Nobles' Club 220: Pacal II of the Mayan Empire

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler T85/T86 screenshots and situation :

Before the fall of bejing.

T85, Right after taking Bejing
At this point, I had not suffered any causalties and had killed 4 archers.
I think that the main issue is that I had so many HAs in the west at very low HP. Promoted a medic one but they are not ready to fight. Since there was a chariot in Guangzhou I didn't dare leave Bejing undefended either.

Eastern front there is 4 fresh HAs making a bypass through the jungle toward Guangzhou. Two just out of the gates, but no more in the immediate pipeline.
Seeing this now, I think that the problem is that I had to strike a few turns premature, and that was because Qin had just traded his bananas for iron, I had to run in and pillage that asap.

I think I picked of some stray chariots here before the peacetreaty. And taking Xian which was badly defended.
So I had much lower kill rates and less HAs too.
Will look at when production started.
Could be fun to replay the buildup here, see if one can optimize something!

 

[krikav]

@earthly That would change the game radically!

 

[AcaMetis]

It's not just city placement that changes things, either.

Spoiler :

In my test game I settled in place and had Cyrus found Hinduism. Was honestly surprised to see Buddhist lovefests in every other game, truth be told.

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Here HBR is in, have archery already. Whipped barracks in two cities last turn.
If I did anything wrong here, it was going for alot of stables. I had stables in all 3 cities. One would have been enough. (Lakamba, who gets the chops).
(Gold became availabe for trade this turn too).

 

[sampsa]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Yep, one stable tops IMO, even zero is possible. Since he doesn't have metal really the value of 2nd promotion goes down. Yes you will lose one HA per spear/sword, but you can manage that. It would be of huge value to hit Nanjing and core at the same time, stripping his production to only two cities, since jungle ones aren't contributing for him yet.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler Playing with hindsight :

Just tried the buildup again, when you have a target attack date it's easier to take it abit chill first and work more mines, and whip more heavily toward the end.
Got two stables here though, couldn't get the whipping to work otherwise.

This is abit unfair since the attack is a turn later (or two?). But here is 10 HAs on the western front instead of 8, although 3 are only at 3xp.

And I probably have enough to take this right away too. 5HA ready to strike, another one next turn, and two holkans are jumping in.
Compared to in my game where I had 3, none of which where ready to strike that turn.
Game radically different too, Cyrus did not found confu and Kublai is plotting.
Would not want to have had this instead!

 

[sampsa]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Nanjing at 20% (no walls) means that even unpromoted HAs have good odds. Remember that some 30% of my troops were 0xp at the start of the war and it didn't stop me from rolling over him.

Oh in my game Shangai was 20%, which was certainly very lucky and also his "stack" camping at ivory was good fortune for me as I was able to wipe it out instantly after taking Shangai with no losses.

 

[earthy]

Spoiler up to t158 :

Nationalism comes in at 25AD. T114 Qin spawns a great merchant, and I give up philo for the money + calendar. Since Philo is out of the bag, I cash in next turn with Mansa for construction+HBR and start building elephants. I double bulb education then self tech gunpowder, and trade mansa nationalism for compass and music so I can finish lib with a bulb @ 375AD. Felt really dirty making that trade but it saved me quite a few turns of teching.

I use a GA from the stone city to start a golden age, and manage to get just enough culture to momentarily grab the horse back on t135. Guess we'll have to cancel those catapults!

I trade Cyrus music for 420 gold and put him into caste/pacifism, then upgrade a few elephants with his gold. Attack comes in at t142, where I immediately take Pasargadae and Susa.

I position the remaining Cuir to threaten two cities, and on turn T145 I take both of them. All newly whipped Cuir go to Susa to take his last city on t146.

Around T144-145 that bastard Qin calls an AP end the war vote, and with +5 unhappiness in all of my cities my production comes to a complete halt. Can maybe get one cuirassier out every few turns. Really not good.

After finishing Cyrus I reposition in Susa to attack Qin. My army is much smaller than I'd like it to be and lots of cuir blood will be shed, but there's no sense in delaying at this point. My situation won't get any better. I declare T150 and take Xian on T151, then heal a turn before attacking Guangzhou

Shanghai and Beijing will have too much culture/defenders for my small and weakened army, so I pick off the cities to my southwest and force a capitulation. Unfortunately before that happens he calls another stupid end the war vote, so the unhappiness lives on. Cities & Happiness situation @ t158:

I don't want to delay hitting Mansa for too long, but with only 20 cuirassiers(and many being used for MP), I may have to delay a few turns until I can whip some more in my new cities. Also a bit worried about Kublai being bribed in, since I already used my beg on him. I also noticed I forgot to rework the food sharing during the whips, so my capital has plenty of happiness but isn't growing.. Dumb mistake.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Was it not feasible to take a cease-fire and avoid the AP votes? I think the diplo penalty from multiple DoWs would be less problematic than your war machine grinding to a halt because of unhappiness.

 

[krikav]

@earthly

Spoiler :

That doesn't look too shabby! The AIs cities are yours and you seem to dominate still.
At that stage of the game, cities are not the epicenter of the empire, the army is. Be carefull not to throw it away while cities are malfunctioning.
It might also be possible that it's best to just hold now. Both Mansa and Kublai is pleased with you (and I guess their relationship with Qin is also good?)
I would continue to whip out units (and theatres at that point too) and fiddle with the culture slider, starving down pop is really really bad and must be avoided!

A convenient way is to before you start an attack, let a AP-vote pass, that way you know you have 10 turns of free reign. Once the next vote is drawing near, you should if you can do a ceasefire.
Very easy to forget, and difficult to intrepret though.

Does razing the AP city make the anger go away...?

 

[earthy]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Ceasefire was never an option since the votes were called almost instantly after the wars began. No one was willing to talk

@krikav

Spoiler :

I felt a bit rushed to get in on Cyrus before he got out too many pikes, maces, etc. Waiting a few turns probably would have been worth it though. Theatre's would be nice, but in a few of my core cities I don't think anything can save them short of waiting out the AP unhappiness. They can't even work a single tile at size 3 . Not sure if razing the AP does get rid of the unhappiness, but I kind of want to keep that city. It's also the buddhism holy city so that shrine is going to be realllly nice. Qin controls the AP right now, so maybe he'll call a vote soon to stop trading with Monty or something(Kublai colonized an island). Google tells me that if you take part in a vote that passes the anger goes away, and that would sure be nice.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T124 (All AIs known now) :

I just started to growing my cities and tech.
With both GLH and Pyramids further warfare and whipping didn't make much sense, built some stray units here and there (some whips for overflow into wonders that was available)
This was abit too tempting though... I didn't dare strike this turn, but waited until next turn for Kublai to have some gold at hand, and when the beg succeded I just took Ectobana with HAs and stationed my army there. I don't have the military muscle to press further in though so the war is still on at T124.

T108 I get a GSpy which I settle in Bejing (Scotland yard)

Tech to optics after machinery, and once caravels are whipped i revolt to caste system (caste-rep lacking tech for other civics).
Then mass scientists in Pig city (had been running two scientists there to build points a long time).
Half teched astro since I have no chance of getting another buld in time.

Intercontinental routes are nice with GLH. Cyrus has MoM in his capital so think I'll just slow build some units and take his cities.
Have traded abit with Kublai so he has been boosted, might be to strong to strike conviniently.
If I start with Mansa and take Djenne I have the holy buddhist city, and with the cottagespam I have done perhaps building alot of spies and running city revolts in Kublais land while cuirs/cavalery run rampant there could work out.
Might go abroad for some warfare too though... Have to think abit about this.

Just got two thirds of CS for optics from mansa this turn. Sitting Bull has no religion so he will most likely become a Buddhist although there is confu in one of my cities too (the holy city), I think Saladin founded Judaism too, (did see cities of his with hindu+tao), so SB will likely get buddhist. He is also quite far away.

 

[earthy]

Spoiler up to t191 :

I wait a bit for the AP anger to go away(it seemed like half went away when Kublai was voted in) and then scouted out mansa. He had a bit of an army in his capital, but nothing we can't deal with

Positioned the troops to take Kumbi Saleh and bait out a response. Really didn't want to attack that army in his heavily cultured cities. He sends most of it to retake Kumbi Saleh, and I wipe them out in the open and then take Timbuktu.

awe yeah, that's what we were after

After losing Timbuktu he bribes in ol' Kublai on me, but that was expected so I had already routed my new units to defend for that. Kublai sends in knights and siege units piecemeal, which I gladly grab free XP from. Within 2-3 turns I take Mansa's other cities, and Kublai gets tired of war and calls an end the war vote. This one I will happily vote for.

So now I'm (rather slowly) teching steel, lightly whipping off coastal tiles, growing where I can, and preparing to finish the game with cuirs+cannons. I could probably just pull it off with cuirassiers(I've got 36 near his border, another 8 fighting off revolts near Qin, and maybe 5 more playing MP), but Kublai has gunpowder so waiting for steel seems like a much safer play. I don't expect he'll have rifles anytime soon as he doesn't even have paper.

 

[earthy]

Spoiler 251(end) :

T208 I declare on Kublai and send my death stack towards him, with the intention of splitting it into two after the first city. He puts up a fierce resistance, and after leaving defenders behind I don't have enough cuirs to safely form two stacks, so I keep these guys together and make a new stack out of reinforcements.

I thought that was the bulk of his army, but not even close.. The next city I attack is even worse. Thankfully these CR3 cannons do some serious damage

Even his "lightly defended" cities have like 15 units. He's definitely not making it cheap.

I chug along slowly, and having checked the victory conditions screen I know I need all of his land for the dom. Just incase I start whipping galleons for monty. The going is really slow because of this guys culture(sometimes 3-4 turns between cities -,-)

finally I take his last city t239, wipe out monty t250, then grab the domination with border pops on turn 251(immortal)

(ignore time played, I left the game open overnight)

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

I'm not regretting my decision to swap Kublai and Mansa's starting positions. 15 cities Kublai means tons of heavily promoted mounted units to chew through, but chew through them someone with a key military tech lead can do. 15 cities Mansa Musa would have just been awful. Especially with the continent going full Buddhist lovefest in most situations, that'd just be an absolute nightmare of a tech situation.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T168 :

I was under the impression that with this much land, and with both pyramids and GLH I could just build up in peace and then go police state and roll over everyone. By the end of this turnset, I'm not so sure anymore...
I traded nationalism with Mansa, and started building Taj, I saw he was building something big, and was greatly relieved when he finished verseies.
Here I have just finished Taj myself.

It's a quet phase now, I don't need to tech for a while, so I prepare by trading for banking and running caste+pacifism during the GA to get some GPersons out, I want to take MoM from Persia and run alot of those.
I also go into nationalism and go full espionage slider on Kublai.
I won't need this for a very long time, but I figured it would be nice to get that overwith when I had the chance to run with +25% bonus.

Disaster, Mansa peaces-vassales to Kublai.
Don't remember the order, but my slowburning war against Cyrus ended with a AP vote, will do a warmup against him with cuirs soon.
But with Mansa as a peace vassal the Kublai situation got even more complicated. >_< Now I will have two fronts to worry about when I start, and me and Mansa share a long border.
Kublai is plotting, but I'm almost 100% sure it's not against me, I have been dropping out and in of friendly and have had peace treaty with him on and off. Likely he wants to kill Cyrus or some of the dudes abroad.

Bejing has spawned 3 GSpyes now. It's no doubt the wrong decision to continue to settle them when I could use them for GA-fodder, but simultanioulsy it is too fun to pass up.

The GA draws to an end, and I enter my favourite civics. Got a GMerchant and shipped him to Mecca for 1900g!
In the haste, I also upgraded my super medic HA into a cuir too, so he will likely die a horrible death somewhere down the line.

My sloppines allows Cyrus to die a honorable warriors death.

The HA i attached a GGeneral too (the second one, with the main goal to boost the Medics Xp by 10) dies at 90%+ odds.

Goodbye Cyrus! So sorry I stole your horses in the beginning!

And of all the million times Mansa has gone for physics and assembly line before rifling... This time he goes for rifling early on.
With some luck, Kublai won't manage to tech something worthwhile for mansa to trade with. Have to keep an eye on that and possibly just give Mansa tech for free just to prevent that.
I steal rifling from him cheaply though at 1200espionage points price.
Kublai declared on Sitting Bull, so I think I'll just stay put and build up an absurd ammount of cavalery so I can blitzkreig away Qin and Mansa and stall Kublai and hopefully get a peace treaty after that.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

I'd say Mansa learned a valuable lesson from Qin's lack of early metal in your game, @krikav .

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis I say he has learned even more! Played a few more turns now:

Spoiler T173 :

Perhaps is was Kublais decision o DoW Sitting Bull, or perhaps the arrival of Augustus that made Mansa realize that he have had enough of that silly Master.
It was a very welcome suprise though!
Good thing that I had 4700 EP on Kublai, now I have 4700EP on Augustus too! Not sure I can use them for anything though...

Right away, I get Mansa out of the war, to make it less likely that he will re-vassal to Kublai.

Two turns later, with Cavalery starting to stack up at his borders, Mansa realize what is brewing for him and make a very sane choice!

This city is very glad for the breathing room! Have to rush some garissons here now though, didn't bother earlier.

Now I'll likely DoW Kublai in a few turns, with Mansas rifles that are likely to start marching toward him I will be able to pick and choose fights as I like.

 

[Pedro78]

Was tempted to see how a full war-mode approach would work on this map. Just a couple of screens and a save, a bit lazy to write-up right now.

Spoiler :

War with the Mongols is a bit annoying, but couldn't do anything about it. But 20 cities before 1AD should make up for it. And catching up will be incredibly easy with all the spy bonuses against Mansa once I beat him down and capture his holy city. If it weren't for Skirmishers, it would probably have been possible to take the whole north with just HAs.
Micro got really sloppy after the Qin war (could have the second gems improved by now, built too many Holkans..). I'm also unhappy with my settling decision. Going inland is usually wise on a high-seas map, but here getting the pigs in the BFC would have been far superior, and would have allowed for a more efficient city placement (both of which are visible on T0). Killing a clam you're not going to use for dozens of turns shouldn't be such an important factor in the initial settling decision. This mistake set me back a good 3-5 turns, and might be the difference between facing Skirmishers or Longbows.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T196 :

I was ready to strike T175.

First I swap my own civics to rep+nat+caste+free+paci, and then I do some trading. Chem+economics for constitution with August, then I sell economics for cash to the crowd, except kublai, who I also adopt rep+pacifism. I want him to have good civics to have when I attack, and anarchy is also nice.

My spies have a hard time getting into position in time, but most fights are in the 70-90% range so I just steamroll on.
Here I move all available units as far toward Turfan as possible.

Then a ceasefire, want to heal a few turns and here I got a tiny bit of free movement forward for some units too.
Mansa the Moron is running 100% culture, I had him teching communism so I could steal it from him, but now I have to self-tech it.

Wanted to see how many turns he had before rifling, but it turns out he had other plans. He wants some steampower!

Next attack:

And next ceasefire... This burst I had spies ready too, which reduced losses to almost nothing.

At it again... Perhaps it helps that he is at war with SB? Perhaps that makes ceasefires easier? Spies are finally catching up and doing their job.

This is after the last ceasefire.
Mansa has had his units moving back and forth, back and forth. "Come on Krikav! Make up your mind!!"
Funny also that poor kublai never reached steam power. The road to ruin is rapid.

Reaching the ocean, and my army weeps because there are no more land to conquer.