Nobles' Club 239: Montezuma of the Aztecs

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Montezuma of Aztec(?), whom we last played in NC 206. The Aztecs start with Hunting and Mysticism.

• Traits: Montezuma is Aggressive and Spiritual. Aggressive gives all Melee and Gunpowder units a free Combat I promotion, and gives a +100% bonus to Barracks and Drydocks. Spiritual allows you to swap state religion/civics without suffering Anarchy, and gives a +100% bonus to all Temples.
  
• The UB: The Sacrificial Altar, a Courthouse which cuts Whip duration in half and costs 25% less to build. Not as great as you'd think, since Slavery has some competition by the time that Code of Laws rolls around, but still a very useful building for any city that's expecting to do some whipping. And with Spiritual you can always do a quick swap back into Slavery whenever the need to whip something arises, so expect to get some good use out of these buildings.
  
• The UU: The Jaguar, a Swordsman that doesn't require Iron to build, and gets -1, -5 cost and a free Woodsman I promotion under a regular swordsman. As far as attacking units go these guys are a straight downgrade from regular swords in all but cost, but some good tricks can be pulled with these units. Given 6xp and an attached Great General a Jaguar can take the full lines of Medic and Woodsman promotions, creating a super medic who's healing prowess borders on the supernatural. Note: Medic III and Woodsman III must be on the same unit in order for their effects to stack. If the promotions are on separate units only the higher of the two bonuses will take effect.

And the prelude to a ton of whi-I mean, the start:

Spoiler map details :

Inland Sea, Medium Sealevel, Tropical climate, +1 AI player to balance the field.

Spoiler edits :

A few resource swaps were made to give AIs nearby strategic resources.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 239 Montezuma Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Well...that sure is a start . I don't see any relevant move that the scout can do other than move 1SE, so that's easy, but beyond that I'm not sure where the Settler should go. 1NE onto the PH seems like the right choice, with wet Corn and wet Wheat we can definitely afford to ixnay the pigs, but I'm not sure about settling towards the edge of the world. What do the experts think?

 

[Whisker]

Realised we're right to the edge of the world and decided to wander southward with settler.

Spoiler :

I must say the surrounding map is redicilously rich in resources.

 

[dankok8]

I plan to play this game. I think Monty's UB is the best in the game if you have food and this capital has enough of it! 5-turn cooldown on whipping is downright scary. Not a fan of the Jaguar on the other hand.

 

[Nick723]

Perhaps settle 2S - gets more river tiles and away from the edge? (And keeps all food)

 

[AcaMetis]

Perhaps settle 2S - gets more river tiles and away from the edge? (And keeps all food)

Definitely the better capitol spot long-term, I'm just not sure about the short term.

 

[migalhone]

Not an expert by any means: Settle in place seems good enough to me.
The amount of available food though

 

[migalhone]

I'm not sure where the Settler should go. 1NE onto the PH seems like the right choice, with wet Corn and wet Wheat we can definitely afford to ixnay the pigs, but I'm not sure about settling towards the edge of the world. What do the experts think?

What advantage would be gained from settling on the hill to the northeast, besides extra production on the city tile?

I know we won't be able to improve the food before researching agriculture, and there will be a border pop in some turns, grabbing the corn.

Still, if we start by producing a worker and researching agriculture, when the worker finishes he'll be able to improve both food tiles right away.

 

[AcaMetis]

+1 in the city centre, kills a 0 tile (not that that's super important when you've got, at minimum, two wet grains in your BFC), spares a forest, has more guaranteed forests to chop (at least seemingly, compared to settling 2S), it's on a hill (barbarians on Inland Sea can be rough), and it doesn't require Animal Husbandry to settle a second city with an improved food resource (can borrow one of the grains). 2S has the river access and riverside tiles, saves a worker turn on improving the grains, gains 5 from working a 211 before the first border pop, can possibly skip The Wheel depending on how far the river goes, but unless there's another grain south along the river it'll need Animal Husbandry to settle a second city south of the river that has/can share a food tile.

Why I'm not sure which option is better is mostly the Animal Husbandry thing. Monty has D-tier starting techs, and bad starting techs is something that's a real stumbling block for me. 2S is the better capitol long term, no question, I'm just not sure if 1NE doesn't play into Monty's (lack of) starting techs better.

...Thinking about it, you could settle your second city on the plains hill and share an agriculture food tile that way, but I wouldn't want to settle towards the edge of the world and that definitely needs The Wheel to connect the two cities. Could skip AH and mine the pig, though, you wouldn't need AH until your third+ city. Definitely enough food to do that with double wet grain. Settle 2S, tech path AG (farm Wheat, farm Corn) -> Mining (mine pigs, maybe another hill?) -> BW (chop!) -> Wheel -> Pottery? I don't know, I never know what to prioritize when I'm given basically no starting techs and an inconveniently placed Animal Husbandry resource.

 

[Fippy]

1ne works against Monty's starting techs, Acametis
You lose 9 by moving, 5 until border pop, pigs for mining (great tile actually without AH).

 

[Imploding]

Looks like a FP and a forested plain(?) south of cap. Would be tempted moving. 2S.
sure.. 15 (16) turn worker but keeps all 3 powertiles. and mining a riverhillpig is good for settlers/worker production.. especially with weak startingtechs.

Or the ph hill and 13 turn worker..

 

[AcaMetis]

1ne works against Monty's starting techs, Acametis
You lose 9 by moving, 5 until border pop, pigs for mining (great tile actually without AH).

SIP would be the fastest way to get tech going, yes . Told you that bad starting tech starts is something I still need help with .

 

[Capellan]

Courthouses are one of the few buildings you need pretty much everywhere, so any UB that improves on them is automatically good gravy, I reckon.

 

[dankok8]

Courthouses are one of the few buildings you need pretty much everywhere, so any UB that improves on them is automatically good gravy, I reckon.

Actually I think Courthouses often aren't worth it. If you're not Organized they cost 120 hammers. Say your city costs 8 maintenance. A courthouse will save you 4 gold per turn when it's built. If you have Currency, the city can build Wealth right now and usually it can be more than 4 gold per turn so you can do better building Wealth and you get the gold now not when the Courthouse is done. In the Kublai no wonder game on Immortal I won Conquest and had some huge cities including on the other continent and didn't build a single Courthouse. Did switch to State Property though which saved me like 200+ gold per turn so that's definitely worth it!

Aztec Altars are kind of the exception. They cost 90 hammers and 5 turns of whip anger is crazy good so I'd definitely build those in cities that have food that I plan to whip. And if you're Organized, you may build them because at that point you can easily whip/chop them.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Agree with Courthouses. Sumerian Ziggurats are another exception. Not only because of 90H, but you can start them at Priesthood, in peaceful games this could hit a time where you normally fall into the production trap. So at least something useful to build

 

[dankok8]

Played to turn 15 (3400 BC). Some early thoughts:

Spoiler :

Decided to SIP.

Stone and Marble both just outside the BFC. Definitely planning to build the Pyramids and REX with the help of whipping. There seems to be some good land and neighbours not in our grill. Also pretty nice neighbours. Bull is very tough to attack without being an era ahead in tech but neither guy declares at Pleased so there shouldn't be a lot of danger if I pursue the builder's paradise. Close Gems and Ivory also make extra happy faces before Calendar so that's also good to see.

 

[Willem V]

Just created an account to tell you Acametis, that I played this out (my first NC/forum game) and had an absolute ball. Thank you for preparing this. I was planning to compare my opening and result with others, so I am a bit sad to see not many picked this up.

In any event, I won at 1210 AD by conquest (immortal, NHNE), so for me a great result. I used the classic techniques, lib MT and cuir rush.

Maybe others will play this the coming days, curious to hear your experiences.

 

[migalhone]

Just created an account to tell you Acametis, that I played this out (my first NC/forum game) and had an absolute ball. Thank you for preparing this. I was planning to compare my opening and result with others, so I am a bit sad to see not many picked this up.

In any event, I won at 1210 AD by conquest (immortal, NHNE), so for me a great result. I used the classic techniques, lib MT and cuir rush.

Maybe others will play this the coming days, curious to hear your experiences.

Welcome! 1210 AD sounds like a fast win, how many turns does that translates into?

I want to jump in NC's games as well but it's hard during the week to sit down and put a few hours into Civ4
At least the weekend is coming

 

[sampsa]

I think an ORG courthouse is a pretty good building, a regular courthouse a pretty bad one, so I'm guessing the 90 courthouses (sac altar, zig) are decent at best. Availability at priesthood compared to CoL doesn't matter at all I'd say, and the smaller -penalty is rarely very significant. All in all, I'd say the possibility of building a sacrificial altar is strategically irrelevant or very close to it.

 

[dankok8]

I think an ORG courthouse is a pretty good building, a regular courthouse a pretty bad one, so I'm guessing the 90 courthouses (sac altar, zig) are decent at best. Availability at priesthood compared to CoL doesn't matter at all I'd say, and the smaller -penalty is rarely very significant. All in all, I'd say the possibility of building a sacrificial altar is strategically irrelevant or very close to it.

Doesn't the 5 turn anger essentially mean you can whip twice as often in a high food city though? It also lets you whip cities that are closer or at the happy cap more? I am curious to know your reasoning.