Nobles' Club 223: Brennus of the Celts

[krikav]

Spoiler T205 :

This stack is entierly fresh, was building cannons and some grenaiders with police state all the time, thought the fight with Mao+justinian would be over sooner so started to send units east. The rifles are all drafted. Spi is sooo nice in this regard.
Toku has a respectable stack there too.

He parked outside of Gondar and bombarded for an eternity. I had alot of units standing there waiting for it to fall, but I was hoping I could make him capitulate without killing all of his units, as they would be nice to send toward Sally later.

Toku has been busy building up his capital.

He finally attacked Gergovia, and got so excited that he continued abit against my stack too.

I didn't have to whipe out his stack, took some city up north instead.

Now I'm whipping cavalery everywhere. I thought it would be a cakewalk to roll over Saladin with the help of all vassals. Declared right away so that the units that was moving toward toku can continue to move toward saladin instead.

So nice to have a vassal that can take some beating.

I ran 100% EP-slider against saladin with my remaining cash, won't reach communism anyway. And it looks like he has more or less a doomstack in every single city.

I was afraid of the size of the stack, but when I saw that he had mainly cavalery I dared to strike it where it stood.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T217 Conquest :

Played kind of sloppy toward the end. I thought I could zerg down him abit but taking fights at bad odds combined with abit of bad luck can be nasty.

I tried a trick with gifting most of my cities back to the vassals, thinking that might make it easier to get Sally to capitulate. Not sure that worked though... or perhaps it did.
Got into severe trouble as I gifted away cities though, got unhappines galore due to lost resources and economy went downhill completely. Had a turn or so of strike too but conquest gold had me floating.
So funny that Sally converts to Hinduism the last turn too.

GG!

 

[krikav]

@earthly

Spoiler :

I have that experience with Sally too, he can be extremly stubborn. Could it be that we usually avoid him and take him toward the end, and a couple of weak vassals throw wrenches in the gears...?

After the steel trades when I had steel/rifling/MilSci I kind of stopped paying attention to what the vassals where doing. Every turn was just moving units and cycling through all cities whipping wherever the lights where on.

The grenadiers are kind of tough on their own, but it's extremly important to have enough tougher units than just the upgraded CR maces, as they cost a fortune. Either just freshly built grenadiers down the combat line, or perhaps formation pikes which are dirt cheap in comparisson.

I haven't tried it too much myself, but I have read that some of the pros go with some guerilla muskets and try to stay on hills too.

 

[earthy]

@krikav gg!

Spoiler :

T216 Saladin: I was trying to be diplomatic here, but since you're all *******s I'm going into my own religion damnit!

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis
Are you playing these games yourself too?

 

[AcaMetis]

Playing them, no, though I'm reading people's playthroughs of it . One nice thing about having full map knowledge, no spoilers I need to worry about .

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis
I see.
One fun thing with hosting maps, is that if you have some grand nice plan or idea of how things will turn out, people seem to constantly go off in some entierly different direction.
What was the nice plan or general idea for this map?

 

[AcaMetis]

Definitely, starting with Lain's tough Deity maps thread I don't think a single map I've posted ended up playing out the way I intended them to. Actually, no, one map did perform to expectations - the impossible Charly map. It was, as expected, a complete and total trainwreck from T0 until the HRE's death . Of course little else was going to happen on that one .

As for the map (spoilered just in case)

Spoiler :

it went through a number of idea changes, actually . I knew I wanted some form of not ocean map, since SPI is better the more AIs you meet early, and I knew I wanted Rocky climate, since Dun/Gallic Warriors. Beyond that I tried a number of map scripts, went through a large number of rival AI lineups (my general idea was "religious zealots = many different religions being run = good playground for SPI shenanigans" (-> everyone up to and including Holy Hindu Sally runs Buddhism until literally the last turn anyway )) and really struggled to figure out what level of difficulty I wanted. Obviously not Lain-level hard, although I did contemplate going with a start that had a single plains cow and two floodplains for "food", but what kind of handicap should an NC map give Brennus and his D-tier starting techs? Gold seemed to be a common commodity with my NC maps as of late .

Then somewhere along the line I ended up rolling this start, say the powerful double corn double ivory start with nearby corn and river and everything, and the rest pretty much fell into place . It even managed to present a challenge that I didn't expect, since I didn't notice that the map was so commerce starved (especially when ignoring Fishing for a later Engineering bulb), and it even managed to teach me (and a few veterans, I'm sure ) something new - Lakes adjacent to cities connect resources along any river that flows into it.

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

I did enjoy the lineup, but was very dissapointed with the lack of action from Tokus side in my game, I thought I did a really nice trick gifting CRE zara a city right in his face, but he just suck that up for thousands of years which was weird. But rng does that somehow.
A thing that I found very interesting was the fact that Mao/Justy and to a certain extent Zara was land starved, but sprinted to a pretty dominant position early on, while Sally took his sweet time, sloowly developed into a large monster in his barb ridden ocean sized jungle territory.
I didn't realize how much area he had, untill I started my attack toward him. Had taken the first few cities but then scrolled eastwards and there was just line after line with more cities.
Abit like Kublai had in your Pacal game.
It's a element that can spice up the game abit, as you are racing against the clock.

I'm not sure that the starting area really is that commerce starved, it's just that one has to chop and cottage that riverside early and build the economy. But it does mean that one has to take care and handle it somehow, not just free gold or gem that takes care of all overexpansion sins.

The economic hole that I found myself in for much of the game made me think more about studying the AIs areas, will absolutely pay more attention to who cottages their land in the future. "Know your enemy" states that Vickys fav improvement is cottage, but that wasn't the case in my game at least.

Oh, and I'm not so sure that the map does lend itself to a engi bulb really, it's just that it could be done, which it in most cases cannot, so I shoe-horned that strategy upon the map because I wanted to.

Thanks alot for an enjoyable map @AcaMetis !

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Sally's generous availability of land (since I know players like to shy away from settling jungle themselves ) is something I noticed and approved of. I try to make sure that my maps have something that'll keep things at least a bit interesting on Deity. Doesn't have to be a major hurdle or anything complicated (as if the AI would ever cooperate with a complicated set-up anyway ), just something to make sure that starting with good land/resources doesn't make the game a completely trivial foregone conclusion on T0 for the veterans.

Commerce starved relative to an "average" start, where you've probably got a bit more commerce and/or better starting techs. Or, you know, Gold . Like you said, nothing crazy that takes Lain to make work, just something that requires paying attention and knowing what techs to prioritize early.

 

[Eagle777]

Spoiler The conclusion :

After the draft and the rifling war (which capped Toku as he did not have rifling), and then taking out his ally Mao, I took a bit of a break.

I had Justinian on the west and Arabia on the east left.
To make it a bit harder, they had a defensive pact with very little chance to get them out of it (+15 or so even though they were different religions).

Sal and Justinian were both at Infantries already.

I probably could have hit right away, with all my troops at Mao's place.
However, it would've meant I'd lose a couple of cities to Sal in the far east, as all my trops were at Mao's place.

So I built up and teched instead, and transferred all my armies to the far east, to Arabia's doorstep.
I went all the way to Factories and coal plants and infantries myself.
It did take quite a while.

And I had a war vs Arabia on one side, while almost all of my vassals kept Justinian busy on the other (he had no way to get near me, AND I assumed three of my vassals would be able to overwhelm him or at least not lose).
Fun setup.
I gave my allies various technologies, I was overtaking the tech race since I could direct 3-4 civs and their research picks.

Sal capitulated once I took out his stack and two of his cities.

Then I took one of Justinian's and that was it.
I was hoping for a conquest victory, but the game rolled domination instead.

Thank you for the map!

As for the Stonehenge, I do believe all you guys that it is quite an inefficient play. And that at Deity it is almost a no-go (I am playing Immortal).
It is just something that I like to do.

 

[krikav]

@Eagle777


Sounds like you had a nice game!
Here is one pretty nice analysis of SH by @drewisfat
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/a-brennus-game.654110/#post-15648543

Regarding the diplo situation:

Spoiler :

Sally and Justinian both love theocracy, one way to break up such a bond is to swap to OrgRel or Pacifism yourself, then use a spy to influence civic of either one of them. With SPI, such tricks become more feasable.
Perhaps still complicated, perhaps still impractical, but it's one possible tool.

 

[Eagle777]

Thank you for the tips!

Interesting read.
Why is the Great Spy the best GP? They always seemed close to being the worst, just behind the artists.

I always liked those prophets. They give me both production and gold in the capital, and that's always welcome.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Thank you for the tips!

Interesting read.
Why is the Great Spy the best GP? They always seemed close to being the worst, just behind the artists. .

Infiltrating another civ with a GSpy gives you cca. 3000 spy points that are worth several major techs like MC, Feudalism etc... Depending on how long your spies sit in the foreign city and if you have trade routes/share the same religion etc., the techs get even cheaper, in that case 3000 spy points > 3000 beakers! Compare this to 2H 5C from a Prophet!
Also there is another approach to a real spy "economy", i have seen that on YT showcased by AZ. He got an early GSpy and built Scotland Yard with. The advantage is that SY gives +100% on spy points while an acadamy from GS gives only +50% on beakers. So putting your slider on +100% espionage for many turns is superior to self-teching with academy and libraries and 100% research. Of course, there is the risk to lose your spies.
I don't know if Spy Economy or Infiltration is the better way to go but in either case, the GSpy is a freaking awesome person.
I can imagine that the Spy Eco depends on the leader, Rosy would be strong candidate (IND helps for Great Wall, ORG builds courthouses everywhere). For me, it is not an option as I use to play w/o brokering and I can never trade away stolen techs while I can trade anything I self-teched.
The infiltration thing is a very common strategy on Always War games by the way, if you get away with building the Great Wall.

 

[krikav]

I did it here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-219-gilgamesh-of-sumeria.653952/#post-15646028

 

[Excal]

Immortal Difficulty with No huts No events Normal Speed

T108 175BC
Fun neighbors

Spoiler :

Tech Path: Agri > Mine > Bronze > Wheel > Pott > Write > Aesth (Trade Alpha and back fill)

Settle: Vienne > Tolosa > Gergovia > Camulodunum > Barb City

heading to Barb city when Toku DoW
but I am on a Hill and Toku stupidly suicides about 6 units (without seige)
but whipping defenders costs me GrLib so take failgold consolation prize

 

[Excal]

T185 1250AD
First Vassal

Spoiler :

England is mine (caps after 5 cities incl London)

Tech to Educ > Lib (take Nationalism, use Music GrArt = GA, build Taj = GA, GrSci + Gr Merch = GA with MoM = 36 turns)

Cuirs to conquer

 

[Excal]

T209 1490AD
Third Vassal

Spoiler :

Second Vassal was Zara who capped quickly after just 2 cities
I guess the Cavs scared him

Third Vassal Saladin who put up quite a fight with his super-promoted CG3 grenadiers
took longer with more losses than I liked
burned two cities to allow more room for my culture and encouraged settler production x2 (rather than units) = 2 free disposable scouts

 

[Excal]

T235 1625AD
Conquest Victory

Spoiler :

Toku next (payback) - take 5 cities on 1st turn of war

Mao next he has cannon but no match for 40 odd Cavs

domination land area a few percent under 64, so Justin next but he has cannon and machine guns
eventually take 4 cities inc Constantinople

overall a much more challenging game for a rusty player - thanks
relatively poor starting techs definitely slowed initial progress and low commerce required lots of cottage development (fur would have been nice)
SPI = no anarchy

Edit: forgot to add Save