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Nobles' Club 223: Brennus of the Celts

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    thanks for the tips! going crazy with cottages did seem good here with all the happiness, but the machinery/engineering bulb looks fun too! And maybe it's even better, since you have more land and a nice army around the same time. It's especially nice getting to make a move earlier before the era bonuses kick in and suddenly you blink and everyone has rifling :goodjob:. One thing I was pretty happy with in my game was the pig steal from Vicky. It cost me -0.15 gold for 15 turns until the pig came online(2.25 gold), and 4 worker turns, but I got some great land and free pigs without having to tech AH. It also snagged the marble so the spice city could have more optimal placement on the PH. With tons of production and very little commerce to research stuff like AH, I feel like that has to be worth it. If you don't mind a couple more small questions, how would you recommend I go for promotions? Judaism spread + theocracy, or maybe stables or vassalage? Also hard building Taj is probably not worth it right? One thing I'm still not used to is prebuilding horse archers with good promotions..

    I checked your game out as well, and that Saladin religion stuff was really weird. I also got a good chuckle out of Toku switching to hinduism. Go figure he doesn't pick the religion everyone is in :crazyeye:. That settler gift to cause tensions was also a really cool idea. I was lucky in my game and Zara did it on his own accord, trying to steal toku's iron and then capturing the barb city to the east. Your army also looks pretty deadly for this time in the game... Wouldn't want to be the ai right about now :D



    @DoowMas

    Spoiler :
    For your first few games it's looking pretty good! Capital placement was great, initial tech path solid, but like Krikav said you should be a little more careful about how far you settle, and settling food in the first ring. Also keep in mind that rice is one of the lowest tiers of food resources. If it has fresh water it'll give +5 food, but without that it's a really mediocre 4 food tile. Corn and pigs are really nice, but since we already have to research agriculture to improve the corn we don't really want to research another food tech early on for the pigs. This pretty much means we want to focus on the corn tiles early, as well as cottages to get our economy going
     
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  2. DoowMas

    DoowMas Chieftain

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    Thanks for the input @krikav @earthy I’m 100% taking notes!

    Two quick questions I would like to ask, nothing which will spoil this game so I won’t spoiler alert it, without trying to take up too much of your time;
    1. You mentioned bad city placement. What constitutes a good city placement? What should I be looking for other than the obvious? (food).
    2. I understand that chopping speeds up production by providing hammers to the city. My issue is not knowing what to chop out and why I would need to. What are the general priorities that are worthy of chopping? I can only imagine I’m wasting forests if I’m just chopping out warriors, for example.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @earthly
    Spoiler :

    I'm a sucker for medieval warfare so I like this alot slogging around at 0% research with a ton of units in severe tech disadvantage is just the way I like my civ games.
    With this approach if you get enough land it's even possible to just continue to roll over them up until they get infantry, then it's a brick wall.

    Regarding promotions... I don't know really, so many nice options.
    You seem to have things pretty nicely set up for burocracy, but with spi it's possible to jump in and out abit too.
    You can for example be in bur+slavery+orgreligion, whip buildings (market, grocer, bank?) and then swap to vass/theo roll over overflow into units.
    Or you can put a turn into many units (pike, mace, musket, treb) and whip them while in bur, but keep them in the queue and only release them when in vass/theocracy.
    In your case you have at least HAs and Elephants available for this trick, and possibly stock up for some future city defenders too.

    Flank is usually looked down upon, but with CHA it's quite common to get units with 7xp out of the gate, and one withdrawal jumps that to 8xp which is kind of nice.
    Timings are always hard to judge, but I would rather want to attack sooner than later.
    Vass+theocracy does give you +4xp which is already two promotions.
    Perhaps utilize that and forgo all barracks and all stables is optimal play.

    Pretty sure it would be better than going all bananas with both barracks+stables and both vass/theo for 9xp and only one more promotion.

     
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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @DoowMas
    1. Nothing more than that obvious, food.
    Other resource specials are nice too though. Settle with food resources in the first ring and you have done right in 90% of situations.

    2. Ofcourse it's possible to overchop, and waste forest into uncessery things. But default mode should be "How am I going to make all these latend hammers standing around live as quickly and as efficient as possible?" Chop everything down early and get an early advantage that continues to yield.

    It's more common to chop into workers/settlers, so that the cities can spend the maximum amount of turns harvesting food into their food bars and growing, (because it's efficeint to whip away population with slavery).
    But not all cities are equal. In some cities you have low production and high food and in those cases it might make sense to chop infractrucure instead. (Granary and in some cases library.)
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @DoowMas
    I have a "rule of thumb" that a worker is yielding me 5hammers per turn when it's active. (4 turns to chop a 20H forest)
    A settler is yielding 4 hammers per turn when it has settled. (City center gives 2F +1H free, and it can work at least a forested grassland for one more H).

    The value of warriors are much harder to quantify and are much more variable. If one more warrior fogbusting would have prevented that barb spear from spawning and razing your third city, well... that warrior would have yielded alot. :)
     
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  6. DoowMas

    DoowMas Chieftain

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    @krikav Thank you again. Cogs are definitely turning in my head as we speak :)

    Given the feedback, I felt compelled to re-play the first 50 again with the new tips in mind. A full playthrough isn't my main objective, learning is.

    Spoiler :


    I settled closer, prioritised first ring food. Took exact same build/tech path but I swapped out AH realising I didn't need it yet and went Pottery sooner whilst also not bothering with IW as mentioned (you do need it to unlock UU though right?), instead Writing and half way to Mathematics. Havent chopped half as much as you probably intended me to, but I saw that Math tech improves chopping so I felt hesitant until I had that tech. Is not overchopping and waiting for Math worth it, or nah? I did however chop a worker and a Granary and I can definitely see the difference because in the first playthrough I was still constructing the Granary at T50, but now it's complete and already on the way to a Library!

    Does this look any better? Probably not perfect but I assume a much more efficient start than the one before. Also the two potential city spots I've mapped, yay or nay? (Vienne is using the Corn from the capital, just to clarify)

    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
    I will continue to play through this one here and probably be back T100-150. Hopefully can complete this one before NC 224 arrives (and maybe I'll move up to Warlord!)



    Thanks again. I love learning and this game could be very addicting if I can get the hang of it. :)
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @DoowMas
    Spoiler :

    Yes, that looks better. :)
    Waiting for math with chops is usually not worth it. With infinite workers it would be, but worker turns are sadly finite. :(

    Tolosa is hurting because of lack of worker. Such a forward city should always have a worker making the settler company.
    If need be, the worker can come 1-2 turns late, if it indends to finish a "parting gift chop" so that the capital can get a new worker.
    Slow building their own worker at size1 working a 3yield tile is horribly inefficient in comparisson.

    It's a wonderful game, always new things to fine-tune and learn. ;)
     
  8. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    Spoiler t199 conquest :


    So my plan got a little messed up by RNG. my 93% scientist popped an artist, and my 90% merchant popped a scientist! With no merchant cash for upgrades, I decided to starve out one more scientist in the capital and run a second golden age.

    Of course that would still be too simple, so Toku decided to make peace with Zara and declare on me instead :D. I spent all this time wondering how I'm going to get promotions, and Toku makes it easy for me by sending swords and axes for my HA to gobble up. Zara in his infinite wisdom calls a holy war vote against Toku, and of course I oblige! This will be a perfect distraction for my first 2 targets.

    toktok].png


    The great person nonsense + toku slow me down a little bit, but I'm still ready to go in on Vicky @ t159. Most of her cities are on hills which sucks, but she has the pyramids and that's my top priority. I didn't get a metal casting trade in time to build forges, so police state will be key for my production.

    GoVicky.png


    5 turns later with 6 cities captured, she gives in.

    lizz.png


    Next up is Zara of course. Nobody likes him, his cities are in a nice straight line, and he's distracted. What more can you ask for? T168 I go in on him and he doesn't stand a chance. The poor guy never even got gunpowder for his UU.


    zara.png


    4 Turns later he caps, and then it's on to Justinian. I'm lucky enough to hit before he gets guilds so I don't have to deal with those cataphract.

    justinian.png


    Justinian bribed in ol' Sally on me here, but Sally wanted no part of this war. After sending in a few units to die, he bribes Toku on me and runs back to hide. We have about 10 cuirs ready to deal with that nonsense in the east, so after capping Justinian we look towards more pressing matters: Mao. You might say it's a bad idea to start a 3 front war, but hey, my guys are already over here and he doesn't even have gunpowder yet! What's he gunna do anyways, bribe someone on me? :D

    Mao.png


    A few turns later I cap Mao and ceasefire with Saladin, thinking I can get through Toku and back to him within 10 turns. This was a mistake, because Toku ends up peace vassaling to Sally and dragging the game out + bringing sally back into the war before I'm ready. I capture a couple of Toku's cities, then burn down the rest because it's taking too long. Saladin keeps sending 2-3 camel archers at a time to different areas along my border, so it's a bit slow grouping an army that can push out there. Letting Toku vassal here easily added 8-9 turns to the game I think.


    Toku.png



    Finally with toku wiped out I go in on Sally, and man I hate this guy. He had like 5-6 pikes in every city sitting behind 4 Pro longbows(which soon became grenadiers). There was also something funky going on where he refused to capitulate because my vassals were so weak and his strength was above average for the game.

    After burning most of his once illustrious empire to the ground, he's finally willing to throw in the towel on t198.

    Saladin.png

    Fin.png

    statsbren.png
     
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  9. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    just checked out your game @krikav

    Spoiler :
    tough decision whether to proceed or not. Do you know what kind of army he's got? If you wiped most of it out last time he might not have much. Also do you reckon Eng+COL+Drama would be enough to bribe in toku without declaring yourself if you can get him to pleased? That would be most ideal I think. Their borders are so close and Toku's probably stacking there. A quick clash could really hurt Zara before those units can upgrade. I also noticed you captured one of Zara's horses... Does he have another? If not then MT is no concern because he should only have a few stray knights from earlier. The real risk appears to be Zara libbing steel and then just throwing a cannon at your stack every step you take... Justinian might beat him to it though. Maybe if you're super lucky Zara could be a complete idiot and lib divine right. They like to grab unfounded religions don't they?
     
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  10. DoowMas

    DoowMas Chieftain

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    Spoiler Turn 100. The confusion is kicking in. :


    Settled 2 more cities. Haven't settled anywhere else because I couldn't find anywhere that I thought was good. I keep having unhappiness problems even when I "whip" the unhappiness away, sometimes I stay unhappy :( considered settling solely to grab luxuries, but not sure. I'm also pretty broke. -13 at 100% science even with Markets in most of my cities and several cottages being worked. I have also ran out of things to build lol, so my capital is basically just spamming Gallic Warriors. So maybe I'll attack someone, just because.

    Screenshots of my civ and my also my tech screen because I'm not sure where to go with it.

    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    Feel like I've spent the last 20 turns or so just randomly improving tiles that arent even being worked and hitting end turn. :confused: it's Chieftain after all and clearly I'm killing it in the score department-- maybe I just need to play it out and stop being such a damn perfectionist :lol:

    Either way, just keeping updated!

     
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  11. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @DoowMas

    Spoiler :
    you set up your cities the exact same as me nice :goodjob:

    Regarding not seeing any more nice spots, that pig/banana city is quite nice if you want it! Especially if your workers are just building tiles that aren't being worked, might as well put them to use on a new city.

    And -13 gold at 100% slider is a dream for most people here! There's nothing wrong with that at all. It is good practice to keep the slider running high when you can, but you're pretty much always going to be running a deficit at 100% until way later in the game. People usually try to accumulate gold to keep the slider up by either: building wealth, building failgold(building a wonder but not completing it so you get gold for hammers invested when someone else finishes it), and trading/selling tech to the AI. At chieftain the AI might not have much tech or money for trade, but you can keep an eye on that. If someone has say 400 gold but they're lacking a tech everyone else has, you might as well be the one to sell it to them! The "Foreign Advisor" tab at the top is super helpful for seeing what others have.

    re:happiness - a couple things. One, you probably want a few more workers. you have calendar researched but you're not improving the sugar(i think? hard to see). that will give you +1:c5happy:. Connecting the ivory would give another +1:c5happy: Also, you could consider researching monarchy if you have good tiles you want to grow into. It's a pretty cheap tech that enables Hereditary Rule civic, which gives +1:c5happy: per military unit stationed in a city. The other thing to do is trade your surplus resources away for happiness resources, but since the AI are slower on this mode they might not have much to offer you. I also noticed most of your cities don't have a defender. This will give "We fear for our safety" unhappiness, so you really want to avoid that by placing at least 1 guy in each city. P.S did you build monuments? For Charismatic leaders they give +1.

    Markets in most situations you don't really want. If your slider is at 100%, that means you are producing 0 gold per turn, and the market is giving you an extra 25% of 0. In most situations it will be better to build wealth, or build units and go kill people. On that note, construction seems like a good choice. With a few catapults you can definitely take out some neighbours and expand your empire if you want, snagging more resources in the process. You could also just continue expanding though. War is usually a means of acquiring land, and if there's good land available then there's nothing wrong with settling it yourself. Just a heads up though, if you do attack someone just know that catapults are really crap at bombarding. It takes forever to wear down defenses, so usually people just suicide one or two until your attacking units get good odds.
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @DoowMas
    Spoiler :

    Regarding markets
    If you have the slider at 100%, markets doesn't do anything.
    Markets don't multiply the wealth gained by building wealth. (Likewise libraries doesn't multiply the research you get by building research).
    The only thing that would be multiplied by markets at 100% research is if you run merchant specialists. :)
    I'm close to making -13gpt at 0% slider in my game, in that situation markets can be good, but usually it's a building that one just never ever build (like aqueducts, walls and many other buildings).


    Regarding workers
    In the very early game, we cringe if there is nothing for our workers to do at all, and we carefully choose tech so that the starting worker doesn't get idle.
    The same should be true later in the game, when workers are starting to do uneccessery things it's likely time to do something for them to stay productive.
    Perhaps settle more cities, perhaps research calendar and/or IW.
    One thing that is kind of useful but not really, is to workshop alot of tiles in preparation for the waaaaay forward future when guilds+chemistry+castesystem make them worthwhile.

     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @earthy regarding the feedback to my T141 situation
    Spoiler :

    I played on until T153 before I saw your post, sorry about that!

    I can't make Toku do anything. I have completely wrecked diplo with him having ignored his constant moronic requests.
    I had not thought about the horses of Zara at all, neither did I spot that Zara was close to lib.

     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T153 :

    I note my wrecked economy, do the necessery micro, swap to bur/orgrel and whip some infrastructure and slow-build some.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    Justinian wins lib and takes chemistry.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    Zara has his stack close to Toku the coward.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Roll in the trebs!
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    A smaller stack of latecommers joins from the south. Aksum is almost empty too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    T147 Zara bribes Mao on me, was kind of expecting that but nothing I could do about it.
    I bombard for just one turn, but when his doomstack is not entering my empire down south I get scared that he is moving here and throw a collateral3 treb who wins at very low odds instead. Now all I need is a ceasefire really.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    I contemplating leaving the city empty or with one wounded in it so I could strike his stack there, but since he has cultural defense left and it's on a hill... I rather take my odds defending. I promote up some xbows with guerilla and make sure my pikes go as far as they can along combat1+2+formation. Think 3 of them got that far.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    That didn't go all bad. Killing of these guys now and a guerilla2 xbow strikes the last unit an returns safely to the city.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Uninjured units move toward aksum to join up with the crowd from the south.
    Use the GGeneral as a makeshift healing potion for the guys left in Gondar in case Mao shows up with a stack of knights. But I think pathfinding should route him toward Vickys cities.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    I attached the GGeneral on a mace to give him double-movement so he could join the fun. I thought Aksum would be closer of a call than it was.
    Saladin declared on Toku this turn. Poor backwards Sally seem to have developed his jungle land and I'm unlikely to stop him from taking Toku as a vassal now I think. They will be a pain to deal with. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T153 situation :


    Didn't think about this wonder. Need to check if I need paper to work that.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

    I grab Philosophy. I have two GSci standing around and a third GPersons to spawn soon.
    A bulb is worth almost 2000 beakers now so double-bulbing chemistry seems rather silly.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    Didn't build that much more units since T141, and I lost quite a few. Need to guard against Mao since he won't talk yet, but I want to see if I can grab a few cities from Toku before Sally gets him too, or if I should just panic toward chemistry and see if that is enough to make him back of.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
    Economy is almost as bad, probably due to the cities from Vicky comming out of revolt.
    But with a swap to rep shortly I should get up some steam. With parthenon and pacifism I should look into the opportunity to spawn GPersons from multiple places too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG
    It feels unlikely that I will be able to catch up Justinian/Mao before they are at AL. But I might be able to push forwards against Sally.
    I'm ages away from rifling so I might have to try zerg him down with grenadiers.
    Trying to get Vicky up to rifling so she can act as a shield though.
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG
    Overview right after the capitulation.
    Need to investigate and think abit how to proceed now.
    Perhaps it's possible to get Toku as a peace vassal if I get out of the war with Mao and declare on Sally...?
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

     
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  16. DoowMas

    DoowMas Chieftain

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    Spoiler Turn 158 :
    Cruising through this one now. 3 vassals, empire looking pretty good to me. :thumbsup: those workshops with caste system and guilds literally transformed the rubbish production that Vienne had!

    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    Gonna finish this one off later most likely, conquest :) and next game I'll attempt Warlord maybe.

     
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  17. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    looking good! Your vassals have you covered to the west, and toku/saladin should keep each other distracted for a little while. Seems like you have lots of possible options here. peace vassaling Toku would be really cool, but if it doesn't work you've just poked the giant. I'm picturing a scenario where you declare on Sally, Toku and Sally make peace, and then Sally just focuses everything on you :shifty:. If you do go that route, it might be worth gifting Toku a city to the east of your corn to fill out his culture and block Sally. Knowing Toku he won't reopen borders after that treachery from Sally :D

    An option I find interesting is going for Mao, but I'm not sure if you have the units for it. I would imagine most of his army is down near Vicky, so if you brought like 20 guys to his most northern city you might put him in quite a predicament. If you did manage to vassal Mao, you're almost certain to get Justinian as a vassal at some point too. There's no way he would be able to defend from all sides. Does Mao have horse? If not he shouldn't be any stronger than Zara was.
     
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  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    It's almost as if you have a crystal ball, @earthly :)
    Spoiler T179 :

    With pyramids in my posession I swap to rep, run a GA and start teching.
    I make sure Zara gets a horse so he can build cuirs too.

    I waited a turn to see if Philo+Gunpowder would be enough to broker peace, but as that wasn't possible I sell gunpowder to Toku for 170g and I also gift him iron which he was lacking. Now he should be able to withstand beating for quite some time.
    Since Mao won't talk I just move carefully toward him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Well.. that wasn't much.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    Come on Toku, I gave you iron and gunpowder!
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Still no talking, but now I'm just going to continue to beat him up, he is a long way from rifling and has only chemistry.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    Aha, he did have a stack, he was only holding up at home scared to attack me. :)
    I put a xbow inside the city, thinking he would move in there so I could smash him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    He didn't go for the bait, but instead hit my stack, I think I like this even more as this saves me trebs which I'm running abit low on.
    The Xbow is really proud too. ^_^
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    I moved onward to the next city, but as I bombarded he finished Mil/Sci, so I made a premature attempt before the city fills up with protective grenadiers. Did not succeed. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG



    Phew! Just one lone guy!
    But this one still takes with him 4-5 of my units to hell as he goes down.
    I make some half-assed attempts at going forward and bombarding Guanschu for my vassals, but quickly fall back and wait for Steel+MilSci so I can uppgrade some of my units.
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG


    T174 Toku demands I become a Hindu. :D No Toku, NO! :D

    Ah, tech is finally in.
    Upgrading a few units for stack defenders, but the bulk of upgrades are the CR3 maces. I must mention again how much of a fan I am of CR3 grenadiers. Also the military academies I think are the best use of GGenerals after the initial tricks and the super medic.
    People say that MilSci is a dead end tech and if one considers victory a dead end they are right. ;)

    Vicky has rifling now but I wait until Zara has it too before I start breaking up my steel monopoly.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

    Knock knock Mao! Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T191 :


    Mao joins the team.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG

    Justinian has quite a few units, but I declare here anyway (and gift Mao Najing) :)
    Was hoping he would go for mao on his hill city with protective grenadiers, but he went for pyramids instead. >_<
    Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG

    I try to tell my Vassals to attack cities, but they don't do a very good job.
    Civ4ScreenShot0044.JPG

    Zara ran face first into Justinians stack, he did slow him down abit but not enough for me to get reinforcements to protect Gondar.
    Civ4ScreenShot0045.JPG

    I make progress on Justinians western front.
    Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG

    I lose Gondar, and once my reinforcements arrive to take it back I am a few units short and next turn Zara grabs it instead. Losing police state was bad, but oh well. :/
    Civ4ScreenShot0055.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0059.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0061.JPG

    Good to have you aboard the team Justinian, we got adventures in the east comming up!
    Civ4ScreenShot0063.JPG

     
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  20. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :
    Shame about the mids, but things are looking really good! I like the city gift to Vicky especially. I love doing that when my troops are limited and I just want to move forward. Usually they won't take someone else's city until it's out of revolt though I thought? CR grens are really nice, but whenever I go that route I feel too exposed out in the open. I guess you need to balance the stack with some units to protect the grenadiers?

    Mao is teching really well here! Are you sending him towards artillery or is he just doing his own thing? And I guess the next target is Toku? He should be pretty easy to take out, but Sally will be a bit of a grind..The "know your enemy" thread says Sally is average for resisting capitulation, but in my experience he's always a bastard that fights to the very end..
     
    krikav likes this.

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