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Nobles' Club 215: Hammurabi of Babylon

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. elementoffear

    elementoffear Warlord

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    Hmm, tough game. But a nice challenge @AcaMetis

    Spoiler :
    First run I actually managed to not get in war with Monty, just gave him everything he wanted, took his religion, gave him resources techs etc. After managing Lib (I'm playing monarch), I started teching towards cuirassiers and managed to build a good army so he doesn't get any ideas. But I didn't feel like I could take him so continued teching. But that was a mistake, because since he was hating on all the other AI's I couldn't realy have good relations with them without him being mad, so got behind on tech and eventually he did back stab me, his only friend :)

    I am trying to think how to go for an early rush but the iron is kind of far, and would really be a cheat with just throwing a settler that way, its not something anyone would every do that early in the game, not with all the good land to the north. Maybe early horse archers?
     
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @elementoffear regarding early warfare.
    Spoiler :

    I think HAs are totally out of the question, Monty has copper in his capital, and he spams units like crazy.
    HAs is not cost efficient enough I think. Also lack of a early commerce resource makes it difficult to get early on, as does the long distance through the jungle.


    As it's on the path toward optics, I think it's reasonable to self-tech toward IW and machinery, to get access to xbows. Warfare involving XBows would probably stand a chance at being cost efficient enough to endure.

     
    elementoffear likes this.
  3. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    gave this one a go on immortal

    Spoiler :
    Things were going pretty well early game. I nabbed Mids in my capital, and settled 4 cities along the river + one by the pig/corn. My tech rate was pretty good, nearing 150 BPT before I switched to police state and started whipping. After discovering I was alone with Monty I decided that bowmen would hold me over until I could muster an engineering attack. I gathered up two nice stacks of trebs and crossbowman/swordsman(all he had was melee and a few LB), and off I went. I thought I had him in the bag after killing what I thought was his main stack and capturing four cities. After heavy whipping my economy crashed and my units went into revolt, so I had to slow down on further unit production. I let one of my stacks heal a few turns after taking city #4, and out of the fog comes Monty with a secondary stack of over 30 units. This is where I ragequit after he wiped one of my stacks. If I had to do this again, I think I'd maybe grab optics before attacking, so I could at least supplement my economy with some overseas trade routes


    edit: Had a bit of a brainfart there. Monty, not Shaka.
     
  4. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    I think this map is a situation where you want to bait Monty into suiciding his stack before you move in, if he doesn't make the first move. That said I'm not sure where he was keeping that army and why it didn't show itself earlier. I guess it was headed for your territory, but got rerouted to retake Monty's cities before they got there and ended up tangoing in the fog until your army finally took a turn to rest? No clue.
     
  5. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    Do AI attack multiple cities at once? It looked like he had one stack headed towards each of the previously captured cities, but they rerouted and joined each other to recapture his holy city. They definitely converged from different directions. And I did try baiting him to an extent, but I think next time I need to scout better and wait longer. I declared, moved my stacks into the forest/jungle surrounding his cities, and let him suicide into my crossbows until his initial stacks were gone(I wiped a stack of 15 units with no losses this way). I would also let him build up troops in his cities, and wipe all but one after attacking with trebs. If I kept that up I might have been ok, but the disbanded swordsman scared me and I felt the need to push on for capture gold.

    I'm considering giving this another go, but what scares me is deep down I know Monty won't even be the biggest challenge. Wonders were going insanely quickly this game, so I have no doubt that after finishing off Monty there will be several more juggernauts lined up for a slice of Hammy
     
  6. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    As far as I know AIs prefer to focus on one city at a time, at least I don't think I've ever seen an AI split it's stack and attack multiple cities at once. Players, sure, but not an AI. I guess that logic can get a bit screwy when you're talking about an AI like Monty who's got so many units that he might have multiple "stacks", though.

    With an entire continent at your disposal you should be able to overcome whatever juggernauts await you in the darkness. ORG should help with building an economically stable empire, which can later launch AGG naval invasions if that's the route you want(/have) to take.
     
  7. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    My fear is that no amount of land will be able to make up for the fact that I had no trades all game, and I haven't been teching during an extremely long war to conquer Monty.


    Regardless, I'm giving it another go! This screenshot is where we're at circa 25AD. I settled a little differently this time, and actually missed the clam because I completely forgot it was there and didn't scout enough the second go around. Not the end of the world because settling the horse let me share the cottages a little earlier, and it also has fresh water. A couple things I'm unsure about... Should I get currency? Any detour seems like it gets Monty closer to better military techs, so I don't know if I can afford it here. Building wealth would help me a lot more than research, but I Imagine I'll be whipping fairly soon anyways.

    I've also got one GS in my capital with another inbound in 5 turns. Should I build an academy with one and use the other to bulb optics? Or is there something better I can do with the second?Academy seems not so great when I'll be whipping, but I definitely want optics so I can start trading.

    edit: I forgot to mention I don't have compass yet, so using a bulb on that could also be an option.

    second edit: it occurs to me that settling one of those GS would improve my economy by about 10% while I'm in rep.. Is that crazy? Provided I don't get calendar and don't bulb compass or build an academy, the second GS will want to bulb aesthetics and that does nothing for me.

    I'm also having insane thoughts about trading Monty the horse for some happiness resources while I whip, and then throwing a few pikemen into my stacks. Any thoughts on that?

    NC.png

     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  8. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    For the Great Scientists, an Academy seems like it's not going to help you at all short-term. Bulbing is an option and probably what you should be saving them for (Optics -> Astronomy), but I would consider settling them both in the capitol. I think you will need Currency to avoid total economic collapse while you're in the middle of conquering Monty and later rebuilding his empire, and settling both (+2:hammers:) might possibly allow Babylon to contribute to the war effort without being whipped into the ground. If you can keep your capitol alive and functional on production tiles you'd have one strong city working five mature cottages, which would do a lot to support your war effort and your slow crawl to Currency. Probably can't afford to not whip it into the ground for units, mind, but it's a nice idea.

    On the Horses it depends on what Monty has, tech-wise. If he doesn't have HBR (which I doubt) he'd only build Chariots, which aren't worth worrying about I don't think. Horse Archers would be more annoying, but not insurmountable. Knights, though, no thanks.
     
  9. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    So this go around he declared on me 1 turn before I had engineering. There was no plotting, but I knew it was coming because he moved a sizable stack to my border. I had already begun building crossbows by that point, so I was able to wipe out his army incredibly efficiently. According to the stats page I've killed 39 jaguar, 29 axeman, 18 spearman, and 18 catapults. I lost only one unit, which was a swordsman at 99%. The bad news is it's 1050AD and I haven't made much progress besides killing his attackers. My first great general became a healer, my second was attached to 4 trebs, and my third I don't know what to do with. I razed the barb city he captured, and I've killed all the units in his sugar/gems city. I want to start whittling him away, but I'm afraid that if I split my stack I'll encounter the same thing as last game. It's also so efficient letting him try to defend his cities and then wiping him that I'm tempted to keep at it until I know he's truly done for. It's likely not in my best interest to do that though, as he's starting to get his own crossbows out and may have longbows soon. Not too sure what to do next, or if I've already taken too long for this game to be winnable. 1050AD with my tech seems really bad.

    m2.png
    m3.png
     
  10. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Your economy is already in a deficit at 0%, so I don't think you'll be building enough units to justify settling the GG. I'd say send him to the front and attach him to whatever units need a boost/quick heal, no reason to have him stick around to help in a distant future which may never be.

    As for whether to move forward or not I'd say you need a spy to check out if he's got another stack running about, but chances are that you didn't tech Alphabet. So the only indication is the power ratio, which...well, it's Monty. I don't know how many units he keeps in his cities and whether 0.7 indicates he's got another stack or not. I'm afraid that's your call, I'm not too experienced in high-level warfare like this.

    As for being behind, eh, chances are you're very behind no matter what the situation with the other AIs is, since having to detour to Engineering and take out an 11-city Monty is pretty time consuming. If you can take out Monty within in a reasonable timeframe I think you should be able to recover, though. After the war you'll have, what, 18-odd cities, you're ORG so you can build up fairly quickly and make it all affordable, and you'll get Astro trade routes with most of them so you should be able to catch up. At least I don't think any AI is going to win Culture or Space before you're able to put up some sort of fight, even if it's not going to be a pretty one.
     
  11. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    spies sound like a great idea. I actually did research alpha to open the optics bulb. Ive never really used them for scouting so ill have to give that a go. As for the GG, im thinking of settling. It occurs to me that after whipping so hard i should have switched back into rep(police state does nothingfor me if i cant build units). Hopefuly i can regrow my cities onto some cottages after switching, and whip out some units in monty's cities when they get out of revolt. I dont think i have enough xbows to leave defenders behind at the moment, but the capture gold and +3 happiness should allow me to build a few more units that i can use for that purpose. Also the settled GG and 2x GS will provide a few beakers to help me limp towards optics/calendar, and then hopefully i can bulb astro and try to get back into the trading game.
     
  12. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    Spies are great scouts barring the fact that they can get caught. Otherwise 2:move: and Commando is hard to beat, especially on a unit that has tricks like Incite City Revolt and is invisible to everything short of a nuke. I'd say at least the odds of them getting caught are relatively low, but low odds and Civ IV have a long and storied history...
     
  13. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    So this war is definitely not panning out how I planned. It took so long that he has macemen now, and my lvl 4-5 crossbows are getting wiped. Meanwhile I met the other continent, and they have scientific method, physics, chemistry, replaceable parts, democracy, etc. This even just happened(you know you're behind when...)


    ai.png
     
  14. elementoffear

    elementoffear Warlord

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    Did anyone manage to actually win this game?
     
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  15. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    ...Whelp. Going to have to dial back the difficulty of these maps just a bit, in the future.
     
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  16. elementoffear

    elementoffear Warlord

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    I play on monarch and couldn't manage it a couple of times.
    Spoiler :

    I think the issue here was giving a Monty such a huge chunk of land, whenever I play as a war monger maps are not that in your favor.
     
  17. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    :lol: to be fair it was the first game I tried on immortal. I somewhat expected failure.

    Spoiler :
    the issue, as far as I see it, is his cities are so spread out that it just takes forever to take them all out with 1mp units. more so if you try to hold the cities. I think the play here might be a defensive war until cuirassiers, and then just raze everything and resettle. 10-15 crossbows can hold off anything he sends at you and cuirs should be really effective since he's really slow to get feudalism/machinery.
     
  18. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Hmm...:think:
    Spoiler :
    I wasn't really counting the cities in the jungle belt as cities Monty could get much use of, since they take Iron Working to improve and I figured that the player would be showing up on his doorstep not long after (all my talk of how useful Bowman are, well they don't do so well against maces or especially crossbows, so read into that what you will). I honestly wasn't expecting people to go Crossbows and trebs, I was expecting basically a bowman choke/rush on lower difficulties and axepult with a small stack of Early Monty DoW Defenders bowman tagging along as future city defenders on higher difficulties. Is this not viable? Does Monty just spam too many units to take him out early?


    The idea was that people would fail the first time, so they could figure out what they did wrong and win the map on future attempts with whatever knowledge they gained. The latter half seems to have not happened, however.

    Spoiler :
    It's an option, although the bulb path needed to get towards Military Tradition don't agree with bulbing Astronomy, so that would be delayed. Better to delay Astronomy than to delay Monty's very much required demise, though, unless you can pull some kind of shenanigans with meeting the other AIs early.
     
  19. elementoffear

    elementoffear Warlord

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    Is there a peaceful strategy here?
    Spoiler :
    I mean we are insulated, but is Monty around meaning the war will come at some point?
     
  20. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    Spoiler :
    With Monty on the board there can be no peace. Even if you manage to hold out until you make contact with the other continent (a small miracle in it's own right) you'll just end up having to refuse demands to stop trading with worst enemies/declare war/etc. when Monty meets the others, which will inevitably put him at Pleased or below, and refusing a demand from Monty when he's not friendly means he can start plotting on you. Even if he's already in a war he can start plotting and DoW you. Dude is that crazy.

    Worse, there's just not that much to be gained from being Monty's (temporary) friend, besides him not trying to kill you right this second. He's not a good trading partner, he's demanding with a hair-trigger temper(?), and chances are high that the rest of the world is going to hate him.
     
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