

    ... and a couple of turns later here they come :eek:

    Civ4ScreenShot0043.JPG

    I think perhaps a better way to play against 2 warmonger neighbours is better manage the diplo (gift city ??) and/or pick one target, then attack early and take them out
    after being DoW three times I was just too far behind in tech to bribe Shaka onto someone else

    I look forward to seeing how others do it and learning from them :)

    Civ4ScreenShot0044.JPG

     

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  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Yep easy logic, by moving 2se we get an almost new bfc while keeping all resis.
    With forests being visible, we know it's impossible that a move costs us a hidden flatland resource or something valuable on non-forested hills.

    So while it's certainly luck based to find something good and new, it's also anti-luck based to not try ;)
     
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I thought @Fippy was just pulling my leg mentioning 2SE. :)

    I do agree with your logic, it frees up some spots to share the "food" along the river, and it should give a quicker start.
    Will likely continue abit with that Charlemange game, but when I'm back to this I think I'll go with my first thought and go 1N, but it would be very nice if any of you (@Izuul & @Fippy) could play along for a few turns (if you haven't already!) with the 2SE option!
    There is fun and challenges awaiting, I promise! ;)

    @Excal You are right, 1N does shut of the cow/sheep from being used by a second city, and if this would have been corn/pigs or something juicy, making room on the river for at least two cities sharing them would have had high prio, but as it is now, I think a capital with these foods will not be able to spare them. Thats abit why I would be eager to get that FP in the capital too...
     
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  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I hope to. I'm having some health issues at the moment that are preventing me from doing much on the computer.
     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T0-T55 :


    I have already provided some reasoning behind settling 1N. More river green, but mainly we get a floodplain in the capital, in growth-mode this will give us +6 food instead of +4, huge difference.
    Sent scout zooming away to possibly find some other AI. The spot SW of scout looks really nice, but would not be able to settle that until T3 and the current position isn't bad either. Still crossing my fingers for some more resource.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Forested spice and a desert tile. Nothing awesome but not horrid either, 3 food/hammers+ a commerce.
    At the usual time to select starting tech, T5 I'm abit tempted to go Agri->AH, to get the discount (would save about 20-25 beakers) and I would get a +4 food tile to grow quicker on first, but I ended up deciding that it probably can't be justified. Losing too many turns working the 6-yield cow. But I'm not sure!
    No early commerce tiles, so pottery is probably in the cards early, so will have to get agriculture soon anyway.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    Met Boudica and Shaka, as mapmaker I knew that they where our closest neighbours. The spot I marked would be absolutely lovey to get with alot of river, a green cow, floodplains and gold! The silk is every so slightly more valuable than usual, as we already have spices in capital.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    I'm QUITE envious of those who settled 2SE! :D
    You have probably gone agri->AH by now, and will have marble in creative third ring too.
    The deer isn't that good but abit of icing on the cake.
    I'll likely settle here with my second city.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    I'm intending to fight this out with agg-warriors, and there seem to be much more room between the AIs than I remember, so will spamm warriors now to not die.
    Whenever there is alot of overflow, I think it makes sense to catch it with the settler. (At least prior to floodplain being farmed.)
    What I'm trying to do, is to redirect the maximum amount of food into the bar to gain pop to work tiles, and to whip away, and the maximum amount of hammers into settlers/workers. This means I also want to land chops into workers/settlers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Many people have heard of binary research I assume? You run your slider at 0% or 100% to avoid rounding errors.
    Early in the game, 50% is also a somewhat safe spot, here my 12 commerce is split half 6-6 and I don't lose a commerce.
    I'm already paying 1g upkeep because I'm building alot of warriors. I'm sure they will die so I don't have to pay for them soon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


    Trying to fogbust and place the warriors in places where they can pick a fight with wandering archers. Usually I'm bold and promote to woody1 even though it's worse than cover, because woody2 warriors are so nice, and it gives them a fighting chance against possible spears later on too.
    Roading toward city2 now, and it looks like I'll be able to revolt to slavery at the usual time when settler is in transit.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    T42 The wall is built, if it would have been any of my two neighbours I would probably have to go into panic mode. (It wasn't)

    Alot of my units are moving toward the cow/gold site, to fogbust and defend. I saw an opportunity to scout into Boudicas land when I saw surys archer on that hill. Still it seems I'm confused about interturn order, because Surys archer moved away, and I die. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    A wounded archer is moving toward my territory, Shaka and sury has units in the area (and I have a wounded warrior).
    I really want my settler out quickly, so don't want to chop a warrior, so I use my northern warrior as a bait to gain time.
    It dies as the archer got 90% odds.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    T54 I meet Mansa, remember that I added him to the game to make techpace rapid and the game more difficult on deity, and to add a friendly trading partner on other difficulties.
    Worst enemy of Shaka/Boudica, but possibly that will change as Shaka now is hindu.
    The archer seem to have dodged the AIs units and is moving toward my floodplain at 0.2 health, I have to chop a warrior. (I value a farmed floodplain at roughly 30 hammers)
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG


     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T57 situation :


    Warrior kills.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
    In the east, I settle Turfan. 1-2 turns earlier Boudica settled that hill.
    I will have border tensions with her soon, and I have to gift her a city very soon to be somewhat safe.
    With pottery in, and that goldmine, I give myself permission to go on a chopping rampage.
    Will try to reach writing as that adds something usefull for cities to build, but other than that, the name of the game now is to grab as much land as possible, as soon as possible while trying to keep safe from the maniacs.
    If Shaka goes red fist it's archery asap and gather a pile of archers in a city that will be placed SW of the spice (good spot).
    If Boudica goes red fist it's just goodbye to Turfan and to do the same thing in Beshebalik.

    I'm abit confused as I thought I made sure there was horses within our reach, maybe they where closer to shakas place.

    The plan (dream) is to buddy up with Boudica who doesn't plot at pleased, and go kill Shaka, best scenario would be 20 turns after I have bribed him against some AI far away. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
     
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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I played abit more, and got more excitement than I wanted! :D
    Spoiler T58-T70 :


    The turn after my update, Boudica goes red fist...
    I don't go crazy worried, because our borders are too small right now for me to count like a land-target, and Mansa is her worst enemy. Likewise noone of the other AIs is likely to have power enought o deter her from plotting on them.
    Still, having 25% chance or so of her plotting against me is not relaxing in any way!
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    Warrior going back and forth, trying to find clues of a stack of doom forming. Nothing conclusive.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Here I start to worry extremly much. This basically rules out any target to her east. But I feel that if I was the target, I should have had a DOW by now?
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Nothing in her east.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    Settle the gift city, liberate it and get to pleased. Beg for the rest of writing.
    (If noone has alfabet, it can be possible to beg for a resource).
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    The red fist presists. PHEW!
    I was not her target. So almost certainly it's Mansas head she is after.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    Was so worried that I was abit sloppy with micro.
    When a fist/DOW happends so early there isn't really a whole lot you can do. Not against a unit spammer such as these. Settling a "turtleshell" city and load it up with archers is one way, but if I would have had a DoW at T60 or something it would amost certainly have been game over.
    It _might_ be possible to act proactivly by gifting a city, declaring and then capturing that city 1-2 turns later to get war success enough to get some peace treaty going.
    Now with my borders expanded against Boudica, I would be a land target, and much more likely to become her target, which is why I was so eager to get her to pleased right away.

    Shaka has settled toward me, and it would likewise be asking for trouble to now settle on that PH close to him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG


     
  18. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    You can still be her target ~~
    Red fist not disappearing is worse than going away, her units staying near you troublesome.
    Sometimes they change their target after a beg, sometimes not.
    (can i.e. be watched when their stack runs into your borders without aim, while peace treaty is on)
     
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  19. Excal

    Excal Chieftain

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    Did not know that - thanks :)
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Will be exciting!
    Did you try out the opening from 2SE? (Looks like much stronger start now when we know).
     

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