Nobles' Club 231: Joao II of Portugal

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Joao II of Portugal, whom we last played in NC 198. The Portuguese start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Joao II is Expansive and Imperialistic. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% bonus to Settler production. Note that excess directly converted to won't benefit from either bonus.
  
• The UB: The Feitoria, a Customs House that adds +1 to all of a city's water tiles. It's a nicer bonus on paper than in practice, because by the time that you've researched Economics you really shouldn't be looking forward to investing three (base) Granaries worth of so you can upgrade to some number of 23 Coast, and worse, 22 Ocean tiles.
  
• The UU: The Carrack, a Caravel that can transport any two land units instead of one Great Person, Spy, Missionary or Scout/Explorer. Carracks allow you to transport units like Settlers or military over the oceans before researching Astronomy, which allows you to grab unclaimed islands or launch naval invasions before anyone else could even think about doing so. Of course in practice the latter option is a bit impractical, both due to the logistics involved and because oversea colonies without Astronomy trade routes are expensive, but if you happen to come across someone like Gandhi hoarding religious shrines...

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, High Sealevel, Temperate Climate.

Spoiler edits :

Swapped the player's starting position with an AI, and also swapped some resources around to make sure AIs had nearby strategic resources.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 231 Joao Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Well, that looks like either SIP or settle 1E, since I don't see any convincing reason to move off the coast or away from fresh water (not that we couldn't, as Joao is Expansive, but +2 is still better than no +2). I'd say move the Warrior 1SE to check out that conspicuously open hill, and if there's something there settle 1E to claim it. If there isn't...SIP so an automatically connected second city can be placed on the hill, or the tile south of it? Settle 1E anyway? I'm not sure what the best approach is in that case. What do the experts think ?

 

[Snowbird]

Well, that looks like either SIP or settle 1E, since I don't see any convincing reason to move off the coast or away from fresh water

Don't know... i'd probably wander for 3-4 turns looking for a spot which has actual food sources. If none found just quit. In general, I think it is a healthy approach to plain cow/clam/crab starts... saves a lot frustration long term.

 

[AcaMetis]

Is double Clam really that bad, even when you start with Fishing/Mining ?

 

[Jellybug]

When you meet this guy he always looks at his finger nails. Big Jo is a foppy boi

 

[sampsa]

It's not a horrible start for Joao. Can for example go boat first, grow to 2 and whip worker, which should time nicely with BW.

 

[dr£ddlord]

Spoiler :

played up to Optics and its a hard map

 

[yyeah]

@sampsa
1E looks like good spot bulid work boat while working 3 1 then 3 its a alternative to BW whip dont whitch is better tbh.

 

[Snowbird]

Is double Clam really that bad, even when you start with Fishing/Mining ?

i don't think second clam changes much if anything in start eval...

I did my scouting... (heavy spoilers bellow).

Spoiler :

I guess this is the map for carracks, no?

I don't think it is very doable on Deity. It is too little food/production to produce navy and the units, espeacially since one would need carrack per each two units. With full map knowledge (I looked at Worldbuilder)... maybe settle some loose islands and try Globe based drafting with slower game speed.

 

[Jellybug]

Spoiler :

Wiiiiiillsoooooooon

 

[sampsa]

on map

Spoiler :

I think these NC maps tend to be a bit too polarized? It's either a great start (=easy) or something horrible like this one. I like the in-between games most.

 

[AcaMetis]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

I can see that. Unfortunately this was the most "in-between" map worth putting up that the game decided to give me. I had many starts that were landlocked on massive pangaeas (no opportunity to use Fishing, let stand the UU/UB, and usually with either triple+ Gold/gems or absolutely nothing at all) or that were something like "semi-iso with a very distant and land blessed Monty". I'm not saying this map is easy, but it's not the hardest one I looked at either.

I think my mistake was going with a Fractal mapscript, to be honest. I didn't want to do a repeat of the previous Joao NC, which used a Terra mapscript IIRC, but some kind of islands map would have worked a lot better for getting use out of the UB/UU. Fractal just doesn't have enough unclaimed islands to make it really meaningful, and getting a situation where such an island was the player's only reasonable source of, say, Iron or Horse was even more improbable.

 

[Fippy]

I think this map lacks some excitement, nothing you can go for or cities you consider, spots are obvious and then it's mostly running thru turns.

 

[Wrathful]

Here's my miserable attempt of this rather bleak map.

Spoiler :

I thought about settling 1E but decided against it out of fear of ruining riverside copper or horse that might be on that tile. Before settling I did move the warrior southeast to check the hill tile. I found nothing, so SIP it is. Now I want to do this and tech BW:

Improve the clam, then grow to size 2 and whip a worker. Joao's starting techs seem quite nice here.

At T5 it's already looking a bit uncomfortable. It seems like isolation given the tundra to the north.

Ok, so there has to be an island or something, right? Anything?

Finished BW on T16. Revolted to slavery. My capital grew to size two on a work boat, and I have some hammers invested in the worker. I think one more turn is needed before I can whip it.

After BW I went for The Wheel. I think it's going to be a straight path to Writing from here, then Monarchy for happiness, then Optics. You could maybe make an argument for the Great Lighthouse, but with so little land and no islands I don't think it's worth it.

Actually, at some point I'll need AH for the sheep, which means I need Hunting as well. Agriculture will be skipped for sure. I wonder if AH could be skipped as well? It's only one sheep...and horses possibly. Oh, and there isn't any copper by the way.

At T20 the worker is produced and begins chopping duty. The first chop finished my second work boat; subsequent chops will go into settlers.

The work boat will be a bit late here. I think I'll two-pop whip the next settler.

Oporto whipped a granary and used the overflow + a chop to get out a boat for the third city. Meanwhile, Lisbon used the granary overflow to get out a warrior for happiness.

That leaves one city to work a farmed flood plain...and nothing else.

I really am thinking about skipping AH here. It's 220 beakers for 2 food. And the health, yeah, but Joao is expansive.

In a rather odd twist of fate, the Oracle got built before Stonehenge, so I was able to get some failgold from whip overflow. The last settler will be out next turn for the flood plain spot. And we're going full blast for Monarchy now.

I just realized that I could (and should) have been working scientists in Oporto all this time. Oh well.

My worker goes to farm the flood plain for my next city...and then I realize that I can't farm anything without Agriculture. Ok, I'll just cottage it instead.

I kind of lost hope as time went on. With so little land, I don't see how I can reach Optics in any reasonable timeframe, let alone train an army to take out anyone.

Anyway, I reached Monarchy on T71. I think I'll tech Iron Working next to check for iron.

Turns out we do have iron here. Well, one less thing to worry about I suppose.

Although I barely make any beakers, my costs are very low as well. Who knows, maybe I can pull something off here.

This isn't the most illustrious job for a great scientist:

At T101 now and it's not looking great. In retrospect I should probably have teched Agri and AH and settled five cities. One would go NE of the sheep, and I would grab the northern fish with a city 1SE of Gumares.

No great generals have been born by the way. I forgot to check for Mansa Musa at the start of the game.

And finally, at 150 AD, I reached Optics. I cold-whipped Carracks in Lisbon and Gumares. I also got one in Coimbra by whipping a harbor the previous turn and chopping.

Stopping here for now. At this point making it to Astro shouldn't be an issue, but after that I really have no idea how to proceed. It all depends on the AI situation of course. I'm thinking that I can get Engineering in trade, bulb Chemistry, and somehow crawl my way to Steel. With that I can launch an attack on someone with cannons and drafted macemen. Oporto is a good Globe Theater spot, and surely there's more land I can settle.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

***Attempt #1 lasted until BC1080***

Spoiler :

We are completely isolated. Players would have already found out before BC3000. I did not gain additional map knowledge by restarting. No resources were revealed, except for the fact that there is no copper but I will get bronze working anyway. No AIs were met.

Monarch, no huts no events, BC4000 - - AD0500

Spoiler :

Basically I changed my mind and decided to build the Oracle in the same city as my forge.

I will find a use for a Great Prophet should I get one.

Which of course I did. The prophet sent by the Great Creator Whale speak of lands beyond the waters inhabited by different peoples.

Time to spread the word.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Monarch, no huts no events, AD0500 - - AD1500. The full power of the Portuguese UU, the carracks.

Spoiler :

Keep a monopoly on theology for as long as possible, and then get all the +4 “Our trade relations have been fair and forthright” modifiers.

Now or never. Too close to call.

Is it going to work?

Just. Look at the votes! The population in cities on the outlying islands made the difference.

 

[Snowbird]

For ones not in masochistic mood... I suggest map in the zip bellow. It is rather similar

Spoiler :

isolated start - but more land, some happy resources and better suited for carracks

Spoiler :

there ought to be couple AI's with not much land rather close, or you can establish routes without Astro --- drop settler on carrack and build culture from other side -- I think that is only thing carrack is actually good for

It is mostly unedited map - I sank one minor desert island and painted in another to make my point about carrack usefulness.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T123 :

I settled in place, workboat with the 3H forested plains hill.
Last turn while building the workboat, you get enough hammers by working a 2F1H tile, giving you 2/22 in the food bank, that shaves off a turn reaching pop2 once the boats is out.
At pop2 I started building worker which was whipped as soon as possible.
Teched BW and revolted right away.

Once first worker was out, it just started chopping, first chop went into a worker and then second chop finished that worker.
The two workers then chopped out granary and settler and prepared the road to the city for him (think I roaded all 3 tiles), a chop where ready to finish granary in the new city.

Third city also got a granary very early.

Overall, I ignored cottages for as long as there was forest left to get the first 4 cities up to speed. Coiambra last because it didn't bring any more food in.
Evora was only settled once most other things where done, and workers chould chop out a librar there to reach the fish.
@Wrathful I saw you mention this settling pattern, I'm not 100% it's more effective, but I opted for it to be able to settle 5 decent and 1 half-arsed city on the island, to be able to get globe if necessery.

I went sailing before monarchy because cities will be to slow to grow without, especially capital.

At optics here. Prepared whip of harbour rolling into whip of lighthouse in Guimares for overflow into a Carrack, Coiambra did the same thing except whipped barracks into whipped forge rolling into Carrack.
Oporto finishes a chariot to tag along next turn, and Coiambra gets another Carrack chopped and then a chariot for it.

Capital at optics.

I played on for abit and with almost full map knowledge:

Spoiler :

Don't think i'll play this one out.

I thought this would be a very tough map, but most of the AIs where as starved for land as I where. Gilga looked like he could become a problem though.
Monty and Sitting bull where way behind and where at each others throats, likewise with Mehmed & Saladin.
Double bulb and finished astro at early T130s.
I settled offshore islands and got lvl4 sword with ease against barb city.
Winning lib looks likely and could probably build trebs or HAs in heroic (Coiambra) and upgrade to cannons or cuirs.
I think I would want to whip alot of units overflowing into globe in some city, but mainly to have as a dedicated whipping-city, although draft could be done.

 

[Pangaea]

Are you playing through the catalogue of NC games now, @krikav? Very impressive!

 

[krikav]

I have some cathing up to do!

But no, not playing through every one, I trial out most of them though, looking for either tough starts, or games with much community activity, or iso games.
It's funny how in almost every Iso-gem I find, I see your avatar there @Pangaea, groaning about the horrors of Iso.