Nobles' Club 220: Pacal II of the Mayan Empire

[sampsa]

I wanted to find out if settling on the ivory would bring 3C but it's only 2/1/1.

"What you see is what you get" works here. No extra unimproved (the +1 is because it's on a river), no extra commerce when settled on. Btw if it was a plains ivory, pretty sure settling on it was best.

 

[krikav]

Deity, NH/NE. Reached BW but not AH for spoilers about strategic resources.

Spoiler T37 :

I move warrior SE, another clam. I decide to settle on stone and settle a quick second city where the settler started, there I want to chop out TGW. That way I get culture pressure inland and I also secure a nice third city.
I grow to pop2 because the period T1->T6 doesn't give me the exp bonus and because it lines up better with the arrival of BW.
Also I think it will be problematic growing later on since I'm postponing fishing abit.

I make a habit of always trying to maximize overflow whenever I'm going to stagnate on a pop (here pop2) that way I don't have unproductive food lying stagnant in the food bar.

Most times, you are just one hammer short, here it lines up perfecly. The overflow gives me the 11 hammers I need, then I get 7 hammers per turn due to exp bonus and being pop2. ^_^

T13 I find Qin, the bastard!! TGW thievering industrious wonderjunkie.

Settler at T27, revolt in transit. Two chops done, now I want a mine.

Capital took ivory+mine and started a worker, intend to whip this with enough overflow so it finishes a workboat. Second city will grow to pop2 and then work two riverside mines while two workers chop out TGW. Well... half-built it most likely as Qin will build it, but I'll get good failgold.
T31 he finishes the wall... What an *******. :'(

Oh well, a workboat is also a wonder of sorts. Hunting is just finished. I don't want to miss the opportunity for SH failgold now, so will juggle that around abit. Will make sure to put some hammers into holkas though so I'm sure I can whip them if I need.
Fogbusting is working out nice though, AIs swarming around everywhere.
At a total loss on what to go for now though... Make a try for pyramids? Early writing (AH->Writing) to bulb math and reach construction fast?
Won't need any wheel for a thousand years, but it's such a shame turning down exp granaries and riverside fin cottages too.

 

[earthy]

Spoiler t77 :

Mids finished in capital a few turns ago, and Mansa spread me some of that sweet sweet buddhism. Granaries are up in every city, and libraries are up in Chicken Itza and Lakamha with lighthouses soon to follow. Grabbed agriculture to farm the banana for a bit faster growth in the capital, and now I'm probably going to head towards priesthood/COL. I think I should probably delay switching to rep until I can do a double switch into caste(should have all the infrastructure I need in place by then).

In Chicken Itza I had put 27 hammers into a settler, planning to whip it and gift a city to Cyrus. With shared religion I'm not sure if that's necessary anymore. He has a few immortals that could ruin my day if he declares, but it shouldn't be long before we get +2 on the shared religion and he becomes pleased. I'm not sure if I want to finish it at this point. Alternatively I could finish it and gift it to Kublai. He doesn't have buddhism yet, and I'm the closest person that he's cautious with. For the time being he doesn't have OB with Qin so I'm safe however.

Really having to hold myself back from settling here. It would be so easy to tech aesth, get alphabet from mansa, trade for IW and build this thing up(getting the border pop might be annoying), but that's quite a commitment. I guess I'm just conflicted. Part of me wants to go kill everyone with elephants, but part of me wants to run a ton of specialists and bulb my way to cuirs. For the latter, I think this city would be worth it.

and ofc this happens t90

Spoiler :

oh how i hate you mansa

 

[sampsa]

@earthy

Spoiler :

I think it's absolutely correct to settle 5th city after you have Mids and not start bashing skulls. Well, unless you really want to. With such a great diplo situation it seems pretty safe to just get a military advantage. You need to acquire horses though. Not sure why Confucianism plays a role btw?

 

[earthy]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

I forgot to put my points on Mansa for a while, so the first time I could see what he was researching was that turn. I was just mad because I had planned on getting some good value out of COL, but because he got it on the same turn I could only get a few small techs(alpha, IW, etc).

And I'm running a few artists in the stone city to try to reclaim that horse, but I'm not super familiar with how plot culture works. When it reaches over "50% Maya" do I get it back? I had it for a little while but it's back in his culture now.

 

[sampsa]

@earthy

Spoiler :

In the long run I don't think you'll ever win your 2nd ring vs his 1st ring. You need to get it via trade or by force. Of course you can go for some late elepult action... Or war at engineering.

 

[sampsa]

T75

Spoiler :

Since Qin appeared to lack metal and was only founding jungle cities (unlikely to claim iron) I started to like the idea of HAs. 4th city slows my attack date though, could have gifted a city to Kublai of course, but meh. Beiijng has GLH, GW, SY... He is just cutting jungle and most of his cities don't have much . What could go wrong?

 

[earthy]

Spoiler up to t107 :

Traded COL to Cyrus & Kublai for alpha, IW, Needed a bit more tradebait so I teched aesthetics, and with that I got 300g from mansa, and brokered everything else around for math, metal casting, currency, and then monarchy.

Bulbed philo with the first GS, and finished CS 250BC. Took the turn of anarchy to switch into bureau/pacifism.

While teching CS I got a look at Mansa's land and threw up a little bit. This shouldn't be allowed.

I wonder if I could just...

I go for it because everyone else has all of those techs, and at the very least it keeps him from plotting on me and forces Mansa to build some units. Kublai will probably be my last target anyways since he's not a great techer and in the opposite direction from where I want to go, so I'm not too worried about boosting him. I doubt he'll wipe Mansa out either because the distance means Mansa has plenty of time to prepare, and without cats Kublai won't get through skirmishers. Mission seems to be success because a few turns later Mansa swaps to slavery/theocracy.


Here's the cities & tech situation @ t107. Economy is really starting to come online.

And here is the one issue with the Cuirassier plan.. My culture on that horse tile has climbed from 20% up to 35% since I started running the artists/built the monastery, but I don't know if that means I'll get it back. Might have to scrap the culture plan and just slowbuild a few elephants to take that city while Mansa and Kublai are distracted. A bit annoying when I'm in caste/pacifism, but he only has a few archers there so I should probably prioritize this now before they upgrade to LB's and it becomes twice as annoying..

 

[Pedro78]

What could go wrong?

Spoiler :

With every single city on flatland, I'd say not much, but there's still a chance that he trades for iron, and every major city will have walls. So you'll have to abuse of ceasefires, even if it means a few extra diplo hits with Mansa.
It's probably best to only grab his 4 main cities and make peace for some tech so you can focus on Cyrus, who looks like he's mostly on flatland, too (now I wish I hadn't looked at these spoilers, and had actually played the map, this one's like a child's dream).

Tech wise, Construction is top-priority, but getting your hands on Alpha would be nice too. Long-term, bulb Philo for Taoism+Paci+Trades then go for Optics? A Palace move to Beijing may be in the books too, SY looks neat. OTOH, being FIN and having great land like this might make spies redundant. Really depends on Mansa's tech pace.

 

[sampsa]

T95

Spoiler :

this one's like a child's dream

Mop up a stack of 4chariots+archer, no losses so far. My Holkan is 1T too late to protect the city, but he has only some stray chariots.

Might have lost one here, don't remember... Now he's obviously done, another small stack took Nanjing (the city closest to me) this or next turn. He has calendar that nobody has, but I decided to just wipe him out immediately. Dunno why though, nobody will have feudalism in 10T to peace vassal him I guess. Kublai and Qin will give -1 for 2nd declaration of course and there is some motherland whining, but it's manageable.

Lost 5 units in the war, captured 6 cities and 6 workers, GLH+GW. Scotland Yard might be useful if I want it to be. Think I have a fair shot at HG too. I'm a bit of a wuss when playing deity, I'm sure I could have gone construction to just take more cities. Planning to go CoL just for trade value (confu founded elsewhere) and maybe expand more at engineering.

Kublai is the only threat so trying to keep him backwards.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T50 :

I decided that the cow wasn't worth early AH, and that I would probably get AH in time for pigs anyway (turns out I was abit wrong on that) so decided to go TW->Pottery early on. Riverside cottages and exp granaries where too yummy to turn down. (Kind of wish we where not pacal for this start.)
Capital is growing slowly and gets to slow-build it's granary, Lakamba has just 1popped it's granary.

I rushed a chop early on into SH, as I lost any possibility to failgold with TGW, but SH went super late at T47 so I got 86 failgold from that.
Have not finished a Holkan yet, the AIs are taking care of all barb troubles. <3

Not sure what I should do with Lakamba, I wanted to whip a library there to claim the forest under culture, but now when Qin settled in my face I'm wondering if I have to get a monument for that.
Will try to build pyramids there, but perhaps just gifting stone to Qin and sprinting toward construction is better?

 

[Pedro78]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Looks like your HAs had a walk in the park. Could probably still kill both Cyrus and Mansa with WEs, but with 10 cities + GLH at T95 you don't lack options.

@krikav

Spoiler :

perhaps just gifting stone to Qin and sprinting toward construction is better?

Word. Pyramids will only slow you down here.

 

[krikav]

This map is ridiculus, and my luck even more so.

Spoiler T84, tbc to T88 :

Cyrus went for a very early alfabet. I couldn't get sailing I started to look around abit.
And with Qins gem city on flatland, and him boasting about chariots, I decide to trade for archery and just make a go for it.
Right away, I also gift Qin my stone and start to build barracks in lakamba instead of pyramids. The library at 40/90 in Mutal is also put on hold for barracks.

Qins homeland is flatland Heaven. T67 he build GLH in Bejing.

He is most likely building pyramids.

And he builds scotland yard with the GSpy he popped. He is really inviting to a feast!

Have enough beakers into alfa that Cyrus want to trade for HBR.
I trade nothing now, but next turn Mansa asks for HBR, I refuse but then trade alfa for IW with him. Kublai I give alfa for free to get up to pleased.

T75 I see that pyramids is at 450/500 Hammers in Bejing, so I cancel the stone deal and put an overflow from a HA whip into that for abit of failgold. Should probably have done that abit more.

Mansa finally gets a missionary to me, I revolt to Buddhism and Qin into rep. I get a failgold injection.
I tech sailing sometime around here too, which was a mistake. After sailing I start teching currency since Mansa is teching that, with the intent of getting currency for HBR.
I ignore math because I don't have any forests anymore, and Qin has Math and I have alfa, I hope he will give me math in a while.

Just when I'm about to strike, disaster happends. Mansa is hungry for bananas and give my target iron. >_<

But no Bananas for mansa!
Only two archers in Shanghai, and I luck out and both c2 HAs withdraw at their 45% or so survival odds. Pillage the other banana.
I beg Mansa for 5g (success), and beg for Kublais cow, but he refuses...

Land ill defended. I'm going for his capital. The scouting warrior was guarding the copper spot and was intended to pillage it if Qin got culture there or settled around there. That warrior goesinto Shanghai and I pay 80g for a 0xp holkan at the front.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T88 :

Qin wants a ceasefire (or wants to give me agri for peacetreaty). Still only two archers in capital so I make a go for it.

Both HAs not only survive their 45% odds, but WIN their fights. 10-20% chance...?
This gets me too greedy though.

Moving reinforcements in so I can threathen both cities. Have 1popped the HAs in cities to completion and want to revolt to rep next turn.

All HAs injured. I was a moron not to take a ceasefire right away here.

Qin serving my holkans some lunch. Confu founded in Ectobana so there is a good chance there will be religious rivalry between Cyrus and Mansa. Good!

I'm still to stupid to get a ceasefire. Qin is whipping archers every turn and I think about minor diplo hits with the others. >_<
Heat of the battle makes thoughts hazy.

I move here to threaten a third city and hope to lure out archers from their cities.
(Notes inaccurate now, many more archers in both cities.)

I capture a nasty jungle crapcity, and lack one HA to snipe that chariot that is escorting 4 workers (!).
Then it finally dawns upon me that I'm not getting anywhere with just HAs when qin is whipping PRO archers behind walls.
I get peace for Math and agriculture, and will now go for construction.

Now I get to resume that library at 40/90 hammers in the capital....

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Good job rushing the jungle over claiming your copper, Qin. Brilliant plan, it worked out well for you .

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T100 :

I send HAs out to scout under the peace treaty. Work on some failgold on gardens in Shanghai because it had two forests and an aqueduct.
T96 I reach construction and get 360g from mansa for it.

I use my GGeneral on 4 HAs that will reach combat3, and attach it to the one I pomoted with medic earlier. It won't make a super medic of it, but I'm thinking I can place it and another unit with the next GGeneral, boosting it 10xp. It can also do some mopup duty.
The combat3 guys are important though.

Learn me how to use your calendar resources please!

He is such a nice guy, not building walls.

I get 6 workers this turn. Good, since I have only built 3 of my own.
That HA near Xian goes and scout his last southern Jungle city, it has an axe in it!!
Apparantly Kublai have also gotten a taste for bananas.

I get 60% odds against the archers too. Decide to chance here but lose too many fights and leave a injured archer and a chariot standing.
I also 2pop whip Gardens in Shanghai. Nice with a culture shield against Mansa, and 1 pop in every city is really nice.

I finish this city off.

Peace for metalcasting.

Now I'm rather unsure of how to proceed, but I think the safest approach is to finish currency start teching toward machinery engineering somehow.

Ignore the two northern guys, they are likely to splinter into different religious groups sooner or later and be at each others throats. And they are small and no threat.
Kublai on the other hand... 13 cities! With the land available I think he is the largest threat in this game.
He will have well promoted war elephants too, so I probably need pikes to take him on?

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Kublai on the other hand... 13 cities! With the land available I think he is the largest threat in this game.

Those intimidated by the sight of 13 cities Kublai Khan might wish to read what edits were made to this map, by the by. There's a question in there that I would like answered...

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Thats nice play! Two more cities and Qin of the board T95, compared to my T100.
You seem to have had more steam up when attacking, did you whip very hard, or was it perhaps that you had four cities that got you going stronger longer?

Speaking of whipping, how did you whip here? I found it somewhat difficult to handle overflow as it screws up subsequent HA-whips. I did put some into holkans, and also one OF into pyramids.

I too was worried about diplo hits from redeclaring, I think this is a false worry. If we can get more land easier and with fewer causalties and get strong enough, caring about what the other AIs think shouldn't be that high up in prio.

 

[sampsa]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Great minds think alike. Of course, hitting his core is quite obvious once you see that it's very lightly defended. I didn't think of gifting the stone, Mids is certainly a huge prize. In my game Mansa got it T68 (8T earlier than Qin in your game), so maybe you were a bit lucky there, too.

Looking at autosaves... I certainly didn't whip hard. No 1-pop whips. No stables, not even barracks in capital and 4th city. I did get a -trade from Mansa, but didn't really even stack much whip anger. I think 4th whipped two HAs only, so not of much value.

T87 I saw I'm winning so hard that I produced only one more HA. Western front has a safety holkan, 5HAs that need 1T of healing to be close to max health and two chariots (one with 5xp for medic). Nanjing area has 6HAs, holkan (medic), GG, archer to arrive T88. I had lost 4 HAs so far, so 15 total produced (and two chariots, two holkans). Had killed 12 archers, 10 chariots. How do your numbers compare with this?

My tech path was strange and probably just very bad, trying to get whatever semi-useful tech that I can get trade value from. Well, also now with marble literacy is tempting. Nobody went math (I'm the only one having it) so I went aesth to trade these two around.

Anyway, I guess the real question was how to handle whip overflow. Mostly I was just shuffling those mines (I had one more due to city placement!) around and 2-pop whipping when growing to a weak tile, OF into another HA (only one exception I think, OF completed my only archer since wanted another 2-pop whip soon). On what turn did you start HA production? I didn't have masonry or agri and had HBR+archery T72.

 

[earthy]

strange how different starting location changes so much

Spoiler regarding metal :

in my game Qin had both copper and iron because my inland capital made him settle differently.