Nobles' Club 226: Victoria of England

[earthy]

to t143

Spoiler :

After nationalism/paper I fast build the Taj with my G.eng, switch into buddhi/pacifism, and start cranking out the scientists. Here I am waiting for my edu bulbs, and since I won't be able to get a music trade I head for that myself while waiting. Going to aim for 3 G.Sci here(2x edu, 1x lib), since I got a compass trade from washington.

After bulbing edu I tech gunpowder while waiting for my Lib scientist. I trade compass/music to Giggles for Feud, and at the end of the golden age I switch into PS/Vass/Slavery/Paganism & no state religion. Philo to Joao for Machinery after I bulb lib since he has divine right anyways.

T137 lib MT, and now it's madness time.

Can't really decide here if I want to go for GK or Washington(I can never decide ) but I'm kind of leanng towards GK since he doesn't have engineering and he's a bit closer. Also, Washington has this disgusting holy city on a hill with a castle that will be in my way:

@t143 Genghis and WK go back at each other, so it looks like GK is definitely the one to go for here. I have 19 cuir with a few more on the way, but a few more wouldn't hurt I think. He will have a ton of units. Feels like a good date for Cuir, but it does scare me a bit how close everyone else is to RP.

P.S. Wtf are you doing Hammy? Don't tell me you're going all the way around the world to attack me with that army . He doesn't have OB with GK so he might be.. This guy has been plotting for like 30 turns too

 

[scheines]

Spoiler :

Emperor, NHNE. Considering immortal on one of these soon. Not sure though. Won quite a few on emperor in a row, but the NC maps tend to have a certain fairness to them that RNG doesn't.

Weird start to me. Not because of a lack of options though!

Settled in place. Thought about the ivory, but got greedy for the 5x food. Will make it easier to share either the top or bottom fish this way I guess.

I started BW and work boat. BW because I plan to whip out lots of work boats. Worker probably could've been done too, but since most of our food comes from seafood I wanted to get those going sooner rather than later. Plus the fish tile is better than the corn.

At S2, I worked the ivory tile to speed the boat up a lot. Growth is good, but the +3 food from the fish earlier is worth it IMO.

Finish BW and revolt as the boat is in transit. Start a worker, planning to whip it for 1 pop. Met Sumeria by now as well. Not my favorite AI

As I mentioned, whipped the worker to progress things along. Forgot he has nothing to do for a turn, so should've waited a bit for more overflow perhaps.

I went for a farm on the corn first, but realized the turns are basically wasted because the city will work all fish tiles for awhile. So, in hindsight I should’ve probably just chopped I guess?

Whip a second work boat so I can instead work nice tiles like fish + FP instead of using the ivory to get them out. Tech wise, I want cottages on the FPs so I go TW -> pottery. Delaying AH would be nice but there's a pig + sheep + cow around so I might end up going for it.

Went to put the work boat on the clam (3C tile beats the fish IMO) but turns out that is not a peninsula haha.


Despite that, I settled York here first. (Yes, I know I don't need a road. Well at least now I do. I assumed I would because they don't technically connect by coast in my borders?). There's so many seafood tiles I realized I won't be working many cottages until I am sharing food a bit more. I liked this spot for sharing some FP cottages later. No use in claiming the stone yet, and I didn't scout north because I expected it to be a peninsula. I could've claimed the south "S" by the lion to wrap around west to that 5x food city spot, but felt the FP + 2x food was superior short term.

I think I wanna go AH just because I'll know get a few pastures in. Don't know what else I'd do... hunting is coming soon to support more whipping but it's not as urgent as food IMO.

Could've went masonry for pyramids (so much food), but we are financial on a big 'ole FP so running representation seems wasteful. I could see building them for universal suffrage to be decent though.


Strategy wise, it's a bit early to tell where I'll go. Rushbuying redcoats is an early thought I had. We have elephants if anyone is just a little too close as well. I kind of wish we were Elizabeth so I could better justify building the pyramids here, but Victoria is still decent. Maybe I'll give away the stone to whoever is closest and hope I can conquer it with elephants.

Settle plan is below. That spot out west can run quite a few specialists; same with the north site and capital. The rest will be a sea of cottages I think. I'll probably do the spices + west sites next to ensure I get that spot. From there, any of the other 3 could be a good option (stone probably the least so). It all depends IMO on whats north and what land looks to be most contested. If there's more seafood on the eastern side of the isthmus to the north, that might get priority. Otherwise, FPs are a nice consolation

 

[krikav]

@scheines NC maps being fair...? Absolutely! Sometimes you just get whacked and sometimes everything is just yummy.

Take a look at NC212 or NC215 for some recent fun from @AcaMetis
Further back you can check out NC202 (which I hosted) that had it's own special charm.
NC200 I remember was quite a challenge.
Even further back NC191 was brutal (Lainvideo on that one!)

 

[sampsa]

Latest NC maps have been unbelievably easy, if I may say. Maybe the point is to hook people into the series? It seems to be working.

 

[krikav]

@scheines

Spoiler :

If you go for agriculture which you did (I did too) I think York should be in a position to share the corn.
Your placement of york is nice, but it really requires AH and/or some cottages to start working to really shine.

I think your build of the workboat is wrong.
Could be that the early BW and future whipping potential changes something here, but generally when you are building workboats you should just work maximum hammers and get that boat out as quick as possible.
With SiP, I think that would be one of the following:

A) Work ivory until borderpop, then the 3H forested PH.
B) Grow to pop 2 with a floodplain, then do something like work Floodplain+ivory every third turn, and ivory+forested plains hill 2 turns of 3. Alternating between growth and starvation, but avoiding accumulating food in the food bar and instead get hammers into the boat.

As to why York is connected, I have no idea.
Is it because the tile 1E of London (And tile 1SE?) is adjaced to both rivers? O_o

 

[AcaMetis]

Latest NC maps have been unbelievably easy, if I may say. Maybe the point is to hook people into the series? It seems to be working.

The last few maps have indeed been easy, but my reasoning is that they're Noble's Club maps intended for new(er) players, not Lain asking for tough Deity maps. Rest assured that I can manage the latter (in example: NC 212 and NC 215), but NC maps should probably stay on a level where it doesn't take the most veteran of veterans to show the rest how to approach it .

Not to mention, even veterans can learn a lesson or two from easier maps at times .

Spoiler :

This map in particular was very much designed to be a trap, and intended to be a lesson in "protect what you have before grabbing what you can't protect" - cottaged floodplains a nice, but they produce diddly squad in terms of production and actively discourage the use of Slavery (want to grow those cottages!), so between the needed fishing boats, workers and settlers you're going to be badly starved for production. Than there's the temptation to go Writing and Masonry to focus on building Mids and developing this delicious land, even extending yourself even further to grab more deliciousness and much needed strategic resources out in the east (something that IMP certainly encourages you to do)...but all that ends in disaster if you aren't paying attention to Gilgamesh (or even if you are, as earthy found out) and suddenly find yourself with an army on your border, or if Genghis Khan gets ideas about you suddenly being a squishy land target. The Ivory was sort of intended to be a subtle hint about that - you're going early Hunting anyway, and your Bronze Working (chops/slavery) and Animal Husbandry (pigs) revealed nothing nearby. So maybe you should tech Archery...?

Obviously the veterans aren't going to fall for the bait, especially right after NC 225 ( ), but I imagine that a new(er) player might not understand the importance of Archery in this situation and end up (futilely) trying to defend against Vultures with Warriors .

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

I think the idea was nice actually, especially combined with IMP. I would have never thought I'd build two settlers before a worker, but here it seems plausible. I happened to be very lucky diplomatically too, friendly Genghis by T90 and Gilgamesh with shared religion+civic will be friendly soon, too. So for me, the issue is that the game is won very early and winning it can be a bit boring, because it's inevitable. Will try to finish this though, since I already abandoned Alex-game in a totally won position 1AD.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T141 (tbc) :

I start to see signs that I'm getting stuck in builders mindset already, but trying to take everything one step at the time. half-bulbing education doesn't feel that tempting as it looks like I'm doing fine in the race anyway and an academy seems nice at this point. It shaves a turn of printing press too.

Looks like Wang is collapsing completely. I already regret that I agreed to stop trading with him, could have given him something to beef him up abit.

T125 Joao is very close to finishing philosophy (Washington has it already) so I trade it away for cash with Joao and for construction with Gilga.

I get a GEng at 20% odds.
Last turn, I ran 100% into polytheism as I was expecting a GScientist to bulb the rest of education and I wanted the overflow rolling.
These small techs like poly/hunting/archery can be very useful in this way. They allow you to run 100% research and store up beaker overflow.
But with a GEng now I run for nationalism instead.

Overview picture. Just growing cities and developing, preparing for a possible GA.

Only washington has nationalism, and he doesn't seem to be building Taj (Doesn't say "We have our reasons")
Also, noone seem to be interested in teching paper which I like. Starting to cook up plans to lib something fancy here.

T131 Khan demands currency and I agree. Gives me -1 diplo with Joao but still firmly in friendly territory with him.

Now I micromanage as I usually do prior to a GA, making sure the food bars of all cities are full and that no city grows.
As the GA start and i swap to caste+pacifism though, I start to realize that I'm probably just better of continuing to work tiles and continue growing.
I make sure that I get at least one GPersons so I can run a GA later though. But laying of 3F8C towns to run some pesky non-rep specialists doesn't feel tempting at all.

The bloodbath continues. I feel bad for Wang. :'( Next turn Wang capitulates and I'm very glad that I have my currency-tribute shield.
This turn I notice that Joao is finally going paper.

Only Hammy is going for education, so I make a choice to go full tilt peacemongerer and tech constitution and lib democracy.
T140 Two turns later I get 450g for paper from washington and cash in on nationalism (optics+music with hammy, guilds with gilga and engineering with Joao).

I'm abit on for me uncharted territory here, but I plan to get some more infrastructure up (AP temples, gold multipliers).
I imagine that I'll grow to happycap now and then do a GA in rep/caste/paci, but that I'm also going to go into enmancipation soon to finish alot of towns. Universial suffrage will come abit later after I have gotten some more GPeople out. Starting to think that national epic should go into capital together with globe theatre in a while so that city remains highly useful even after burocracy stops being interesting.

Winning AP diplomatic victory seems very much possible if only I grow abit more in population. Should probably cancel all resource deals to Washington and be more genereous with resources to Joao/Gilga to get their population and vote count up too.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T143 :

Hammy finishes education, but noone has any chance of finishing lib in 1-2 turns, so I trade away education for gunpowder with Gilga, next turn I finish constitution and trade gunpowder for banking with Joao.

Situation at T143. It seems that I'm slowly gaining control of both of GKs rices, and border tension is building up.
The peace-treaty is just up and my hope that he would start plotting while I was safe was in vain. Now I need to handle him somehow.

One way would be to just lib MT and whip cuirs, but to start whipping away towns and villages in cities of this size just to defend against a possible threat of a backwards warmongerer doesn't excite me.
I much rather just buy and army abit later.

I have no idea why noone of my friends think they have "Nothing to gain" by attacking Khan.
The glory of ridding the world of this villain isn't enough for them?!

Khan himself doesn't seem to be that eager to just continue to wage war either...

Joao and Gilga does like Hammy, (most likely due to HR, forgot to check).
But what I think I will do, is that I will give hammy guilds+gunpowder, then declare war on him myself. That way bribing Khan to attack Hammy will cost so much less.
Hammy will have stuff to defend himself for a long time, and I don't have to advance Khan so much.
Feels like a completely crazy thing to do though, but what choice do I have?

" Heeeere Hammy! Have Guilds! Have gunpowder too!!
Oh wait... I hate you!!! This means WAR!! .
Khan, help me rid the world of these vicious Babylonians! "

 

[Excal]

Immortal Difficulty - Normal Speed, No Huts, No Events

T277 1814AD

Retired

Spoiler :

captured 2 cities and Gilga caps readily

Washington has founded a couple cities right in my backyard which makes Domination near impossible - he is also out-teching me now
worse still a couple turns later and Joao peace vassals to him

so I tech steel, whip cannons/rifles and takeout his two cities to my south in the Tundra
Hamy is bribed in, so I also need to roll the Cavs over to Karkorum to defend Genghis (I gift him rifle/steel)

take Peace with Washington and now Domination is possible
take out a few of Hamys cannons and Cease Fire

unfortunately by now I have fallen well behind in tech
I redeclare Hamy and take back Old Sarai for Genghis, but I cannot advance over land because Wang wont give me open borders

worse still Washington is plotting - AND he now has MechInfantry

so time to through in the towel
UN might be possible if I farmed everything for population (Hamy won recent president) but I have lost the desire to continue

With hindsight (and now having read a few of other posts) I should have expanded more earlier and taken on Washington first (Genghis was totally backwards tech wise and tied up in other wars)
Yep - definitely still quite rusty at Civ4
but good experience none the less - Thanks for the game

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis & @sampsa

Spoiler :

A very carefully engineered trap Acametis! I love the setup!

And in terms of map being easy.... Well some maps are clearly more forgiving to mistakes than others, but in terms of being easy.. They are just easy when you play properly.
The way I see it, the greatest obstacle to victory in most maps is myself and my tendancy to force some idea I have in my head upon a map that doesn't allow for it.
In this current map, expanding right into Gilgamesh and Khans faces while with greedy eyes watching maturing cottages is an example of a certain play that could turn this map to a very difficult one.

Also, I had troubles with the Zara map that I couldn't finish, but in both the Mao game and here I take the opportunity to explore some aspects of the game that I have little or no experience with, and thats fun too!

 

[krikav]

@Excal

Spoiler :

Totally get the motivation point. Sometimes you and the game isn't in sync and it just isn't any fun.

But just looking at the screenshots, I don't think your position is hopeless.
Nice chokepoint at nottingham and it should be possible to play in a way that you lose ground only slowly there and save up cash to get peace again soon enough.
You could gift him some city that he can't reach and reinforce prior to him declaring, that way you can take that city back when the war starts and get some war success headstart.

Depending on how Wang is looking in tech/army it might be an option to DoW him too.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I tried my hand at this map. T64.

Spoiler :

Really wanted to Oracle Monarchy. I don't think that can happen.
Many things feel wrong : London has to be settled on the ivory but then the city really lacks hammers.
Floodplains everywhere and little resources means the unhealth is a real danger.
Stone looks cool but what are you gonna do without a production city ? Whip into wonders ? Hum...

Not sure I played this right, went : Agriculture, BW, AH, The Wheel, Pottery, Writing.
Getting Pottery this late with a FIN leader is suspicious but I felt both BW and AH were required.

One thing I did right is grab the eastern gold and I'll secure horses with a border pop.
There are 2 barb cities to the north and 3 to the south east. I can hope to capture some. Could go for Masonry, now. More likely I try for Horseback Riding and barb cities.
Only 3 workers are not enough : after being late to Pottery, I'm late to cottaging.

Spoiler :

^ Libyan spawned badly. I wanted a city on the plains hills NW of the sheep and another SE of the stone. Can't do that, now.

 

[krikav]

Nice to have you around BiC!

Spoiler :

Oracle Monarchy to resolve happines problems quickly?
What is the reasoning behind Nottingham placed where it is, and not 1W? Did you utilize the peak for nice fogbusting?

I like your placement of Canterbury, I went there voluantary but I think I'm the only one. Every other writeup I have seen have a city SE of the stone. I have a hard time to see the benefits of that.
On ivory, capital secures culture over stone T51 anyway, and isn't it much better to kill a desert hill rather than a grassland?
And seeing that this paired with capital is likely to be the westernmost expansion toward Mr Vulture, having the city on a hill feels safer too.
Later on, the possibility for a harbour in that city is also nice I think.
The only bad thing about that desert hill is that it takes away the possilbility for a nice city on that PH NW of the sheep imho.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Krikav :

Spoiler :

Oracle Monarchy to grow London to size 20 in the BCs Kinda wanted to SIP for that purpose, too (more hammers, more food long term).

Nottingham doesn't have fresh water, I don't want it to have 7 floodplains in BFC.
Canterbury, I think, goes SE of the stone if you secure a city NW of the sheep. The city is fine but I'd rather have 2 cities than a single one.

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Aha, 7 floodplains is 7*0.4 = 2.8 which rounds up..?
6*0.4 = 2.4 which rounds down?
I went with a city 1N of sheep.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Floodplains unhealth always rounds down.
2fps : 0 unhealth ; 4 gives 1 ; 7 gives 2.

Having 7 floodplains in a city is actually a pretty good number I'm not saying my reasoning to settle for 4 was right.

 

[scheines]

If you go for agriculture which you did (I did too) I think York should be in a position to share the corn.

Definitely agree on the placement of York. I didn't want to settle north first though since I thought it was a peninsula.

generally when you are building workboats you should just work maximum hammers and get that boat out as quick as possible.

Would whipping after growth take ~5 turns, and slowbuild with 2.5 hammers on average take ~12 turns, making the former faster?

Spoiler To T92 :

Settled Nottingham next for the corn share. I start going archery because that horse is not quite immediately attainable. Plus, I have cheated a little and seen that Vultures can be nasty vs. warriors alone. So, just in case Gilgamesh comes my way, I'll be ready. Barbs also get kind of nasty so it was well worth the time.

Running into problems where whipping is stacking up big time. There's no alternative though to me, since I've heard in the past that tiles like 5F1C and 6F are ones you just really always should be working.

Settle Hastings on the stone next. Originally had it 1E but saw some people's settlement plans I liked this better. Want to block off Gilgamesh and ensure I get the rest of the FP, and some nice tiles to the east. I realized that might all be my land. I thought GK was over there, but now I'm not so sure. Can't quite spare the archers yet.

Next is Canterbury out east. Finished claiming the FPs and will keep moving east (horse + gold next?)

Gilgamesh absolutely ruined my city spot out east lol. He is really being a nuisance, settling right up on my borders. Shortly after this, he settles 1S of the spices. Leaning toward some early war to try to capitulate him, since he tends to need dealt with sooner rather than later.

Didn't mention much tech wise yet, but I went for myst -> med -> PH to get ready to make a trade for monarchy. Really want it for HR to fix the unhappy caps.

I go Aesthetics in the meantime for trade value.

 

[sampsa]

@scheines

Spoiler :

I think in that situation it's just best to slow build those settlers/workers, because you are whipping away good tiles and causing more whip anger. Not settling on ivory also slowed you down a lot. If you take a peek at my T82 screenshot (some spoily info though on scouting and final AI), you see how much ahead my empire is - cities were settled earlier so they have granaries already and most cities have libraries, too.

 

[earthy]

@krikav

Spoiler :

I don't understand how in my t125 I'm running a million rep scientists in a golden age and only making 405BPT, and you are just working tiles(not in GA) and making 437 . are the extra cities/pop really making up that difference?

p.s. how evil is AcaMetis for leaving that cursed archer tile behind the rocks?