Nobles' Club 226: Victoria of England

[elementoffear]

Adding the barb techs is what we're talking about, unfortunately the scripts can't help with that. I don't find them necessary to prepare the scenario files, either. The biggest pain would be removing goody huts, but with Notepad++ I can do that to all five huts/events saves at once with one click .

if its that easy maybe I can add it to the scripts? what is needed there really?

 

[AcaMetis]

Maybe? I don't know how these scripts work, but what I do in Notepad++ is open all the finished huts/events files and than replace all instances of ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT with ### ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT in all opened documents. It comments out the goody huts so they won't actually appear ingame, and Notepad++ has a button to replace all in all opened documents, so all I need to do is hit that button.

 

[elementoffear]

Maybe? I don't know how these scripts work, but what I do in Notepad++ is open all the finished huts/events files and than replace all instances of ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT with ### ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT in all opened documents. It comments out the goody huts so they won't actually appear ingame, and Notepad++ has a button to replace all in all opened documents, so all I need to do is hit that button.

The scripts do that I think, at least mine makes huts/events version and a NHNE version for all levels.

 

[sampsa]

Want to join the Stalin game, so

to the end:

Spoiler :

Decided to start with Gilgamesh (620 AD), since it should be a breeze and it times nicely with getting rifling, so I can go cavalry on Genghis. Was super easy, took 4 closest cities in 4T and capped 700AD. Whipped HE in capital, it's the best spot and is a problem for my empire AND is rather useless very soon. Can't think of a tech I need after rifling really. -generation in York was kind of a fail, should have just starved during GA, now I need to whip a market to get the last out and I think only a GM is worth something. Can bulb chemistry with a GS, but meh, I don't think I do much with steel even.

Declare on Genghis 5T later (800AD), just had to spend some time moving troops and upgraded almost all of my army to cavalry, since I had the money and the plan is to shut down research entirely. 5T later from that (900AD) I had captured 9 cities pretty easily, as there is just not much even an unit spammer deity AI can do to 30 cavalry if he doesn't even have gunpowder. I'm sure he had a stack somewhere fighting Hammurabi, but it's a long trip for him. I chose to cease fire now, as "Stop fighting amongst our faith" would be a disaster since it forces 10T peace. It's annoying to lose all war success, but also Wang should break free and things will be easier.

Wang broke free as expected and I re-declared on Genghis 940AD. Ignored New Sarai as it's slow to reach and just pushed towards NE. No sign of anything that stops me yet. Karakorum had Mids, so I wanted to test rush-buying and switched into US. @krikav I don't think it works as you think it does? Any multiplier buildings have no effect on the cost. Once you have invested, the cost to finish the build is 3*, same with or without a forge. I don't have many forges, but I chose to not rush-buy in them and spent my money on ~3 cavalries per turn mostly in cities that have barracks. I didn't bother building them in captured cities really, just better to get units as most are mopping up weakened enemies anyway.

3T later finally see his stack and it could inflict some damage to me. It's important to get it into open field and be the aggressor (cavalries have 30% retreat, no defence bonuses). Him putting that stack to Shushan is an issue, so I had to come up with a trick.

Bribed Hammurabi to make peace with GK for paper, then gift Shushan to Hammurabi. Sacrificed workers (no use for them anyway), which was a bit unnecessary though. Anyway, his main stack moved to the forest so I gained a full turn of healing and moving more troops to Samarqand. Next turn he moves 1W and I wipe most of his stack out with barely any losses and he's willing to capitulate (1020AD). Declare on Hammurabi immediately and next turn I can move into position to attack.

Mainly HAs, some bowmen and a single longbow. Ok buddy, you've been having a hard time this game I guess. I didn't even need to take the city, just win some battles and capitulate when he is willing to talk (1050AD). Declare on Wang immediately, take one city and he is done next turn (1060AD). I didn't really need to stop to heal a lot in this game, though I had a super-healer chariot. My best cavalries were also reaching march, which makes things a bit easier. Declare on Joao 1080AD.

These were the typical odds in every war, first attacker roughly 80% (to survive) so with this amount of units poor AIs have no chance. Also note I did really kill of the research and used all money to buy more cavs. More power, more attackers, everything is easier.

After Lisbon Joao was done (1110 AD).

Immediately declare on Washington with a stack I had prepared in the core area. Captured cities are building wealth.

Took Bantu, killed some stray units and he was done (1130AD).

So 1140AD victory it is, both conquest and domination reached on the same turn.

So the war phase in total lasted 620AD-1130AD, that's 32 turns to capitulate 6 AI. I always try to preach for swift, efficient wars and I think I managed to do exactly that.

Thanks for the game, AcaMetis, had a blast!

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Nice! Thats how it's done!
Quick, swift and efficient, well done!


Rushbuying is almost completely new to me, but I have learned that one doesn't get multipliers for hammers. So if one goes mass cottages spam and aim for rushbuying, then only banks/grocers/markets are relevant really.
Have I written contrary somewhere?

 

[sampsa]

@krikav

Spoiler :

@sampsa

Nice! Thats how it's done!
Quick, swift and efficient, well done!


Rushbuying is almost completely new to me, but I have learned that one doesn't get multipliers for hammers. So if one goes mass cottages spam and aim for rushbuying, then only banks/grocers/markets are relevant really.
Have I written contrary somewhere?

Ah yes, my bad. Thought you rushed factories and plants, but it was the opposite - your rushed -multiplier buildings! I thought the win is so near that I ignored even them, though did whip a stock exchange in capital as couldn't multi-pop whip cavalries with all those -bonuses and wanted to get rid of water tiles.

Probably won't be the last time I use US though, as also those towns with an extra at least look nice.

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Same here! It is as you say, at some points there is no need for more tech really (perhaps for the entire game, or perhaps just for a period), having a nifty tool that can convert gold -> hammers is very nice then.
I'm not sure why I have ignored it so long... Some weird prejudice probably. Seeing it as a suboptimal and/or crude approach that was advocated in misguided strategies of ages past.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Needing to go Democracy if you don't have Mids (or captured it early) is one reason, I imagine, as getting an expensive dead-end tech when you're on a timer to get an army assembled to hit AIs before they get Rifles/vassals/what have you is less than ideal. And even than, if you want to mature some more cottages quickly you'd need Emancipation, which definitely requires Democracy. Needing to go Communism for Kremlin to get better (decent?) conversion rates is another major delay as well. All told I'd say that whipping(/drafting?) is simply faster than rush-buying in terms of getting boots (or hooves) on the ground, especially when you're not FIN and start with double-digit floodplains and riverside tiles.

Of course the flipside is that rush-buying involves maintaining a very healthy and stable core which will easily support your economy throughout multiple wars and massive conquests, even more so if you went State Property with Kremlin, and stuff like AP votes are much less scary when you've got 20-size cities supplying a number of votes for you to throw around. Also, UN resolutions are a joke when you're running Universal Suffrage/Free Speech/Emancipation anyway, and while not necessarily ideal you could probably do worse than Environmentalism (massive cities can probably benefit from +6, and +2 for windmills is nice when you've probably got more of them than Mines) and Free Religion (+ per religion isn't horrible when mounting war weariness, though you'd probably prefer Theocracy for the +2xp). Also, say that an AI gets some kind of superior unit that forces you to go back to teching, size 20 cities working US/FS/PP Towns will probably do a better job of that than size 6 cities that can barely work decent non-food tiles before drowning in whipping anger.

I'd say that rush-buying is the slow and steady approach to whipping's fast and loose. And speed was probably valued higher than consistency, especially before now known and utilized techniques made it easier to handle Deity AIs.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Yes, mostly it has either be later (tanks?) or captured Mids. Also, captured Mids allow Police State. It's possible that in my game it was better to just switch to PS and whip away ruthlessly, even floodplains towns (since without rush-buying, you do absolutely nothing with ). Other ways to rush (whip/draft) are certainly more "efficient", but rush-buying is the only use for in some situations.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

You said...

there is just not much even an unit spammer deity AI can do to 30 cavalry if he doesn't even have gunpowder.

I never managed to win any war against any Deity AI. (My Deity wins were all totally peaceful). I thought they produced at 60% and pay very little maintenance costs? Technology aside, what was the numerical difference?

 

[sampsa]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

Good question. Opened the 800AD autosave (date of attack) and checked his army in worldbuilder. I counted roughly 85 units inside his own borders and around 25 units fighting in Babylon. I declared with 24 cavalry and it was like cutting butter with a hot knife. With deity bonuses, he can one-turn knights/elephants in many cities. But that doesn't matter so much with 2-movers, since you can capture those cities in rapid fashion. And of course, I'm building reinforcements from every city as fast as I can.

I don't think the hard part was winning the war though, it was getting to a position with a huge tech lead (having rifling when nearly everyone lacks gunpowder). That requires good empire management skills, something that many players don't feel like delving into.

 

[Excal]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

I don't think the hard part was winning the war though, it was getting to a position with a huge tech lead (having rifling when nearly everyone lacks gunpowder). That requires good empire management skills, something that many players don't feel like delving into.

Spoiler :

Can you elaborate on HowTo achieve such strong tech lead ? (genuinely interested in trying to get early cuirs date)
certainly very strong capital from what I can see
any special bulbs ?
how many turns GAge ?
any other tips/tricks ?
any other help appreciated

 

[sampsa]

@Excal

Spoiler :

Nothing out of the ordinary. There are some details that I might have already forgotten in earlier turnset reports.

Get those floodplains cities up asap (even working unimproved floodplains is good), get monarchy, build 15 warriors to keep cities happy. Win music, start golden age when you have 3 cities with good -resources at / cap and aim to get 3 GS out. After that, -points towards GM. Tech towards nationalism for Taj. Hopefully you have a city with some forest left and can get marble somehow, otherwise Taj isn't worth it. In between these golden ages grow as much as you can. I built barely any buildings, like 3 forges and stables, but I think all cities had barracks pre-attack. When I had the needed techs (compass, paper) double bulbed education and single bulbed liberalism (need to avoid machinery for this). I took MilTrad with liberalism, though case could be made for trying to get something bigger. Just wanted to do it safely. Then Taj golden age was in, got out two GMs (I think) and one GS to bulb printing press (on the way to rifling). Tech gunpowder, then get guilds-banking somehow (I think self-researched both, not sure), then RP-rifling and teching is done.

 

[krikav]

@Excal

Spoiler :

Here on this map it's mostly about being Fin, and letting your cities grow large so you work many tiles.


Other than that, one has to be willing and daring to compromise long term, to achieve a stronger position short term.
@sampsa often avoids an academy in favour of more early bulbs and more early GAs for example, a move that most likely would put him in a worse position at say... T180-T220? But the move can also result in a 5-10 turn earlier attack date, and then the highly theoretical T220 position is suddenly completely irrelevant.
There are many nuances in achieving early cuirs, and all maps are slightly different and there really isn't any one ultimate recipie that suits all.

In some sort of record run, you do a GA with the music artist, and bulb philosophy, 2 into education, 1 into lib, and you have 2-3 Gmerchants so you get a huge load of cash so you can upgrade 30HAs to cuirs and just go!

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Ah yes, forgot about one part that krikav mentioned - upgrading. Tried to get as many HA/elephants out as I can before connecting iron to upgrade them with the GM cash. Think I upgraded ~15 to cuirs, then after capping Gilga to cavalry. It's expensive, but that's what those GM missions are for.

edit: Oh also, maybe I could've gotten MoM if I had realized it isn't gone. This might mean skipping Taj though.

 

[sampsa]

I also think one trap to fall into is UU/UB... Even if it's special only for your civ, it doesn't mean you need to build them. I didn't get a single redcoat because I didn't see what I can achieve with them, compared to cavalry which move at double speed. Whipped a stock exchange in capital pretty much just because it was hard to control it's growth otherwise.

 

[krikav]

Worth to mention regarding upgrades too...
It's no magic involved, and in some games upgrading is just bad.

When doing unit upgrades, we get something aproximating 3-3.5 gold paid, for each hammer gained, not something that really looks tempting just looking at the raw numbers.
We do it, because we can get a huge punch instantly. When we do a GMerch trade mission we get 1300-1700g, "theoretical long term" that cash would probably be best used to just run deficit research for 10-20 turns ahead.

But if we instead upgrade 10 HAs with that cash and send those to the battlefield, those 1700g are not standing idle in our empires treasure, but is instead alive and gaining us immediate benefits capturing cities for us.

 

[shakabrade]

Deity to 25AD where I retire in winning position:

This one was interesting from the start in terms where to settle and such. Settling the Ivory gives early production, but settling in place allows for a better second city as London can reveal all the good tiles with culture before T50. Anyway, I went with settling on Ivory, figuring that maybe extra continuous production would make me safer against barbs and also saves 4 worker turns, which is almost a cottage.

Spoiler :

The other important thing was getting the important city spots. For me, the obvious GP farm is across the London, and that site also has Rice and Clams plus 3 Fish from London. I managed to get there just before Gilgamesh and I also went farther East to grab the Gold/Rice/Horse site. Also just in time before Genghis (he was 4-5 turns away from it). Genghis attacked WK early but I also knew that Gilgamesh with no religion is gonna attack me at some point and therefore I settled 7 cities and went for Elepult. The bpt was surreal for the whole game. I think I was the leader most of the time. Before attacking Gilga, I practically gifted him Aesthetics because he is so prone to building wonders and he had Marble. Building wonders means less units. And means wonders. Or failgold to trade for when we get the Currency.

Some pictures:

Spoiler :

End notes:
Everything went really well. I got some wonders, and some more than expected (I really adore MoM). I only didn't get Mids from the wonders I cherish. So, the other guys are relatively advanced, except vulnerable and hopeless GK.

My end bpt is not actually over 631. It is just the petty benchmark I do around 1AD. The game where I have it over 300 is considered to be easy. Sustainalble bpt is 491 bpt when I hire all the specialists in GP Farms and return production to Forges. But it hurts to hire specialists over 5 coasts (Colossus+Gage+Fin). Due to the shape of this map, Cuir/Cavs could end it before 1000AD but I lack the motivation due to the almost similar Stalin map I played last weekend.

Can any kind soul tell about some more challenging map lately but with people participating? And not All War? I could go and watch the threads, but that also means that I'd see stuff I should not see.

 

[krikav]

@shakabrade
There have been quite a few maps in NC lately that are easy if one plays them correcly.
But in reality all maps can present really tough challenges if one doesn't listen to the map and instead try to force ones preconception upon them.

I think you have to go back to NC215 (Hammurabi) for a real challenge, but NC216 (Sully) I recal was kind of tough too.
NC212 was absolutely difficult, but very similar to NC215.
Can't remember participation though.

We have had a drought in participation (or at least postings!), but since @AcaMetis started to mass produce NC maps, people seemed to get into the rythm.

If not NC games I can recommend this one:

It's a iso map that Lain did a letsplay of, I did a writeup of my loss too, but there was no more participation as in people posting, but I think alot of people played the map.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/prepare-to-cringe-bad-maps-deity.647427/page-6#post-15508937

And this one:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/another-brennus-game.654135/
Can't really tell if it's extremly tough or not, think only I played it, but I had big problems at least, and from peoples comments it seem like others thought it was tough too.

 

[shakabrade]

Thanks @krikav for your selection of the maps. I'll give a try to the most of them, probable quarantine from the next week. :/