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Nobles' Club 215: Hammurabi of Babylon

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Hammurabi of Babylon, whom we last played in NC 171. The Babylonians start with Agriculture and The Wheel.
    • Traits: Hammurabi is Aggressive and Organized. Aggressive gives all Melee and Gunpowder units a free Combat 1 promotion, and gives +100%:hammers: on Barracks and Drydocks. Organized halves the cost of civic upkeep and gives +100%:hammers: on Lighthouses, Courthouses and Factories.
    • The UB: The Garden, a Colosseum with +2:health:. Consider it an Aqueduct that costs 20% less :hammers: while providing +1:), which can be stacked with an actual Aqueduct when the Industrial Era rolls around and Coal Plants generate inordinate amounts of :yuck:.
    • The UU: The Bowman, an Archer with +50% vs. Melee units. Melee units make up most of your opponents during the era in which Bowman are relevant, so especially with an AGG Barracks to back them up these guys will keep you well safe against barbarians. Both the regular kind and the uppity neighbour kind ;).
    And the start:

    Spoiler map details :
    Continents, Temperate climate, high sealevel
    Spoiler edits :
    Swapped a source of Horse with Iron. Bowman, you know...:satan:
    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 215 Hammurabi Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labelled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
    For those looking for an extra challenge, go forth and rule the world! All Aggressive leaders, thanks to the free Combat 1 promotions on melee and gunpowder units, are able to get Amphibious units right out the gate with a Barracks and either Vassalage or Theocracy. Combined with Frigates to bombard down city defences you've got a solid army to take out coastal cities all around the world. So do your best Ragnar impression and plunder the bounty of those poorly defended coastal cities :viking:.
     

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  2. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Screenshot comes very close to the "Two Rivers" Mesopotemia! My only hope is that Gilgamesh is not around :mad: I would move the warrior on the pigs hill because the SW looks more promising and very likely settle 1 SW
     
  3. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Pure coincidence on the rivers, actually :).
     
  4. Pengu

    Pengu Prince

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    Very funny 1st try...
    Spoiler funny :
    Semi isolation with Monty and as soon as I met him he started plotting. I didn't even know exactly where he was as he was quite some distance away and he just turned up with a stack 1200 BC and declared. What can I do? No time to get him to pleased at all. I more or less have to rush a settler out as fast as I can and escort it trying to find Monty's land and then gift a city hoping he hasn't started plotting by then. Chances of that is low and even if so I will be set back immensly. Very funny map...
     
  5. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Personally I assume that peace isn't an option when Monty is on the board. Even someone actively fighting him is no assurance that he won't attack you, I experienced that first-hand and actually would have lost a game if I didn't build Archers in preparation. Monty is that crazy. Bowman are a better answer to Monty than trying to get him to Pleased and praying he won't start plotting on you until you can get him to Friendly, I think. I checked the odds, and Bowman should be able to weather anything Monty throws at you until he gets siege units. Especially since he's stuck with his 5:strength: unique Swords.
     
  6. Pengu

    Pengu Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Just hate to go hunting-archery when there are not even hunting resources. Delays everything which is even worse when you have to self tech everything.
     
  7. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    It is definitely a detour, but sometimes it's necessary to survive. Honestly I kind of wish that Hammurabi wasn't AGG in this situation. It deters going Archery even more, since you might not need it to protect yourself against barbarians until barb axes start showing up. And by that point you've generally got any place that can spawn barbarians fogbusted.
     
  8. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Playing IMM NHNE, it's 600 AD and someone discovered Lib on another continent.... I don't know if that's early in terms of year and date (because I don't pay attention to that), but if I compare it to where I am now, not even at CS, it is early! What's going on here? I have the slight assumption that....

    Spoiler :
    ...the other continent is loaded with research and wonder bittches while we are semi-isolated with Monty. I will soon have caravels and paper and find out who is there. I suppose at least HC and Mansa Musa.
     
  9. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    You can tell whether Mansa Musa is in the game on T0 by checking the Soldiers count. You can similarly check for Hammurabi if Mansa isn't in the game, but on this map that is obviously not very relevant :). For the record
    Spoiler :
    my testing indicated that there wasn't much risk of a crazy teching lovefest, AI wise, so no clue what's going on with someone getting Lib that early. Maybe someone bumbled their way into a Lib bulb? Curious to see what your caravels reveal.
     
  10. Biggs_Pliff

    Biggs_Pliff Chieftain

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    Tried this one, made some bad decisions, didn't go so well.

    Spoiler :
    Monty held off from attacking me for a long time and lulled me into a false sense of security, i was just about to get a heavy footman army together when the vast hordes of monty swept down in waves, took back my 2 cities he took and took one of his but there's just no end to them so i gave up, my fault for trying to avoid an early rush for some mad reason


    think i'll just try again sometime soon because i liked how it was going for the most part i just waited too long
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  11. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Oh boy, I'm really behind. It's certainly one of my weaker games with some wrong decisions, but I never experienced on IMM that...
    Spoiler :
    ... the first two guys who I meet in 800 AD by caravel already have Astro! Willem and Rosy. Cannot even tell who has discovered Lib. Only Bismarck is still more behind than me, and Monty of course.

    One thing from the early game has slowed me down quite decently. It has to do with the peaceweight ratio from the BUG / BAT mod. The ratio with ....
    Spoiler :
    ...my lovely aztec neighbuour is -2. That's too much negatives for getting him early enough to friendly with city gift and shared religion. So in the last terms of Pleased he still was attacking me. He didn't take any city but it cost me a lot of hammers to defend. Why cannot Hammurabi and Monty be in the neutral ratio, they are both AGG? Is that due to the difficulty? Also part of my fault. If I had gifted earlier, maybe he hadn't started plotting at all.
     
  12. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    With Monty on the map peace is not an option, unfortunately. Avoiding an early rush is just delaying the inevitable.


    Spoiler :
    What the religion/diplo situation with the other AIs? Testing indicated that it would descend into a religiously diverse hellhole with basically every AI having a Worst Enemy and not much in the way of friends/allies, probably a war or two as well. Such a situation should slow down the tech pace, since even Mansa won't trade with his worst enemy.

    As far as I know AIs don't care about peaceweights when determining First Impression with the player, it's just a flat +2 to -2 depending how how aggressive the AI is (Monty, needless to say, falls on the "aggressive" side of that spectrum) and difficulty level - the more aggressive the AI and the higher the difficulty the lower an AIs First Impressions modifier. On Deity I think only very peaceful AIs will give the player +0, everyone else will give either -1 or -2. Not sure about IMM, but I imagine there's not much difference between it and Deity in this regard.

    It might seem like an unfair mechanic, but it's better than the alternative. Regular peaceweights would make playing the peaceful leaders much more dicey, in fact when playing as Gandhi Monty's First Impression could go as low as -8, starting him right at Furious :eek:.
     
  13. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Spoiler Diplo situation :
    They are torn up into two religions but the problem is... Mansa trades with everyone and Willem is buddy with Rosy, so they have that interchange of Lib/Astro/PP/Nationalism going on. Saladin is very strong on its own, I guess he has the biggest part of the land. So really only Bismarck who is weaker than the two losers on my continent :) honestly, that game is lost and I have even cashed in some "Traded with our worst enemies" because I was desperate for techs. So no-one likes me besides Bismarck.
     
  14. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Hmm :think:...not the situation I expected that continent to end up in, I was expecting a lot more death and diversity.

    As for the loss, is that a case of mistakes culminating in an impossible situation or is the map just too much? I know Semi-iso with Monty is a rough situation, but I truly believe that there's more one can learn from it than, say, being Semi-iso with Gandhi and just casually rolling him over with axes/chariots. That Archery is a necessary detour for some maps, for instance, is pretty well on display here, which you definitely wouldn't get with Gandhi.
     
  15. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Well, in my specific game, the other continent is really strong, the astro/lib date shows that quite well. For catching up, I should have followed a more stringent line in the first place, either to please Monty or to prepare for a take-over of his land. I tried to please him and still was attacked. And I realize only now, that even permanent with him is for no good (in semi-iso) because he will never be a sufficient trading partner. So taking his land first and then invade the other continent seems to be the only option with our leader traits.
     
  16. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    That's pretty much how I expected players to approach this map - take out Monty early, leverage ORG to combine the two empires into one affordable behemoth that can compete with the other continent, and later take it over with AGG Amphibious gunpowder units. If the game lasts long enough cheap factories + Gardens allow you to quickly industrialize without completely choking your cities in :yuck:, which should provide a slight boost.

    Trying to play peaceful with Monty is not something I consider viable. Dude is just too crazy. Even if you manage to get him to Friendly before he plots on you you'll inevitably get a bunch of diplo penalties with him after contact with the other continent is made, since he'll demand that you stop trading with someone and DoW someone else that he's at war with and so on. Eventually that'll drop him back down to pleased, and who is the one AI in the game that'll declare war over a refused demand even when already in a war? Yeah. With Monty on the board peace is not an option.
     
  17. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Spoiler how to warfare :
    If I tried that again, I would probably let him attack once or twice and when he has consumed all this troops I would rush for that sugar city first. We have horse and iron, HBR is a waste for only one opponent and he builds many spears. So a quick IW would be key to strike back.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler Did pair of tries. :


    Could not make any decent progress on Monty in either case.
    Tried to liberate a bunch of cities to get to friendly somewhat early, but got him to friendly about ~T100, but by then, he had 12 cities and was seriously starting to pick up teching pace too, and I could not get any trades from him. :)

    I also tried to tech up to construction, turtling up with bowmen, but I wasn't happy with the speed.
    He doesn't have ivory/horses, so one could probably make progress with Xbows+catapults, but it's a tall order. :)

     
  19. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    How tall an order, roughly? Needs a second playthrough to get it done smoothly, or is someone going to need to ask Lain to show people how to beat this map?

    I would be interested in seeing Lain play it, honestly, but than I'd also like to see him lose his mind witnessing the distilled spite of Civ IV RNG that is that Charly map (you remember the one, I'm sure :satan:), but I'm not sure if anyone could handle that much Monty :lol:.
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @AcaMetis
    Spoiler :

    I do remember a Charly map where you was boxed in on a tiny peninsula with Monty, but you could reach the other AIs pre-optics.
    I think this current map is more managable than that!

    TBH, I would be more interested in seeing Lain play this map, rather than the even more impossible one. :)
    This one have a much more realistic feel to it.

     

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