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Nobles' Club 215: Hammurabi of Babylon

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    Spoiler :
    Well damn. My plan was legitimately to sit on my island and nuke everyone until they capped :lol:. I guess I'll have to rethink this one. Attacking across the ocean into a Mansa with railroad, fascism, AL, artillery, etc doesn't sound very promising lol.

    Maybe I'll take a little break from this one and try that nuke strategy out on a lower difficulty to see what happens. Deep down I feel like enough nukes would make them capitulate, but I have absolutely no evidence or reasoning for that belief.
     
  2. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    The thing with trying to use just nukes to force a capitulation not working is that I don't think nukes deleting units contribute to your war success, and you need at least so much for an AI to capitulate. I think. Once you have it I'm sure Mansa would indeed be more willing to talk if he suddenly found an irradiated crater where his army used to be, but in terms of getting war success I'm not sure if nukes will help you.
     
  3. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Based on the comments in NC Asoka, I got the idea this map would be a tougher version, and it surely is. Obv didn't dare deity with this premise. I didn't read spoilers before playing, but I knew it's
    Spoiler :
    semi-isolated.


    1AD
    Spoiler :
    I think AcaMetis's idea for this game is valid. At least on immortal, I think the best idea is just just let Monty come and harvest exp+gg points with bowmen behind walls. He certainly can't hurt you pre-construction. Of course, without foreign trade routes tech is not super fast and being in war does drain some :hammers: and units cost upkeep. So definitely not going to be BCs optics this game.

    I think settling 1SW is the logical choice (loses plains, doesn't settle on forest, gains fp). Claiming 2nd pig was a pleasant surprise. AH-mining-BW. It's soon clear that barbs can cause trouble so mines are handy. Map has lots of strong food tiles, but lack of chops and health is an issue. Going for Mids seems mandatory. Chose to settle 2nd SW, since the location won't be harassed by barbs. Corn+oasis in NE would be a bit stronger site but too risky. Plains hill to the NW is a possibility, but lacks a food tile. Screenshot shows the initial settling plan, but of course the stone site needs to be scouted more.

    Civ4ScreenShot0127.JPG

    T82 Mids (and writing) in, so certainly not stellar pace. By now I realize I've overbuilt workers (5) and have many unworked improved tiles. Akkad and Nippur get libraries to run scientists asap to double bulb astro. 3rd :gp: can be taken from capital (probably golden age). A bowman is travelling south to harvest xp.

    Civ4ScreenShot0128.JPG

    T86 Montball declares war with a tiny stack. I hadn't really even prepared for it (no walls, needed to coldwhip 2nd bowman). He gets really lucky rolls in initial attack but I hold the city nevertheless.

    Civ4ScreenShot0129.JPG

    Monty's high attack courage is favorable for defending. :)

    Civ4ScreenShot0130.JPG

    1 AD situation is ok, no sign of catapults yet. Need to dance between Sippar and Dur-K to keep both adequately defended. Borsippa is on a hill so not an issue. I have an emergency settler ready, but not sure if I can settle it (to give it for peace). At machinery maybe I can start pushing. 2nd GS coming in 19T (~500AD) so should be 500AD astro.

    Civ4ScreenShot0131.JPG

     

    Attached Files:

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  4. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @sampsa

    Spoiler :
    I'm surprised Monty didn't snag a religion in your game. I replayed this a number of times and he almost always got Hinduism or Buddhism. Anyways best of luck :thumbsup: I'll be following this one closely & rooting for you!
     
  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Astro
    Spoiler :

    Well, 500AD astro was pretty :smoke:, forgot that I need to meet people to trade alpha+aesth+math+calendar. Tech was also a bit slower than anticipated, but finally 580AD optics with the help of Moai failgold. Cold-whip 3 caravels and loaded a GS+explorer to meet landlocked civs, but finding the other continent seemed to take ages.

    War went well and I just captured a city in NW (corn+2nd ring gems). Double promoted xbows had almost 80% odds vs walled archers/melee and I was lucky to win all 5 fights. :king: Settled two GG:s in capital which I think was a good call - in a defensive war healing with medic1-warriors is enough and with Mids settled GG:s produce 3.75:science:pt which is not a lot, but helpful. Also have two swords+medic1 warrior going to grab the barb city on the silver in the south. Desperately need the :) and at astro the city will be good.

    Civ4ScreenShot0132.JPG


    Finally 820AD met everyone but one civ and decided to pull the trades with compass+optics while I still can. Economy suddenly in decent shape with intercontinental trade routes and sold resources (20gpt). Trying to get literature via trade for HE in capital, then catapults and slowly grab the continent while teching ahead. GS for golden age(?) 11T away, GG for healer 11xp away. Monty's stack is on the middle sugar now and I think I can lure it to my territory for easy pickings. GuerrillaII bowman and sentry chariot made a nice scouting trip to the north with the help of the ridge to the west of Texcoco. Monty's land is very green and juicy. Noob is farming over some of those cottages though...

    Civ4ScreenShot0133.JPG

    Founded a city on the southern horse too, but unfortunately everyone met so far on the other continent don't need it.

    Civ4ScreenShot0134.JPG


    @earthy
    Spoiler :
    Thanks for rooting. :) Yes I think a bit unlucky that he didn't found a religion as that would make peace possible at some point. OTOH it's good to have multiple religions on the other continent.
     
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  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Nice work @sampsa !

    "Bask in the glory that is Babylon!"
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa
    Spoiler :

    One positive side effect about going for optics with these maniacs around, is that you get a excuse to go for xbows rather early. :)
     
  8. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @AcaMetis

    I finally got around to testing it and you can capitulate someone with just nukes! Just for fun I played a game last night where I sat on my island and nuked the world into capitulation. After dropping 2-3 nukes per AI city they were often willing to capitulate the next turn. The only issue was that it made global warming go crazy, and by the end of the game I was losing 6-7 tiles a turn.

    edit: some global warming before/after(from a different map):
    Spoiler global warming :

    it got even worse later on, but this is the last screenshot i can get from autosaves

    globalwarming.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  9. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    another attempt, and a cautionary tale(immortal)

    Spoiler :

    I feel like I've learned a bit lately about optimizing my early game and moderating my whipping, so I gave this map another shot. I first settled the pigs/corn to the NE for production, and only later focused on the flood plains/cottages. Grabbed mids in the capital around t70, then settled my fifth city and will leave it at that until optics. This time I was pumping out Bowmen the whole time, gladly paying the 5-6 GPT to ensure safety from monty.

    Ham91.png



    T123 optics is in, and I send out a single caravel to meet people. It was probably a mistake only sending one since it took forever to meet people. I self teched math/calendar/alpha while the caravel travelled since I had two GS just waiting to bulb astro, and I don't want to hit WFYABTA at this stage of the game on small techs.


    t123.png


    After reaching Astro I spawned a G.Eng and made the questionable decision to bulb Engineering. It wasn't easily available by trade(didn't want to give up astro just yet), and the earlier I can get trebs the earlier I can take out monty. Most likely a mistake, but it's not like I could have used him for taj or anything. With trebs and crossbows(and soon a few maces) I start slowly taking out monty around t153, with a focus on not crashing my economy.

    t158.png


    T205 I take Monty's last city, and head towards communism(questionable maybe since it wasn't a lib game). At this point Mansa is still over 100 turns away from a cultural victory, and although he can research AL/electricity/artillery, I feel like there's no way he can match my production and the victory is all but guaranteed. Just need to reach tech parity or close, and overwhelm him with INF/Art or maybe even tanks. Diplo also looks possible.

    t208.png



    Now things were going so well for me that I decided to break out a few whisky drinks. They may have slightly clouded my judgement. I decided that it would be cute to nuke the crap out of Mansa, seeing as it had worked so well when I was fooling around with it on a different Noble difficulty map. I head towards AL for factories and coal plants, and actually get a little use out of my UB. That +1happy +2health is nice for those late game cesspool cities! I go full on hammer economy, and start preparing to nuke mansa.


    nukes.png



    With about 40 turns remaining until his cultural victory I go for it. How do you like that, Mansa? I swap between police state and universal sufferage to rushbuy nukes when I can, and stay in caste until war weariness forces me into emancipation after attacking.


    mansa.png



    I drop 41 nukes on the bastard, but apparently Immortal and Noble difficulty aren't the same. Instead of offering capitulation, he's only offering 300g for a 10 turn peace treaty :cry:

    What's worse is that despite the fact that his main culture cities have a max of 2-3 tiles each that aren't covered in fallout, it doesn't seem to have slowed down his cultural victory at all! The victory conditions screen is the same as before I nuked him.

    Sooo lesson learned and a cautionary tale for others. Nukes aren't quite as good as they seem! I'm still going to consider this game a win, because from T205 the victory does seem almost guaranteed :lol:

     
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  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Will try to finish it when I have more time

    1180AD
    Spoiler :
    War is won, but I'm behind in tech. Liberalism is still not gone and I could still make a play for it seeing Mansa is going chem. Big mistake on not defying a stop trading resolution on Saladin, forgot that now he won't talk...

    Civ4ScreenShot0154.JPG
     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    So fun that you are still working on this map!
    Darn Monty!
     
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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Ok! You guys convinced me of replaying this. :)

    Spoiler :

    Have done two more tries now, first one I lost pyramids at T63, and I tried to go monarchy and make a living there but it was too frustrating so I went for another go with pyramids.

    Got them at T67 that time around and thats the game I'm fiddling around with now.
    Settled exacly like @sampsa but I went for hunting before AH and accepted 2 turns slower pigs to save beakers.. So, hunt->AH->Mining->archery->myst->mason->BW->Fish->Pot->Writing->IW->MC and now on my way to machinery.

    Had just started to build up some bowmen when Monty had heard the news of my nice new wonder and wanted to come and have a look.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    I was abit worried here.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    But looking in the log, the bowmen have really good odds. Score one point for the babylonian UU!! :D
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Next wave I move some units out, to bait him to strike again.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    And Monty doesn't dissapoint.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    The annoying bastard decided to camp on my pig for what seemed like a eternity. When he finally gathers up enough courage to strike again I get a GGeneral and I now have a bowman at lvl4.
    So T90 I give him a city for peace. And I rush northward with a pair more of whipped settlers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    T96 I get Buddhism by autospread, but missionaries are on the way too. Monty is such a nice guy. <3
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    He was up at 8 cities when he got the city "Peace" for peace. So I thought there was alot of room to gift cities, but I had to move all the way up to the northern coast to plant cities. So there was here 2-3 turns when the peacetreaty was off, and Monty was caucious. Not good.
    I should have planned this better and waited with making peace untill I had the settlers ready.

    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    A barb city spawned in the south, and Monty was marching toward it but my swords got there first (55g, yay!)
    I don't know, but if they are going for abarb city I reccon they don't plot? O_o
    I assumed that in any case, and saved my beg for when the barb city fell.
    I beg for his gems, and since we have known each other for a long time and I'm a land target of his, he is OK with such a big beg.

    I have nothing to give him except for horses, and I don't think I want to give him that, so won't get any diplo points for resources.
    I don't know how long time it takes untill we get "Years of peace" and "Our open borders", but it's likely a long long time.
    So +4 fair trade and +3 liberation and +4 for religion is unlikely to be enough to get him to friendly anytime soon. :(
    But at least now I have 10 turns to get some xbows ready.
    I spawned a GEng at 70% odds and settled him.
    Still lacking sailing+compass. Things are not looking good, but at least I'm alive.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler Loss again! :

    I reach optics sometime around T130-T140, and start meeting other civs T144, but everyone has everything, even poor little Rosy who is crushed by Mansas culture which is pushing him out in the sea.
    So I have to self-tech alfa and do tradeback with Monty.

    Astro sometime around T150 and then I start to scheme to overturn Monty, I load up my closest city with spies and intend to wait untill he DoWs me, and when he takes my city I'll first steal every tech he has (Castles all around the empire ofcourse, +25% espionage and an extra intercontinental traderoute), and then smash his SoD with countless trebs.

    Unfortunatly, Monty has his own plans, and can only get a small part of my preparations in order. I retreat from this city eventually, and steal my way to fortune (Can't get anything from Monty that the other guys have though.) Retreat to the capital
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    I whip trebs and some other units like a madman while he bombards away the defenses of my capital, and when I finally have to retreat this is his army that parades into Babylon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    Trebs are ready to unleash hell opon his trapped SoD.
    The odds start at 77%, and only get better as I chew at him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    Unfortunatly, I had too few units. When the dust settles, my mopup army still only get 50% odds at best (Xbows), knights get 20% and swords somewhere around 20% too... :(

    I start to think that I gave Monty waaaay too much. The city gifts didn't do what I intended them to do.
    Even if I couldn't have settled cities myself, I could have put those hammers into some infrastructure at least....
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Might give it another go, fighting like a underdog is kind of fun!



    But...
    @AcaMetis
    Spoiler :

    Did you really have to load up the other continent with Mansa and WvO? :) Mansa had Rifling T160.
     
  14. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    Other than Monty, who I added specifically into the game to be your opponent (Bowman vs 5:strength: Swords is not a fair fight, as many have found out), I can't recall whether I added any of the other AIs deliberately or just left it random. I'm pretty sure at least one of the two was a random draw, possibly both. The focus this map was very much intended to be on Monty, with the other continent being nothing more than an afterthought. And despite noticing the Mansa/Willem combo IIRC I wrote it off as "not a problem" because my testing indicated that that continent would devolve into religious hell. And with Monty's land conquered the player could easily out-anything the other AIs tried to do. Worst case you've got :nuke:, so, you know, nuke 'em.

    ...At least that was my theory. It did not end up working so well in practice, as many have also found out. But that's the lesson I learned from this NC map :rolleyes:.
     
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  15. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    monty sure does go a bit overboard with his unit building... I think one of the necessary conditions for victory here is monty doesn't start plotting until after you've had time to get a few bows out. getting the DOW when you're ~5-6 turns from being ready is annoying as hell. I don't really think it's worth trying to get him to friendly with gift cities though. It seems too hard to pull off in time, and if it only makes him pleased you've just given him less room to keep peacefully expanding :shifty:

    i'm also curious why you prioritize the fish so early. Is it to give Monty more room to reduce the chance he comes for you? I settled my second city on the corn/pig to unlock the corn for city#3, and so much food right off the bat felt like it helped a ton compared to my previous attempts. I was able to whip a barracks, get out one of the settlers, and even cold pop a few bowmen. it also saved me from teching myst/fishing for a little while, although you eventually need both for clams city anyways(and optics :D)


    e: my techpath was a lot different though. I went straight AH-Mining-BW(i think this is okay), and then pottery-masonry-hunting-archery. Pottery before masonry you can usually get away with on immortal, but if I was trying this on deity I would probably go for archery before masonry and skip pottery. I was definitely vulnerable for a bit, but the early BW meant as soon as I got archery I had all the production I needed
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
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  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @earthly
    Spoiler :

    Only reason I went for that cursed ocean fish is because it was the only way to claim the stone in reasonable time, you are right that there are many other better spots around.

    Two gift cities+religion usually is enough to get to friendly instantly, but I didn't think about that our war lost me both the +2 "Our open borders have..." and +2 "Years of peace has strenghten our relations", that with the fact that monty already starts at -1 or -2 with the player is what caused the trick to fail.
    He did get to friendly a while later, but at that stage he had already started plotting, and once the final peacetreaty wore of he just came at me. :)
    So yeah, absolutely a mistake basically just 200 hammers to boost Monty.

    If there was more happines resources around, and more possibilites to make a living w/o having pyramids, I think I would want to go AH->Pottery here, simply to get a few cottages down early, would be a huge boon for the techrate later on.
    Archery is not only for Monty though, barbs are brutal and if we move connecting horses in time can be problematic.



     
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  17. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    Immortal to 250 AD:
    Spoiler :
    Well, it seems I had better luck at first than a lot of folks did after reading some of this thread. It took a surprisingly long time for Monty to peek out of the jungle at me, and I had been busy fogbusting the south since I thought I might be full iso. Once he did come say hi, I let out a sigh and prepared myself for a slugfest. However, in my game Monty managed to get Buddhism, and sunovagun it auto spread to me! Long story short, we were both able to peacefully expand into 8 cities.

    I'm still working off the rust, so I'm POSITIVE I made some dumb choices, but I was really taking advantage of the stone and happiness resources with some huge cities and bajillions of failgold from mids/moai (ok, more like 800-900) and more to come in the near future from chichen itza/HG. I was merrily cruising through techs on my way to Liberalism, planning to take Nationalism at worst, MT at best, and run over Monty with Curriasiers, when he decided to declare on me.

    I knew he could declare at pleased, but I assumed that he wouldn't since we only shared 2 squares of border and was able to expand, so chalk this one up to my ignorance of AI behavior. His stack was pitiful, only 2 Jaguars and 2 Spears IIRC, but he was poised to take my city with even that puny army a turn after the DOW, and I just did NOT feel like dealing with whipping troops to retake a city and then completely changing my gameplan from teching Lib to whipping out a medieval army.

    It's a shame, the land was really good.
     
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  18. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    ahh dumb question I completely blanked on the stone. may I ask why you didn't try to get it with your capital? also I did try going without mids a few times and it's not fun. I guess you could make a case for monarchy(a bit of synergy since we need to station lots of troops incase monty attacks), but we just need soo many techs this game and delaying any of them is painful. going ah-pottery is nice because the worker can cottage immediately after improving the second pig, but whenever I tried that I just didn't have nearly enough production(and it feels awful whipping off cottages to get infrastructure)
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @earthly
    Spoiler :

    Yes, monarchy have abit of synergy with the situation. :)
    In more or less, this is like in isolation, and it's not that uncommon to go for monarchy in isolation when the happines situation is to dire.

    Generally in iso, you either go just straight for optics, or the aestethics route (the somewhat recent NC game with DeGualle is an example of that) or go alfabet if you have cities really hammer-heavy or calendar might be possible if there are slews of calendar resources around, or it's monarchy.
    The saying is that you can afford 1 of these classical techs, but not 2.


    I took your experience into account and played the map a pair of times more with abit different city placement and with AH->Pottery.
    First time around, Monty was as Gandhi and just left me all to my business and even spreaded Buddhism in all my cities, so that was no fun.

    Second time around was way fun, got DoW at T67, pyramids at T73 and optics at T134. Still no clue if this is salvagable or not, but it feels great to have a few mature towns around.

    Settled on that hill as it's on that hill, because that gets culture on the quarry T51 w/o having to compromise too much with cities.
    Production early was abit low, but OK. Second city got handed the pigs and the cottages and was put on workerduty.
    Finishing mines here and landing chops into pyramids just as stone is connected.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Monty shows up, but as I have not gone for the oasis city, I guess his pathfinding sends him here.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    Have not had time for walls yet, but he has about 2% odds or something here...
    Usually I just delete workers+warriors I steal to get higher war success, but here I keep it. If the warrior wins a ridiculus fight thats alot of XP, and war sucess is no issue in this situation.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    Now there is walls too, his best units got 2.1% odds, and his poor archer had 0.1% chance, but Monty doesn't care. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Here I'm getting the tradeoff-ratio I feel that I need to have a fighting chance. :D
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    He didn't do many big attacks in the east, and here he carelessly wandered in with some jaguars+spears without axes...
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    More sniping of weak melee units.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    Saw the first catapult T114, but now they start to come in masses.
    Just lost 3 axes in that forest 1N of Dur-Kur and retaliated to kill the wounded jaguar. This got me up to the third GGeneral and now I plant a city 2E of horses for peace.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    Situation at optics.
    I settled borsippa by the coast instead of on the hill mostly to be able to make some chops into Moai, but later a harbor will probably be nice too, health situation is not nice here.
    I was abit too greedy with Moai failgold, almost finishing it in all 3 western cities before completing in eastern Nippur, so optics could have come at least 3-4 turns earlier.
    I have the two GScis.
    And if this would have been full ISO, the slider would be at 0% now just accumulating gold to see what trades is available and what one has to self-tech. And I would spend hammers into infrastructure like harbors or forges (but here all forges are done).
    But now I'm just going to make a sprint toward construction. And apart from the settler in Nippur (one is pre-built in Dur-Kur) I think it's all units now.
    I HOPE monty will chill for abit but it's all too likely that he will come at me again right after the treaty is gone.
    The third caravel from Dur-Kur would be nice, but I think I'll cancel that built in favour of another xbow.
    Speaking of xbows... Perhaps the drill line is best here? Getting less collateral from his nasty catapults might be worth it?

    Monty was at 9 cities when we made peace (I gave him his 10th) and when I reached compass a few turns later he had HBR but not currency, so he is making wrong choices and will be backwards (phew!).
    He has also settled 3 more cities which I hope slows him down more for the time being.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG


    Oh, and the kill-loss count up to the peacetreaty:

    Lost: 6 bows, 4 axes, 2 warriors and a chariot.
    Killed: 24 jaguars, 23 axes, 18 spears, 10 archers and 5 catapults.

    So, a 7:1 ratio!

     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa I hope I don't steal any thunder, this is like the 7th attempt I do at this map and I'm basically playing with full map knowledge, this is just fooling around, exploring the theoretical possibilities of the setup.
    Spoiler Astro :


    T140, a full 3 turns after the peacetreaty is over, Monty couldn't stand me anymore. I take advantage of the fact that he sends in his initial stack w/o any longbows, xbow get a free lunch attacking catapults at 80-90% odds. With only a few more catapults, it takes forever for him to bombard.
    This turn I also meet Saladin (Had met Mansas caravel before) he did not have optics so I begged 1g from Mansa (they where at war) and then trade optics+140g for alfa+aestethics.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    I meet the other dudes and get calendar and currency from WvO and Bismark, now it takes me 2 turns to selftech the rest of astro. (Should have put a turn into that earlier.)
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    He still only had one longbow in his stack, so I try to counterattack. The first xbow succeded in his fight and got renamed lucky bastard.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    The rest of the crowd kills all catapults and also slaughter some melee.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
    The map I got from the calendartrade got me circumnavigation, and Monty (now that he doesn't have any catapults) throws his entire stack away.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

    @ Astro, but before opening borders.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG
    After OB, 28 extra commerce!
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
    Settled these two cities too now, now I'll shop for some resource trades and astro-trades.
    Need engineering in a hurry so I can mount a counterattack and gain some balance with Monty before he catches up in tech.
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG



     
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