Nobles' Club 227: Stalin of Russia

[krikav]

Spoiler warning, (BW is in, but not AH)

Spoiler T28 :

Scout SE->E the gold looks nice but not reason enough to move imho.
Settler revealed dry wheat.
Settlement also revealed forested tundra deer, which made me consider some gambit with BW/masonry first, but the worker can improve the wheat a turn earlier, and neither are kick-ass food sources so I likely want both anyway.
The poor cow might have to wait though.

I soon met Qin and Charly, land seem to be quite crowded.
Following the debate in "2 workers before settler" I decided that this was clearly a situation that called for 2 workers (if not 3!!)
Plan was to chop some agg-warriors and a settler to get that gold online quick.

BW is in, and there is riverside copper and I have Paper-bag-Darius as a close neighbour and I'm agg. *droool*
Now I'm going to chop me a wonder. The "Horde of Axes"-wonder.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Noble NHNE, 3000BC.

Spoiler :

Techs: Animal Husbandary, Bronze Working.


Found Copper in capital. I think I remember how to do an axeman rush. Chop out the barracks and axemen.


Holy Roman Empire to the West, target #1. Holy city and protective archers, need to hit the capital before cultural defense goes from 40% to 60%. Count move distance.


Met scout from Persia very quickly from the South. Suspect came from the South. Met a Chinese warrior much later from the South-East. Not sure where that came from.


Not building Stonehenge. With industrious and stone it is effectively 48 hammers but when the opportunity cost is a warrior and an axeman, I prefer the latter. I now remember why I never build the Stonehenge.

Noble NHNE, 2000BC

Spoiler :

Techs: The Wheel, Agriculture, Masonry, Pottery.


Portugal to the West of HRE. Persia to the south, perfect location for GP farm, target #2.


Do not spend anymore espionage points on HRE and Persia. I am about to conquer them.

Noble NHNE, 1960BC

Spoiler :

HRE build the Stonehenge! Why build it myself?

Noble NHNE, 1680BC

Spoiler :

Tech: Writing.


The next goal is to build The Oracle. Obviously this one you have to build yourself!


Without tribal villages, I didn’t have the gold to deficit research my way into any slingshot. I think I have to settle with a standard classical-era technology.

Noble NHNE, 1600BC

Spoiler :

It looks like I brought too many units but things could have gotten ugly if:

1) They use slavery to rush out an extra protective archer before next turn; AND/OR

2) The city was on a hill; AND/OR

3) The Stonehenge was built a couple of turns earlier and cultural defense increases to 60%.

Noble NHNE, 1440BC

Spoiler :

HRE defeated. Their new city was too small and had to be razed. Took out another axeman before going out.


Was the attack worth it? I lost 4 axemen, worth 140 production. I got one city worth 100 production, and Stonehenge, worth effectively 48 production for me. My descendants can ponder over that one.

 

[krikav]

@Snowbird

Spoiler :

I was planning on going AH after BW, reasoning that there is two nice spots close by for silver+gold, I figured the need for cottages are close to 0 for a long time.
Regarding the granary I'm comming to a opposite conclusion from the same analysis.
Food is scarce, so I won't be whipping much, and cities won't be growing much (most likely to stagnate at quite low size).
Getting more production online with the cows I figured was more important to get more omph early on.

AH->TW (with TW mostly intending to make a road toward Darius.)

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T50 :

Start to scout abit westwards, thinking the holy city is here. Charly has not connected copper yet!

Now, this is an opportunity you don't get often.

I take the workers, and move my scout to take a archer-arrow and save the captures. I thougth it was a city 1W of the scout, but this must be the holy city 1W of the peaks.

Barb action in the east. I stepped up on that hill to take a fight with the injured warrior, then I saw the archers.

I was abit reckless with my scout, but at least now I know he has chariots.

Development is speedy now with the stolen workers. I get my wheat pillaged here though. :'(
AH is in and I'm getting the cows up and running.

A worker approaches the copper, I cross my fingers no chariots are in the fog 2W of him and move down to scare him off. Don't want charly to get metal units if I can prevent it.

The lookout-warrior returned to it's post, and was terrified to see a chariot. It did come out victorious though! Not charlys day today it seems.

I think I settled Novogorod faulty. I didn't think I would go fishing soon, but likely not worth the problems this caused just to get silver online a pair of turns earlier. StPeters is building a settler which I plan to settle in Darius face and gift to Qin. They already hate each other and stiring up more trouble is likely good. Not sure if I can push through on charly right away but will try. If now I'll take a ceasefire when/if I can and just stock up Axes.
Not sure what tech path is best from here on. I kind of want myst->masonry to start generating failgold. But if I'm abit too lucky against charly I might really need pottery in a hurry.
Those gold/silver mines can only carry me so far.

 

[elementoffear]

OK, started this one, love your games @AcaMetis, thank you!

I kinda need some help tough if anyone can shed some wisdom on me :

Spoiler :

Went with common wisdom, settled the stone, built couple more cities, fail gold for wall and Stonehenge, got mids. Went for axes and catapults and as I warred with charlie I researched towards feudalism. Now he is capped (took a ceasefire to re supply fresh catapults as the lines were long, and turned out he had horses so needed a few spears as well). I am not sure what to do next. Portugal is the leading AI, and is close to me. Was thinking about switching to Christianity to better friend China and Persia which are at my back. But I assume axes and catapults will not cut it? What tech/type of war should I aim to? attaching some screens

 

[dr£ddlord]

Spoiler :

Got domination victory on Monarch. Think I cuirasser rushed Darius taking everything he had. Then Charly capitulated after I took a lone city with Cossacks that was seperate from the rest of his territory, Then I spammed Cossacks and cap'd Qin Shi Huang. Then I went to communism and state property and caste system and factories and my workers were building workshops everywhere. I got industrialism and I spammed tanks (with pentagon) and cap'd Joao, Elizabeth. And then I just waited for my cities cultural borders to expand to get the 65% of land domination requirement

 

[Snowbird]

@Snowbird

Spoiler :

Regarding the granary I'm comming to a opposite conclusion from the same analysis.
Food is scarce, so I won't be whipping much, and cities won't be growing much (most likely to stagnate at quite low size).

I think it depends on what one plans to do.

Spoiler :

If surrounding land was a bit better (let say coastal fish would go with silver, or non tundra riverside in the west), pottery into granaries would give a very nice expansion. With silver and gold (and food being low but not tragic) most cities could grow to size six easily.

Ofcourse, riverside copper changes things. I probably had earliest tech extortion in CIV4 on t69... Sailing and Iron Working for cease fire seemed too good to pass. (Honestly I thought he would not agree then I pushed the button).

 

[krikav]

T85, 750bc

Spoiler :

Checking statistics after I barely capture Prague with some bad rolls make me abit weary.
5 axes and a spear for a size3 city (although holy) is a steep price. Ceasefire and regroup.

When he send a settler escorted by two chariots I couldn't keep my cool any longer.
I sent a party southwest too, but after my leading woodies capture 3 workers I feel abit overextended and take a ceasefire again.
Darius and Joao won't like me, but Qin doesn't mind.

Apparantly I forgot to revolt to slavery earlier.
Kill count T73 is 16 chariots and 3 archers! And I have 13 eager and live axes.

10 axes get a bump from 3xp to 5xp.
Here I demand archery from Darius to get a ceasefire, Charly and Darius have alfabet and I don't want to deal with a swarm of immortals while I dance with Charly.

Archer moving out of his hilled city when a attackforce is ready. Thanks charly, I don't mind but that wasn't really wise, was it?
I also get payback for my bad rolls in Prague early on, when the first brave axe charging Achen wins at 8% odds!

I think that deal is lovely Charly!

Should probably have prioritized more hammers into pyramids, they went this turn and I only got 150 failgold. But that and the conquest gold carries me to aestethics.
In a classic situation now when I exit the mental haze of a war and wonder what on earth has been going on in my cities.

Still have some units, but probably I need catapults to continue now. Also should pay attention to the economic recovery now.

Last AI is the hindu founder, someone who starts with mining and build SH early on.
Wang/Pacal/Asoka/Gandhi perhaps?

 

[Snowbird]

T69 {on cease fire}

Spoiler :

So, T28 reevaluated... land sucks and copper is connected without roads.

I did some switch gymnastics (made sense at that point). Dropped chop and whip into worker, overflowing into settler. With copper and a plan for axes worker seemed more urgent.
Techwise sticked with Wheel (cows are nice, but I'd rather produce few axes with second city).

Darius seriously asked for axe rush...

That was his last city until T60+... what on Earth he was doing? Replacing scouts?
(china built GWall, Oracle, Great Lighthouse)

I also produced third worker (that one was supposed to actually make improvements). Rest tech path -- AH>Pottery>Fishing(should have done before Pottery)>Writing (partial). I think switching too Masonry might make some sense.

I had a chance to steal worker

but decided I'd rather see less archers. In a few turns Darius had Writing so that warior scouted him a bit before being deleted. Another warrior grabbed Medic1 and joined axes (he also managed to kill few 0.2 strength units, saving some movement for axes). In the end he got GG attached too (Medic3+extra movement for the future action). Probably I should promote him.

Ofcourse, removing fogbusters managed to produce barb spear...

Managed to cut iron early enough and horses actually helped(less archers). Good thing these were not in opposite places. Horses somewhat surprised me (apparently he built fort on them).


So, after getting Persepolis, I've tried checking what he would give for Peace (2/3 of writing, sailing and archery was the offer, I tried sailing+IW+something and +something part was not happening). I still think sailing+IW is great (writing maybe was better short term?)
(statistically it looks like 4 immortals and 9 archers (one barb archer I think) killed, while loosing 7 axes).

Land overview -- Holy Rome can have that western tundra as far as I am concerned.


I need to think about further plans. Mids would be nice even if for failgold and I possibly could swap Masonry for Mysticism with Darius before redeclaring. Monument would be nice for crab/fish/horses/marble city, but all resources are in second ring. Capitol produced settler, that one goes for already mined silver, steal wheat and produces it's own workboat. Long term Aesthetics probably makes sense if I am going for marble site.
Worker management -- no clue at the moment. Well, again I need to see how many workers I'll have after killing Persia.

 

[krikav]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

Oh, Hannibal was the last AI. Not the one I would have guessed!

I think it was a mistake to take Charly as a vassal, I don't think he will contribute much to your efforts and his pressence will complicate diplomacy abit.
But perhaps if you gift back Maniz to him, he will push Joao away abit and possibly act as a shield later on.
Possibly also give him back Prague... But you likely want that yourself too.

Going for Joao seems ambitious, he looks strong and your economy is in pretty bad shape right now.
You have catapults and a doomstack of catapults+axes+longbows should be able to handle almost anything.
Not sure feudalism was the right choice, but it doesn't hurt to have it now! I hope you are in vassalage?

I would buddy up with Joao as best it could be done, keep OB and hope for hindu spread, and make sure to be in HR. If you can make Charly do this too as the attitude toward you is the average of you and your vassals, so if Joao likes you but not Charly, he doesn't like you really.

I think Perisa would probalby be the best target, and depending on how large your army is at the moment you can either just go right away, or stock up abit.
If you want to linger in warfare (and thats certainly fun!) a possible techpath forward could go through MC->Machinery->Guilds. That would give you half-price forges everywhere (nice happines too!) then xbows which make your stack super resiliant against all melee counters.
Then you can top that off with knights in shiny armor!
But getting to guilds requires quite alot of teching power though.

A completely different approach is to just cool down and build up the economy and use remaining units as military police to grow large cities while teching toward cuirs and eventually cossacks.

 

[elementoffear]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

Oh, Hannibal was the last AI. Not the one I would have guessed!

I think it was a mistake to take Charly as a vassal, I don't think he will contribute much to your efforts and his pressence will complicate diplomacy abit.
But perhaps if you gift back Maniz to him, he will push Joao away abit and possibly act as a shield later on.
Possibly also give him back Prague... But you likely want that yourself too.

Going for Joao seems ambitious, he looks strong and your economy is in pretty bad shape right now.
You have catapults and a doomstack of catapults+axes+longbows should be able to handle almost anything.
Not sure feudalism was the right choice, but it doesn't hurt to have it now! I hope you are in vassalage?

I would buddy up with Joao as best it could be done, keep OB and hope for hindu spread, and make sure to be in HR. If you can make Charly do this too as the attitude toward you is the average of you and your vassals, so if Joao likes you but not Charly, he doesn't like you really.

I think Perisa would probalby be the best target, and depending on how large your army is at the moment you can either just go right away, or stock up abit.
If you want to linger in warfare (and thats certainly fun!) a possible techpath forward could go through MC->Machinery->Guilds. That would give you half-price forges everywhere (nice happines too!) then xbows which make your stack super resiliant against all melee counters.
Then you can top that off with knights in shiny armor!
But getting to guilds requires quite alot of teching power though.

A completely different approach is to just cool down and build up the economy and use remaining units as military police to grow large cities while teching toward cuirs and eventually cossacks.

Well @krikav

Spoiler :

Bottom like it sounds like axes and catapults will not cut it, and yeah my economy sucks, I teched towards vassalge to cap charlie, but probably should have just killed him, Im in a golden age so will switch and relax

thanks!

 

[krikav]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

In theory, axes and catapults can topple any foe. But if you are up against someone thats severely technologically superior, you need such numbers that it starts to border the absurd.
But pushing onwards with a construction attack even when longbows start to appear is common. One just have to be willing and able to pay up alot of catapults to inflict enough collateral damage.

Having a crappy economy after a conquest is perfecly natural too, you have gotten currency though which usually alleviates most problems.

 

[elementoffear]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

In theory, axes and catapults can topple any foe. But if you are up against someone thats severely technologically superior, you need such numbers that it starts to border the absurd.
But pushing onwards with a construction attack even when longbows start to appear is common. One just have to be willing and able to pay up alot of catapults to inflict enough collateral damage.

Having a crappy economy after a conquest is perfecly natural too, you have gotten currency though which usually alleviates most problems.

@krikav , You are right obviously about size matters.... and scratch my last reply

Spoiler :

I couldn't help myself, consolidating next to Persia a realized my stack was huge so capped them as well , not even doing too badly with tech. What I did do is trade with Charlie and have him stop trades with everyone else so I kinda have a nice vassal now to work with as he doesn't have lots of other options .. can i resist the urge to try China now?

 

[krikav]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

Nice! Have Joao been plotting a long time? Might need to prepare some for a DoW from him too at some point.

 

[elementoffear]

@elementoffear

Spoiler :

Nice! Have Joao been plotting a long time? Might need to prepare some for a DoW from him too at some point.

@krikav ,

Spoiler :

He didn't DOW anyone so I dont know. And I couldn't hold it so took china which was hard with their chu-ko-nu's, but managed, after that went Cossacks and ran through Lizzy and Hannibal, they capped after one city. Didn't manage to take the last AI but Lizzy built UN and so after razing a few of joao cities (btw cant rebuild a wonder after its been razed, didn't know that), won diplomatic. Nice map, and early war was definately the way to go here.

 

[Snowbird]

to T84

Spoiler :

In short killed Darius, built Mids - so with size, upcoming representation, writing teched.... I on't feel like I need to play it out. (lots of scientists, lots of bulbs, gunpowder based horse units with military state...).

Pics with some comments:

Some things get as planned:

It does hit on tech trade count, but getting marble will be nice. Two unmet Ai's at the point (Jao and something else).

Some things not exactly...

The setller party is not a problem, got scared of southern axe... Darius flipping Chinese city with chinese iron mine got me worried. A few turns earlier and it might have been really ugly.

One wonder China did not bother with...


End of Darius in Chengdu... (Charlie is sending missionaries towards China, guess we would be one nice Buddhist family).


Happy city of Persepolis -- about to whip a settler. (I thought PH west of persepolis, but double gems are probably worth it with IW present - would pay for itself + happiness for all - with representation that is a lot of happiness)


Overview:


Project in works... guess i should named it Norilsk or something like that.

I hate to poop on the party, but given multiple comments on the map being excellent... why do you consider it being at least good?

Spoiler :

Looks pretty much as an axe rush simulator... if rush is too late and player runs in opposing axes -- game over, idiot next door builds wonders/techs alpha -- happy snowball.
IMHO, very luck based (on higher difficulties) and not much other options (tundra cottages...).

 

[krikav]

@Snowbird

Spoiler :

An early rush is always a gamble. But so is most things in this game. Just expanding peacefully is a another type of gamble.
If you happen to get a super quick start with early accessable commerce, plentyful forets and BFC copper, then an axerush is most probably the least risky path forward.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Truthfully? Of the maps I considered this one was the easiest, and the one most open to different playstyles. Another map I rolled had you start sandwiched between HC and I think Roosevelt (both IND, both with BFC Stone) with not enough food around you to even justify trying for Mids regardless of everything else, another map would have been an iso map with just garbage all around that'd be disappointing even by Lain's standards, and one where you had a ton of forests and basically nothing else. This map isn't the Victoria map in terms of delicious land and options available, but at least it's enough to give you an option. The other maps wouldn't have, which is why I went with this one.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T98 Economic recovery :

Breaking my Aestethics monopoly right away, I'm about to clearcut all of charlys land into whatever wonder with multiplier I can get my hands on.

Stealing forests before they get under Darius culture. Trying to set me up for a monarchy trade next. I really want/need currency but hope that I can get it too, darius already have it and Qin is going for it so should become tradeable.
Also... Darius has longbows. Likely no more war for me for a while.

Plundering almost everything outside of culture. Counted now and over the last few turns I got 147g from the surroundings of Vienna alone, darely needed funds when you are struggeling for cash.

Charly peacevassals to Darius. I don't my culture situation at all here. I will lose those floodplains and silver once Augsburg pops borders.
I get the culturebuildings I can in Prague, as it has a fighting chance to eventually reclaim the silver and it's floodplains as it already has +5 culture from being holy city.
I was planning on getting monarchy+monotheism from Elizabeth as she was lacking both aestethics and maths, but that plan didn't work out.

I get monarchy T94, also Joao finishes MoM in his pyramids city... I want that!

Was hoping Joao would not get Monarchy inbetween turns here. I kind of need currency.
-14gpt at 0% and my coffers are almost empty.
Ofcourse Joao gets monarchy and I get nothing.

T96 I'm almost in strike, but I get 95g from Qin for polytheism. (Qin must have done a trade mission as he has 500+g) I put all that cash into currency but...
Not enough apparantly.
Now I work coast and all commerce tiles I have for a turn. I also trade for monotheism with Elizabeth risking "Traded with worst enemy" with qin.

And Augsburg pops borders. :<

Nothing bad happends, and next turn I get 120g from Qin for monotheism, and I get Currency for aestethics+mono from Joao.
Woo hoo!!

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T98 situation :

Not sure I like how this rush panned out.
My empire is in a very weird shape and has high distance maintenence.
I'm behind in GPGeneration (Working on my first now!).
Have no wonders and pretty meager infrastructure.
I can't work the crabs (workboat in harbour due to two barb galleys Darius refues to take care of.).
But I'm at tech parity and I have land, so should probably be happy.
Now I plan to tech CoL as only Joao has it, and then perhaps revolt. (Have done no switch yet, only to slavery)
HR+Caste perhaps? I don't need to whip much more once vienna does a 2pop whip of it's granary and Nuremburg it's lighthouse.
I want to get a GSci out asap to bulb philosophy.
I think I have around 500g in failgold waiting in Shadagon paya, and once that is gone I'll continue with Chicen Itza.
A shame I missed out on the marble, but even without marble I kind of think that Cuirs are the way to go next, but situation is unstable with alot of tensions between me and also between many of the AIs.
Hannibal is plotting and it's almost certainly Elizabeth whom many dislike.
I opened borders with her to get my worker-scout get past, but I should close borders with her as soon as I can again so I don't have to decline requests from Hannibal. Will also bet 1g from her if Hannibal declares I think.