Noble's Club 209 Kublai Khan

[krikav]

I refuse to believe it, this kind lady cannot be my doom!

Spoiler :

"It's dangerous to go alone, take this!"

 

[Izuul]

Yeah if she moves an army into your territory and parks it near the border she will attack the turn the treaty expires. It's a dirty trick too as they can sometimes take that city on the turn they declare depending on culture and what units they have.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T73-T83 :

With what you said, and the fact that it seems to build up ever more units in Camulodunum, and that there is completely empty in her east, I go full panic mode.

I try in vain to again beg 1beaker from her with myst. Have heard that every turn after a beg, they have a chance to forget the last beg, and that 27turns is the "optimum" turn to shoot for, but here I was abit desperate.

The turn after the peace treaty was of she is moving in...

Then DoW. two of those axes in the city are 3xp and thus shock. One more is 1pop whipped. Two fellows couldn't make it in time for the party.

But things went well. 20% fortify, 20% city culture and agg/shock did the trick.
The two latecommers get the honor to mop up the two wounded assulters, so that the ones in the city can build up maximum level of fortify.
No clue how much more she will throw at me, and she means business as she is also going for catapults.

Techrate is rock bottom, and I'm falling behind fast, don't dare to whip everything to the ground now and think I'll divert some production to more settlers/workers again.

Lesson to Boudica: Don't give IW to someone you want to kill.

 

[Fippy]

wow
Krikav must feel like in AI survivor, gifting IW while plotting and then being countered by metal units..
an all-time high funny ~~

Fighting them off is easy with enuf Axes yup, keeping other development going can be a real challenge.
(not playing much myself these days, and if i do with BAT..wish we could get it more used somehow ~~)

 

[Excal]

You can still be her target ~~
Red fist not disappearing is worse than going away, her units staying near you troublesome.
Sometimes they change their target after a beg, sometimes not.
(can i.e. be watched when their stack runs into your borders without aim, while peace treaty is on)

Something similar happened in my game:-

In the mid ADs she started plotting again (and I was fairly certain on me)
I had bulbed Philo to try to get back in the trading game, but I didnt offer it to her
A few turns later she asked for it in tribute and I gave it to her and she immediately stopped plotting (safe for now)
A little while later she went red-fist again (third time), so I shadowed her unit build-up and moved more of my units into my neighbouring border city, but this time when she started to move her army she marched straight through my territory towards the "universally hated" AI

 

[krikav]

@Fippy might happen some day. It only took you 5+ years to make me start playing with blue marble.

@Excal Been a long time since I played a game with this much early action. Have played until T94 now, still alive... Will write up shortly.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T84-T94 :

Her city was abit empty. Getting ~1% odds there so won't even think about trying to take it. But moved what units I had close to it to make her feel that it was in danger. Trying to goad more gallic warriors to die by crossing river.

Sury asks me to stop trading with Mansa, I accept. I have already denied such a requst from Boudica earlier, and I have a feeling they will just continue to ask me, don't really want to trade with everyone worst enemy if I can help it either.
Just one axeman cross the river.

Getting two lvl 4 swords (and a lvl 4 axe too.) options open for either CR3 and to do some counterattack, or to combat 4, getting some really tough defender against catapults.
Her stack is in an ackward position now, and I have to fall back.

She sends in an attackwave.

But she still won't talk.

The next turn, she will talk, but I have nothing to give her. Settler is being whipped in Beshebalik though.

And with New Sarai, I get a peace treaty.
PHEW.
Now when the panic is gone, I do not that there are other AIs plotting too... Not least Shaka. Argh!

Economy is not good. Noone have aestehics yet though thanks heavens.

I have 5 swords too that isn't visible in the list.
Will send a small force to that barb city and see if I can snipe it. It's on a hill so probably can't afford to take it alone.
But the majority of axes has to be routed toward shaka ASAP.
I also need to hurry up and get that turtleshell city up.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T94 situation, thinking/planning :

Shaka being his friendly self. Lovely quote.

I had a trade for fur before the war, and noone has anything to offer and likewise noone seem to be interested in the resources I have to offer.
Still one AI unmet, can't remember who it was.
I should probably prioritize monarchy highly, seeing I have alot of units and so little happines.

Noone has aestethics which is very good. But diplo is complicated... not sure how to get some serious brokering going on.
Not sure that CoL would do that much for me. Vassalage and longbows would help alot if I'm the target of Shaka and if I can get them in time.
Less worried about him even though he is boasting about his horsearchers though, as he is a long way from catapults.
If I ignore the clam-spot I could go for a engineering bulb...

There is actually alot of room for cities, and not all are too shabby either.
Red dot feels like a obvious choice to me, being across river and on a hill while being decent long term too. This is the "Turtle shell" that I speak of against Shaka. Before Boudica crashed my party I was going to expoit this idea and keep her friendly while letting him throw units at me at this location.
This spot has highest priority!

Blue dot to claim horses is meh, and unlikely to go for that as thre is already 3 AIs able to trade horses. Won't need them for a long time either.
Yellow spot will/can wait to enable a engineering bulb.
Bright green could help mature some cottages, but is highly unlikely. When I have time to settle that capital will be able to work all cottages anyway.
White spot on the copper would solve problems of too much food in Beshebalik short term, while helping to culture-push Boudica.
Magenta+Black spot I'm thinking could put the wheat to better use as Old Sarai is nearing happy-cap and will grow ok with it's floodplains anyway. Black couldculture push the barb city, and would likely get at least one floodplain long term. It could also greatly aid Turfan by holding the gold while Turfan does more usefull things.
Most of the tasks in magenta+black could be solved with just one city, 1N of the silk.

Getting to 8-11 cities peacefully won't be a problem, but peace seems to be a problem.

Axes moving west to Shaka, swords moving east to barb city.

 

[Izuul]

How long will an AI refuse to talk after giving in to a demand to cancel trade deals with them?

Edit: Found a DanF post from 2008. That guy was incredible..

It's random -- each turn the AI rolls a random number between 0..29 (MEMORY_STOPPED_TRADING_RECENT = 30 from CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml) and in case of 0 it forgets and will be willing to talk again. This 3.33% chance is equal for all leaders and independent of game speed and their attitude towards you. So this differs from the unwillingness to talk after a DoW which isn't subject to randomness but a function of war success, the leader's personality as well as the side that started the war.

Sounds like it will last a long time unless lucky.

To expand a little bit. Given a 1/30 chance the odds of having the AI talk after a given number of turns are as follows:

10T - 29%
30T - 64%
50T - 82%
100T - 97%

Given that, it's probably a mistake to ever open borders with a certain AI in this game. It happened to me as well Krikav.

 

[Tobiyogi]

very intriguing map, good work @krikav

it took me three attempts to get a good standing in that game.

My achievements until 175 BC on IMMORTAL (without huts/events/brokering).

Spoiler :

Settled on the PH 2S2E for the most possible food / fast worker and a reason to go AGRI first. With so much forest to chop, I wanted absolutely avoid to spend 7T on farming FP to the north. Ignored the north completely and settled city2 NE towards gold and city3 SE towards silver/fur. I blocked off Boudica and got good cities.
When I had 8 Keshiks, I went towards her border city Vienne where she had stacked the most units. I put three axes in the forest and "keshiked" directly towards Bibracte. Stupid AI catapulted my axes again and again while my keshiks took out 3 other cities. (Screenshot). That is definitely one way of making the most out of Keshiks.
Then I made peace for several techs and re-opened borders very soon. We still trade a bit, I can give her anything because she will be gone soon. Shake has also declared on her but I will be first to finish her off (in 3 turns). Then I need currency, Lit, CoL, Civil service. Parthenon is built in Karakorum, and GL will follow. No-one has even Astetics besides Sury. Buddishm seems to be the most popular religion and as soon as I take her buddist city, I can convert. Religion seems important to me in that game, also I want to switch later to Theocracy.

I begin to see why you like Kublai @krikav
for ex., in a conquered city, as soon as the revolt is over, you can whip the library, next turn you produce already 4 culture. After library whip, barracks are also ready in 1T. Then you could start producing units. Axes get shock or charge and win much more fights that would be 50/50 otherwise. Good combination of traits, plus the perfect synergy of Ger/ Keshiks.

 

[krikav]

Thanks @Izuul I was wondering about that! I have been very reluctant to giving in on these demands as it can really screw you up. Nice to know how it works!

@Tobiyogi Really glad you enjoy the map! (I know I do!)

Spoiler :

Funny with those forested axes, looks like you tricked Boudicas pathfinding somehow.

 

[krikav]

Any thoughts or advice on techpath going forward?

Spoiler T94-T101 :

Reached aestethics, put one turn into alfabet and T98 I trade Aestethics for: math+40g with Capac, for alfa with Boudica and for 140g with sury.

Now I feel quite convinced that Shaka too wants my head.
I gift him Aestethics with the idea to get +4 fair trade, get friendly so I can beg meditation and buy 10 turns to stock up the hill city.
However, I only get +1 fair trade. I will NOT give him math as I still fear catapults so I just hope my well promoted axes can stand a good chance.
If I know shaka right, those units are just some of the stack and I can await 5-10 horse archers, and 10+ impis/swords/axes.

I was hoping Boudica or Sury would pick of some of the archers one by one, but now I'm forced to take a chance and get this city before her.

I got much better odds than I thought. Noticed later that the top defender was promoted city garrison2, while the others was unpromoted. Had I known I would probalby have taken the city way earlier.
Attacking with the 3xp swords first as they are expendable, the two 10xp swords I'm more careful with.
Free granary, a worker in the deal and 4 pop!

This was weird, Shakas stack in Nodwengu went away. Have built a scout in capital and in turfan that will go scout west and east now.
Will settle that hill next turn. Units are already building up fortification.

Abit at a crossroads techwise now...
One way forward is to get MC and masonry somehow and tech/bulb machinery and engineering.
A more peaceful aproach would be to tech drama which opens up the possibility to bulb philosophy. Looks like drama has excellent trading value.
I'm also tempted to go toward CS through feudalism, so CoL isn't really needed.
But wouldn't be horrid to just shut down research for two turns, save up cash and go for an academy either...

Whipping abit and putting overflow and some chops into Shwedagon Paya.

 

[Fippy]

Hmm how long until you could get another GS for both bulbs (Machinery & Engi) ?
Boudi teching Machinery already is interesting, any chance that she could become friendly if you switch into Juda?
Would be useful for some happy too, i guess you could balance out relations with other AIs (HC likes HR) while building them up with Sury who looks strong.

Fair trade diplo points largely depend on how long you know that AI, since it's almost 100t with Shaka you did get only 1. Annoying, but Aest wasn't worth that much anymore too
Drama looks great.

 

[krikav]

@Izuul Not OB and perhaps also not trade resources? Or is it just OB that triggers the trade embargo demands? Yes, refraining from that would probably have been wise. But I bet we both will be very lucky and have it wear of in just a turn or two!

@Fippy

Spoiler :

Regarding Boudica and friendly, I'm not sure... I got +4 fair trade and a liberation bonus, but also a penalty for refusing to close borders. And since recent war I guess it will take some time to build up "years of peace" and "open borders", have no resource trades yet either.
I have refrained from adopting Judaism because I'm greedy and wants them to ask me to swap first. (Stupid me, consulted "know-your-leader" now and they are both at 2/10 to ask religion swap.) but that is the path I am heading, of to Judaism, long term plan is (or was) to engage in a culture war of sorts against Boudica and feel safe since she is strong and doesn't declare at pleased, while sweeping the map the other direction.
Plan is abit of rails now.
Cities where working scientists for alot of the time during the war, due to abysmal happycap, so second GSci is at high 70s or so, so only 20 turns. You thinking of a mach+engineering bulb?
I'm not sure rushing an early engineering will help me much, as Shaka has been plotting (and likely to target me) I will be up against alot of units and I need to mind the quantity of my stack as well as the quality. So if I hurry alot, I don't think I'll be able to profit mightely from the early trebs as I would still need to build up other units for a while.
Or is this a misjudgement...?

 

[Pengu]

Imm until 200 BC:

Spoiler Game :

As I didn't know my surroundings I decided to SIP. And a really poor area with low commerce made it tough early. Went AH-min-bronze as there was so much forest and not much else. My worker was idle for a few turns building roads
which sucks. Went for an early settler as growth was slow and settled 1 S of copper. I took my scout all around the world and met everyone. Went for another settler as I wanted the gold and settled by the coast for the wheat and gold.
Got a bit lucky as a barb spearman almost got the city with 33% odds. With a couple of barb cities around and with Shaka and Boudica as neighbour I had to build a few axes. Got math after what seemed liked an eternity and traded all the techs I could to catch up. Settled 2 more cities, 1 NW by the copper and the other east by the grassland cow. When I finally got currency everyone had it but Stalin, who refuses to trade anyway. My tech pace has been horrible. Boudica and Shaka both started plotting so I was ready just in case. When I saw Boudica taking her stack through my territory I took my axes and snagged the barb city to the east by the pigs. And when Shaka moved his stack to Mansa's border I moved my axes and snagged the other barb city east of the gold. And just before ending the session I founded 1 more city by the fp N of my capitol. So besides being behind in tech quite a bit, it's looking ok as Shaka and Boudica are occupied elsewhere, for now...
Will try to get an academy and get aesthetics so I can at least trade for monarchy. Everyone has between 8-10 cities now. I adopted the same religion as Boudica and the plan the get her to pleased before her war vs mansa ends.

 

[Izuul]

Should be either OB or resource deals. I only had OB in my game.. no resource trades. Refraining from OB with 1 civ won't hurt you too much in most cases. It becomes more difficult if they are your neighbor and you need the OB to move through their territory or for foreign trade routes, but that's probably not going to be the case most of the time.

Avoiding resource trades could be trickier. But if you have dangerous neighbors that hate said AI, there's a pretty good chance it's just a matter of time before they make the demand anyway and at that point you have to decide if your trade relations are worth the possibility of being attacked if you refuse.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T101-T109 Not dead yet. :

Shaka moving closer...

Sury asks me to adopt Judaism, worst possible timing as I'm whipping units to defend. (4hammers into axe/spear, then overflow into Swadogon because right now, some failgold feels almost as important as keeping alive).

That sword must have been extremly lucky. Yes it's in a city and on a hill and over a river, but still. Killing 3 horse archers of it's own makes it deserve the name Rambo.
Many AIs are willing to trade me fur, incense, ivory and wine, but I have nothing that they desire!

Is that stack moving in my direction? yes it is! Doubt he would attack Boudica, can only hope it's destined for Mansa. I beg 10g and the fist doesn't go away.
Previously I would have been so happy about this, but after the incident with boudica I don't know anymore.

Ok, THIS is the Shaka I know! Was wondering what had gotten into him earlier with so few units.
20 units in attackrange.
He is willing to talk, but I can only give him the city I want to defend. Drama is a turn late to save me here.

Oh yeah!! Take that you scumbag! He still requests Samarqand for peace, but I'm sure he will accept drama as well.

Far from friendly with Boudica (+4) bordertension and first impression and deying request takes it's toll. And will take a long time to build up religious relationship.
I think I'll have to ditch plans to bulb engineering. I should probably selftech fishing->sailing and trade for calendar. I really need my two spices and two silk to get some resource trades.
Also, I'm quite desperate for peace right now, still close to negative territory at 0% research. 400 failgold from Paya has given me some manourering room though.

Mansa founded taoism 1-2 turns ago, so I'm abit unsure if it's worth it to bulb, but not sure how to broker and do trades with drama to get up to speed either as it doesn't trade 1-1 for most of the things I need (currency, monarchy, calendar).

Boudica is going for engineering and I'll probably get friendly with her eventually. So can trade for that later.

While I'm desperatly defending against Shaka, a barb axe spawned in the SW and went up and smashed my deer. And right after I killed it and sent workers there, another barb axe is comming from the SW! Shaka doesn't do his part fogbusting.

This game has taken me straight of my rails. I'm so used with calling the shots and being in control. Having a peaceful time and building up before I strike and win.
Having alot of fun with this game, have a feeling I'm just barely hanging by my fingernails.

Sort of a plan:
Bulb or not bulb philo, do some trades and get back into tech parity, chop out heroic (and a theatre) in samarqand to push into Shakas territory, get the calendar resources up and get trades to grow cities, and then go for a medieval unit push into Shakas territory when he turns toward Mansa which he is likely to do during the 10 turn peace treaty.

Or I'll just die to Sury.

 

[elementoffear]

@krikav thanks for a great game!

Also

Spoiler :

F#%K Shaka, backstabbing A@#$*&E

 

[Pengu]

Imm until 1060 AD

Spoiler game :

Oh boy. Well, Shaka is a pain. He was plotting and had his stack on Mansa's border so I assumed he'd attack. But he just stood there which kind of was good as I didn't want Boudica and Shaka crushing him.
Well, I did manage to catch up somewhat with aes but the supid AI really teased me with music missing it with one turn. I got the 3 last spots and had 11 cities. I did manage to get GL but didn't get as much failgold as I'd liked. My scout was constantly checking was Shaka was doing and all of a sudden he stops plotting and heads down south with his army. Only to see that he goes after a barb city in the tundra....I have chances to bribe him in on Mansa but I don't want Mansa to be totally crushed as Shaka will definitely attack me after Mansa is gone. And again when the AP vote let everyone attack Mansa. And my NO vote ruled that out as i don't want to see mansa dogpiled. And then when finally Boudica makes peace with Mansa and I'd like to bribe Shaka he has started plotting. He moves his big stack north by Mansa's citiy and I thought, I'm in the clear. Shaka switches religion so I can no longer beg... I myself just slowly tries to go for Lib into MT. And then after some time he takes his big stack and moves it to my border. And I am so close to cuirs but not there yet. When he declares I have no choice to abandon my most western pig city. I do bribe Stalin and Sury in on the action, but they are pretty far away. I slug it out and slowly but surely puch him back and take back my city and whipe out his stack. Now my tech pace is zero and I have taken 2 out of his cities. I am scared the other Ai's will get rifling and hope I can vassalize Shaka quick(which never works against that stubborn oaf) and then go for Mansa. What I will do after that I do not know. If only Shaka had waited another 10 turns and I could have had him much quicker. He was so damn irrational this game. He hated Mansa and not once did he attack him even though his stack stood outside his area for over 500 years... Feels like it might be a long game. At least Boudica will not attack me.

 

[krikav]

@Pengu

Spoiler :

Sounds like you are having almost exacly the type of game I had in mind when I made the map.
This was not intended to be a easy game on the higher difficulties.

Also, it's never boring with Shaka as a neighbour, and inland sea makes it so that he only has one other land target.

Good to hear that you are having Boudica under control.

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

Thanks for playing! Yes, Shaka does that.

What difficulty are you playing on? Would like to hear if it's bearable on noble/prince or if the situation is too tough and hopeless.