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Nobles' Club 215: Hammurabi of Babylon

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Oct 13, 2019.

  1. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Maybe I'll just give this a go on Immortal. I've seen a little bit of spoiler info, but not much that wouldn't be apparent after playing a handful of turns. Enough to determine i would be wasting my time attempting it on deity though.
     
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  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    This is why we need Lain to play this map. :D
    tbh, this map is probably quite a challenge for anyone on immortal too. Especially if one goes in blind and doesn't have map knowledge at all.
     
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  3. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Even with map knowledge, would you do things differently? I mean, very differently? Really not sure I would, if I were to replay it. That said, it is rather different to get DOWed in T70 vs T125-130.

    Would be cool to see Lain try out the map. But it probably depends a good deal on whether he has read something from this thread, and thereby acquired map knowledge or not. I know he has rejected maps before, because he checked out a spoiler of Nobles Club games for example.

    For those on YouTube tho, drop notes to him about this game, and maybe he'll check it out. Don't think he comes by us plebs in here much any more. At least he doesn't post much.
     
  4. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Good start.

    Spoiler :

    Have Pyramids + Monty at Friendly.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
     
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  5. Nick723

    Nick723 Warlord

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    Nice work! The good thing about getting Monty to friendly in this game is that he can’t really demand anything. Normally he’s a pain to keep at friendly but here:
    - you’re in his religion
    - there’s no one to stop trading with, declare on, etc
    - he takes forever to get alpha and currency
    - you probably want to trade him the resource he needs (horse) anyway
     
  6. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Cool, great start. What did he demand?

    This is quite an aside, but I wasn't aware this could go this high. Can it go even higher than +3?
    Small civ bonus.png
     
  7. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    He demanded Writing.
    Spoiler :

    I lost friendly for a little bit and got very worried. The +1 from the demand went away and i also picked up -1 from border tensions. I was trying to get Xbows in time to defend myself as he began to stack near my border and it would have likely been very close, but i just got back to friendly again as the -1 from close borders went away for some reason and i picked up another +1 from open borders going from +1 to +2.

    I've had to make a few interesting choices here.. things i wouldn't do in a plain ISO game. Monty was about to settle the NE pigs spot that i had a settler sitting next to but didn't want to settle. My capitol was due to get a border pop 1T too late to block him from settling which also meant that my capitol was going to be putting cultural pressure directly on his city tile the turn after he settled it and i definitely did not want that to happen so i had to settle the city myself. Not great, but better than the alternative.

    Also, he would've killed me on deity by now. I have very little doubt about that.
     
  8. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    An update from 1000AD. Not that far ahead, but in between migraine :cry: and war, it took a while.
    Spoiler :
    With a 10-turn peace treaty, we were safe for the time being. Did some trades and tried to make the most of what little I had on others, because guys like Mansa are teching about 4 times as fast. Sobering view once I got demographics view on him.

    Got the 2nd GScientist in T151, and bulbed Astro with a 2 :science: margin. Same turn I trade for Theo and Civil Service, and double-switch into Theocracy and Buro. No OR at all so far this game. Unusual. But now we can roll out CR2 Trebs, because we also researched Engineering and then bulbed with the unlucky GEngineer from earlier.

    Turn 153. Monty is up to no good, and I've moved the army from the east to the west. The peace treaty expires this turn (if you do it yourself).
    Spoiler :
    NC 215-T153 Monty stack.jpg

    I'm 99% sure he would have declared next turn anyway, and I was a little concerned about all those catas. Sure, I can counter with crossbows, but 83% isn't a sure thing, and some would probably die. So how about we invade him instead? Shame he cut down the forest and jungle right next to the city about 1 turn ago, but there is still the hill. And we have some guys as well :)
    Spoiler :
    NC 215-T153 My stack.jpg

    Admittedly a fairly risky affair if he throws all 11 catas at us, but would he really do that? :shifty:
    Spoiler :
    Yes. Yes he did!

    NC 215-T154 Battle result.jpg

    However, for some reason he only attacked with three regular units, which was a bit odd. He could have done some real damage there, as there weren't that many units left with half-decent health.

    Bombed away culture and healed for a turn, and was about to heal one more turn, so most units would be at full health. Then decided to have a go instead.
    Spoiler :
    Nice warrior city capture :lol:

    NC 215-T155 city capture.jpg

    That hurt him a lot, and we're essentially even. I don't expect much more fight from him.
    Spoiler :
    NC 215-T156 Power.jpg

    Yeah, he'll get Crossbows soon (faster than 9 turns), but we have the army to crush him now. Have stopped whipping, need to get the economy in shape, and with about 15 trebs, he probably can't do much. That mace in the stack was actually upgraded for 125:gold:. Very steep and maybe a waste (especially as a cat luckily took him down to 2.0 health), but I figured some extra stack defence was nice.

    In 1000AD Willem wins Lib, and unfortunately for me picks Astro, ruining the monopoly. Due to relations and Willem being Willem, I had little choice but to give up Astro at this point, altho I did nervously wait 1 turn, so I got one turn into Nationalism. Paid 150:gold: for it with Astro with Mansa, but it should be possible to use that further. Hoped to get Education for example with Astro, but I didn't dare to wait. Trades were still okay, though, and I got Guilds, Nationalism and 600-ish Paper beakers for it, plus some diplo points.

    Kinda risky to trade away Nationalism because it's on the path to Cuirs, but may be able to get Printing Press and possibly Education with it. Mansa and Roosevelt are still way ahead, but maybe I can catch up once all this land is captured and gets out of revolt. That will take a while, Monty still has 9 cities (he finally nabbed the barb city during the peace treaty), but it feels like he is broken. This is the current situation:
    Spoiler :
    Will probably swing down for Calix, then up to Teo on the coast, before moving to his capital. Second GG was used to upgrade some trebs and misc units, before freely upgrading the GGed Axe to a Mace.

    NC 215-1000AD war front.jpg

    Mansa is still at war with Saladin btw, and he also bribed in Bismarck. Would be fun to know what is happening there, but I can't imagine Saladin will have a bright future, being squeezed between those two, and a little backwards technologically.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Deity 300BC

    Spoiler :
    I remember I played this one some dozen of times maybe a year ago trying to avoid Monty from attacking but it never happened. Now I have almost forgotten everything but I have decided to fight it out. I settled by the river capturing both pigs. Powerful capital which can also share food.
    The second city was on the stone (killing the Fish) because I wanted the Mids (with psycho as the only neighbour no trades for happy resources or tech trades will happen for some time and happy and tech are a problem with war incoming). This is a slower start than Corn + Pigs location but it is important to get the Mids before T60 on Deity if you want to get them.


    The first wave:

    Spoiler :





    Well this went well. The Bowman is the best unit against Monty early attack (with Skirmishers).



    Lookee me putting that city on a hill into the Monty. :D No need to leave my capital exposed. Setting up the stage for the next wave. Also, notice 2 additional settlers being built. They are gifts. I intend to use one city gift to get peace from Monty and the other to get more liberation bonus. It should be +7 diplo.
    I eneded up getting the GG thanks to Monty's high unit courage and a suicidal jaguar. :D


    The second wave:
    Spoiler :






    Drill 4, CG1 on a hill does the job even not fortified. Gift the city for peace, get liberation bonus, trade something, finally, and gift 2nd city for more liberation bonus EXCEPT I did not get it. I do not remember why I can not not get liberation bonus for Opis, if osmeone knows do tell. Since it has taken forever for me to get the religion (actually a missionary from Monty) to get the religion, I will not be Friendly with him for a long long time. I have also forgotten how reli spreads. Maybe I need a trade route and visibility of his cities to increase the chance. If someone remembers, please help. Also, he did not demand anything as well. I will probably be at peace for 20-30T now (peace treaty and then at least one beg) and other continent is teching like crazy so Monty could find someone to hate when they reach us. But I wanted to be Friendly with him and tech together to parity. Now I would go back and try to get that religion some 30-40T sooner if possible, it would make thing super easy. I think this game is winnable form this position, but there is still some low probability DoW in 25T.

    I did not talk much about the economy this game because it is very Simple with Mids. Every city with some food is worth it as it can run 2-3 rep scientists. We have room for 9 and very good capital which should have its cottages developed as much as possible.
    From this position, I would say that Cannons+Grenadiers are the best option as they can last very long against tech superior units.

     

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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Nice play Shaka! :)
    I don't know mechanics for liberation but that with Opis baffels me...
    Perhaps @Kaitzilla knows?

    I don't understand religion spread either, but if there is anything one can do to increase chances of religious spread, I'm all ears!
     
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  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I'm almost certain that trade routes increase the chance of spontaneous religion spread.
     
  12. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Very interesting!

    It turns out that if you are war with an AI and they have a unit inside the big fat cross of the city, then the city loses the ability to (Liberate).
    This includes all military units, Scouts, Workers, and even Workboats.
    Spies don't appear to affect (Liberate).

    The problem in Shakabrade's game is that his Opis had a barb galley inside the big fat cross (permanently at war with barbarians). :sad:
    I pressed next turn 2 times, the galley sailed away, and I was able to (Liberate) Opis to Monty.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  13. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Wow, @Kaitzilla , you are the great prophet of this game. :worship::worship::worship:

    I am thinking about reloading now. Or rerunning the whole thing.
     
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  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I had forgotten just how much easier Immortal is than Deity until I started playing this map on Immortal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    It really is.
    I don't have the exact numbers of their bonuses in my head, but a late-game runaway AI is behaving in roughly the same manner though, so can't be that different.
    What plays a huuuuuge role though, is that second settler. The AIs really gets a flying start, AND that extra settler makes the barbs invade that much earlier, forcing the player to expend hammers to defense instead of expanding at the crucial early game.
     
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  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I replayed the whole thing with approximately the same approach.
    Spoiler :

    BTW, last game I got gifted Nationalism (Mansa, who else) around 300AD, but I decided to replay to see how reproducible the results with the same approach were.

    Got my Mids again. Religion still did not spread before the DoW. This time, the war was actually more difficult as Monty attacked Corn/Pigs/Oasis flatland city instead of my hill city. I ended up reinforcing both cities and had at least 6 Bowmen more than needed. This time gifted cities with no problem and got Monty to Friendly in short time. A barb city spawned on silver and I decided to suicide my troops against it to get at least some value back. Got 3 new resources. Lost an army and its upkeep. I put 2 of my extra Bowmen to the top edges of the continent to get some contact if caravels missed my landmass and I got contact with Germans like that while Mansa came to me directly. I had a trade chip in a form of Philosophy on Bismarck and traded for some stuff and then with Monty for a bunch of small fry.
    The current situation is totally winnable. The empire is in okayish condition for multiple attacks, can whip a lot, everyone will hate Monty so it is in our hands to decide whether he teches with us while we take the other continent or he needs to give us his empire. My situation looked like this even without an early DoW back in the days when I was less experienced and would still hustle the way into a victory. :D
    Since this was a replay, and I played this a year ago a well, I have no motivation to proceed, at least before I finish the Cookbook game.


    Spoiler :




     

    Attached Files:

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  17. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Only 4 hours to 680AD? That's nuts! :eek:

    Looks like a very strong game, and being Friendly sure takes care of a worry.

    Do you think going with an Academy here was worth it?
     
  18. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    I do not find it that quick. :D I am sure I have eaten a dinner and had a played with the kids during those 4 hours. :D
    Usually, I'll play up to two hours until 1AD as I am extra careful, and then quicker depending on the VC. TMIT would put the whole 1700AD Cavalry finish game in less than 2 hours of videos. See it if you do not believe it. :D

    Spoiler :
    I think Academy was worth it, it has a lot of time and cottages to repay itself as I was aiming for a longer game. But I am still not sure about Bureaucracy. If I had avoided it, I would have left the Astro bulb and Chemistry bulb open. Since we are not Phi and don't have marble wonders, and do have the stone, I thought that Oxford is ok here, Steel and Military Science are expensive and could use a help from the Oxford but also I can pivot into killing Monty with mounted units and then go into Industrial units to take out the tech leaders. Now this sounds like Academy and Oxford is a better deal, but maybe with the sole focus on getting Cannons and Grens earlier I could have captured a fantastic capital much sooner. Usually it is great to be aggressive, but when you all in it can backfire if you have crazy techer with railroads and no economy to close the gap.
     
  19. Nick723

    Nick723 Warlord

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    I haven’t had a chance to play on yet with my game. But interested in the other play throughs. Indeed deity is a different beast, I can only win with the easiest of starts so not going to try my luck here!

    A question on this, however. Do I correctly interpret this as you saying that you’d expand to 9 cities? In a typical iso game I’d stick to 4-6. Do the Pyramids make it worth going bigger?
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Nick723
    There is a whole thread dedicated to deity isolation. :)
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-isolation-workshop-stan-norm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/

    Short answer is that every game is unique, but if you have good and abundant land, there is more opportunity to delay.
    If you have a larger island (almost a continent of your own) that is green and lush with rivers, and if you in addition to that have the possibility for 2 offshore islands, then there is the question if beelining optics at all is best play.
    If your island is crappy, it can be a situation of desperation, you _need_ to find someone to smash and take their stuff to have any chance of winning.

    But regarding to this map:
    Spoiler :

    We are not in isolation, and circumstances dictate that optics/astro by necessity will be slow anyway (need to defend or befriend).
    So it makes more sense to play a longer game and develop more.
     
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