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Nobles' Club 245: Kublai Khan of Mongolia

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Kublai Khan of Mongolia, whom we last played in NC 209; we last played the Mongolians under Genghis Khan in NC 188. The Mongolians start with Hunting and The Wheel.
    • Traits: Kublai Khan is Aggressive and Creative. Aggressive gives all Melee and Gunpowder units a free Combat I promotion, and gives a +100% :hammers: bonus to Barracks and Drydocks. Creative gives every city +2:culture: for free, and gives a +100% :hammers: bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums.
    • The UB: The Ger, a Stable with +4 exp added to Mounted units rather than +2. Generally not seen as useful for a Keshik rush since quantity is often better than quality in very early rushes, but Elepult can get some good benefit from Gers since one or two cities can focus on pumping out high quality War Elephants while the others pump out a steady stream of Catapults and other miscellaneous units.
    • The UU: The Keshik, a Horse Archer with +1 First Strike instead of FS immunity, and an innate ability to ignore any and all terrain movement costs. Target behind a forested hill which itself is behind a river? Keshiks don't care, they'll cross the river and climb the forested hill with one :move: like it's nothing. Note that this ability is unique to the unit and not a free promotion (in fact Keshiks can't actually get the Mobility promotion at all, largely because it'd be completely useless to them), so the ability will not transfer over if the unit is upgraded.
    And the start:

    Spoiler map details :
    Fractal, Rocky climate, medium sealevel.
    Spoiler edits :
    A fish near your coast was moved to a less ruin-prone position.
    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 245 Kublai Khan Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
    Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
    You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
     

    Attached Files:

    Imploding and migalhone like this.
  2. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    To SIP or to Stone? That is the question. Personally I'm inclined to SIP, mostly because I'm a sucker for river starts, though probably not especially important here with Corn/Sheep, tons of forests and starting with Wheel besides. Settling the Stone for a 2:hammers: city tile is probably the better move? With the Scout moving either 1SW -> 1S(E, probably?) or 1NW -> 1W to scout the coast for potentially ruined seafood?

    What do the experts think :)?
     
  3. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    You can have your cake and eat it too-I think I'd be more inclined to settle on the sheep. I'm not crazy about working PH sheep tiles. Then you still get your river start AND the bonus hammer. On the other hand, we are Mongolia so we will probably go AH early to find horse anyway. It looks like that may be a tundra tile 2S of the stone.

    The bigger question for me is what to do with the scout. 1SW, pause, and then perhaps 1SE? Or just 1SE right onto the grass hill? I suppose going NW x 2 is also an option, though I would be less inclined to walk away from the river AND the stone.
     
  4. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    With the scout I'd be inclined to check out the water, good chance it's coast and if I can avoid ruining seafood I'll probably take that option. Not that I'm in a hurry to go Fishing in addition to everything else this map calls for, but backfill with a food resource is backfill with a food resource, even if it's inconvenient.
     
  5. reflec

    reflec Chieftain

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    Monarch to T160
    Spoiler :

    Didn't play too serious, wanted to mess around and see how aggressively I could rex (thought I was IMP and didn't realise for 40 turns :hammer2:)



    Settled on stone and went AH, maybe if I knew I wasn't IMP I might've gone agriculture, but 2 ah food + horses revealed for keshiks
    also got some gold from hut



    Met isabella
    hut gave me a scout, not really what I'm after here but it's not bad



    Hmm she's pretty close to me, and I have horses nearby...



    Huts are a little dumb....



    I was thinking why can't I whip this settler, then I finally realised I'm not IMP (in my defense my last shadow game I was genghis)



    Stole a worker at the horses



    3 chariots roaming around made short work of barcellona







    figured I may as well finish off isabella so I got hbr and an army of keshiks. She conveniently built the shrine just before I dowed



    Madrid is mine...



    ...and a few turns later shes dead
    May as well kill off roosevelt, he's gotten quite a few wonders but I should be able to easily beat him



    About to dow....



    A few turns later, I've captured philly + washington, razed a 3rd city, and captured a settler, not bad



    T160, roosevelts dead
    Kind of annoying war since he had a lot of spears but pretty straightforward.
    Next step is filling in the entire continent with cities + razing the barb cities that remain.

    My plan was to go for spiral minaret since I have a shrine + stone, probably should've gone optics to meet other civs, but I'm probably so far ahead at this point that it doesn't matter.



    Pretty surprised how easy it was, just won my first monarch game yesterday and I wasn't really trying here :thumbsup:

     
  6. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    Deity, no hut no events part 1

    Spoiler :

    Settle in place.

    Tech research: animal husbandry, mining, bronze working, agriculture, archery, horseback riding, pottery, writing.

    Question: the gold mine allowed the luxury of getting agriculture before horseback riding. But was it the correct choice? Working the corn gave me more production but, since I delayed horseback riding, I ended up training a bunch of chariots. Had I went horseback riding first, I would have had fewer units, but more keshiks, and possibly attack earlier.

    Spoiler :

    Chariots and some Keshiks, ready for war
    BC1000 dow.JPG


    The best part about being able to traverse over hills and forests is to quickly pillage strategic resources
    BC0925 pillage copper.JPG
    No more spears for Spain.


    Some nice city. It's not The Great Lighthouse but I'll take it.
    BC0850 madrid.JPG
    Spain did not have marble. How did they construct the Temple of Artemis without chopping?


    Tech from peace treaty: masonry, metal casting(!), alphabet (partial).
    BC0650 peace treaty.JPG


    Since my leader is creative, the "Motherland" penalty should disappear before the end of the game. So I don't think I'll finish them off.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Having Spain around also means America will be more willing to trade techs once Spain also knows the tech.

    The rush was successful but the game is far from over. America is expanding Wild West style and I don't know what land they have. Judging from religions and world wonders, I have no evidence that the other continents have runaway AIs.


    Plus my economy is not great.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    The city raze was unfortunate. It was a one-pop city in the middle of the arctic with no seafood. I am guessing there is iron in the ice.


     
  7. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Initial thought before settling is that there may be a resource 2E of Settler. It's an unforested grassland.
     
  8. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Played to turn 33 (2680 BC).

    Spoiler :

    Was undecided whether to settle on the Sheep or Stone so moved the Settler to Sheep then used Scout to reveal the tile 2 E of original Settler location. Didn't wanna lose wet Corn or something by moving on the Stone and it didn't cost an extra move. Didn't reveal anything and figured it's probably a strategic resource. Moved Scout south and saw another Cow. Ended up settling on the Stone.

    My tech path is Agri/AH/Mining/BW. The production boost from Pigs and Cows is quite substantial. Cap can finish a Worker in 5 turns and Settler in 8 which is great and compensates for late BW and chopping. Just built the 2nd city to grab the Gold and Horse and it can share the improved Sheep with the capital (which would be impossible with no AH). Not a lot of food for Beshbalik but I'll be happy with this city at size 3 working the Gold mine which will seriously boost my empire's commerce. Considering how close Izzy is, I'm considering Keshik-rushing her and then even continuing on to Roosevelt depending on how far he is. The Gold mine will certainly help get to HBR quickly. Will probably build a 3rd city 1E of Wheat (will also grab Cows and has trade with capital) and may or may not build a 4th city before a rush on Spain. If I have forests left over and the Spain rush is a huge success may sit back and build the Pyramids. Will definitely put a bunch of hammers into failgold though.




     
  9. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    To turn 88 (675 BC). Very cringeworthy!

    Spoiler :

    Almost Zara from AI Survivor level of stuff. Izzy didn't have BW until turn 70 and later. I can tell because she was still in Tribalism and didn't adopt Slavery. That's generally a really bad idea Izzy but especially if you're about to get KESHIK-ed. First border city had 1 Archer and Madrid had 3 Archers. Poor lady couldn't whip and her army was yelling for Spears. Not sure why they couldn't make wooden ones. Anyways state of the empire in 675 BC is below. The whole war took 15 turns. I almost finished the Mids was like 3 turns away but Roosy beat me to it. Got 350ish gold for my trouble and he just put a giant bullseye on his back. Have enough gold to reach Currency so I'll recover. Might just let the veterans heal and unleash them on Roosy who is somewhere close to the north.



     
  10. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    @dankok8
    Spoiler :
    I read your report out of curiosity because I played until 650BC myself. "Spoilers" I also attacked Spain with the keshik. Even the explored map is almost the same.

    The main difference is I signed a peace treaty with Spain for technology.

    Was there something in your situation that warranted finishing them off completely?
     
  11. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @sylvanllewelyn

    Spoiler :

    I didn't sign peace because I didn't have Alphabet. Generally early Alpha is a good move when at war but honestly I didn't think she had any tech of value to give. She just finished BW in 900 BC and went all the way to Monotheism to get Judaism after missing the early religions. Don't think she had Pottery either because she didn't build a single Cottage. Currency is also badly needed for my economy and I just have enough gold reserve to grab it. Think my eco might have crashed quite hard if I went for Alpha instead...
     
  12. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Location:
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    To turn 150 (800 AD).

    Spoiler :

    The continent is massive. If I don't invade Lincoln, he might settle 20 cities peacefully and become a force to be reckoned with. He's piling wonders like mad.

    Anyways I decided to mass more Keshiks and go for a run. Took a bunch of cities the first time, took peace for techs, reinvaded and finally took the prize Washington around 600 AD and took peace for even more techs. The economy is in tatters given the size of the empire but Rep helped the economy a lot! I'm running lots of specialists which will get me Lib before 1000 AD which was unthinkable the way it was 10 turns ago. I can always finish Washington off (he's small, weak, and backwards) but I'll think I'll work on the economy for a while and maybe settle a few jungle cities peacefully to claim some resources then crush him with Cuirs. Domination should be doable with the production edge I will have over everyone. Beelining Communism is the plan after Mil Trad.. Will adopt State Property and build Kremlin (with Stone). Then I can honestly mass Rifles and Cannon against Infantry and still win considering I'll have 30 cities.

    Here is the empire:



     
  13. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    @dankok8
    Spoiler :
    I could not attack America with keshiks. I cannot pay for their maintenance until they reach their target. Just deity difficulty bonuses. It'ts the same Mongol approach though: run over other empires on horseback.


    Deity, no hut no events part 2, up to 1140AD

    Spoiler :
    I kept Spain alive to get technologies in a peace treaty. Also, even small AIs have technologies to trade:
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    I intended to get gold from the unfinished wonder so I can finish currency quickly. I forgot to assign the city to produce something else one turn before it is completed, so currency is further delayed
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Deity, 200BC, The Pyramids. I did not expect that.


    Yet another reason to keep Spain alive is so that they can hold onto land that otherwise America will get. America already has too much land.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    I could not have kept it myself. The location is too far and the maintenance will be too high.


    First contact
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    Maya got optics and yet doesn't know anyone else so far.


    Maya is very advanced, push for liberalism full-on
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG


    The rest contains more map information
    Spoiler :
    Spain finally started to fall behind. They have outlived their usefulness to me. I can have those cities now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


    America is the powerhouse of the game. I need to draw their stacks out of their city by declaring war and then wait for them to advance
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


    Take some cities, raze some cities. With mobility, I could attack one side, then switch to attack another. Peace treaty 10 turns later
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    No technologies. I am glad they even gave me anything for peace. They just got cannons!


    Trade away a monopoly tech for some important things:
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    The Dutch might turn around and sell it to America. I hope they do. The AI does not know how to use cavalry. I rather they did not make cannons.


    America is still the most powerful but they're no longer runaway AI in the traditional sense.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    More importantly, they are on my continent. This makes them more manageable.



     
  14. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    Spoiler :
    Seems like this map played out as I intended :). Early rush with Spain to nab her territory, some sort of action to stop Roosevelt from becoming an unstoppable monster (be it keeping Spain alive as a counter-balance or outright Keshik rushing him directly), and heavy reliance on cheap (Rep, possibly) scientist specialists to keep research going after the economy goes to hell from the early conquests. Beeline to Cuirs/Cavalry/Cannons/insert military breakout unit of your choice here, fully take over Roosevelt's territory, and once you fully control 30+ cities completely unchallenged you've basically won.

    Unless it took so long that one of the other AIs ran away with the game in the meantime, either culturally or technologically, though I'm not sure how high a risk there is of that on Deity. Mister notoriously good techer up there didn't have much of a list on his side of the trade window, so I'm assuming that this map won't be an absolute nightmare to the finish :goodjob:.
     
  15. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    To turn 250 (1700 AD). Close to Domination:

    Spoiler :

    My production is just insane with the entire continent under control.

    Built peacefully and fixed the eco then in 1300's resumed the war against Roosy. It actually took about 30 turns to subdue him since he build a lot of counter units and had many cities on hills. Many Cuirs died to Pikes. He put up exemplary resistance. Then as I was readying a massive fleet of Cannon/Cuirs/Cavs/Rifles for an overseas invasion with the help of the whip, Shaka declared on Willem and since he had pacts with me and Pacal we were all dragged into war against Shaka. I sent my army and immediately took out 2-city Aztec vassal of Shaka then started the offensive on Shaka. He is equal in power to me and just got Rifling despite suffering massive setbacks so it will be a long slog but I got him. Once I take his land I'm clear for Dom.

    Pacal is way ahead in tech and army for that matter but I don't need to war with him to win. Even if he got close to Space I could raze his capital which is coastal. Ditto for Willem.

     
  16. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Fun map! Cool leader.. agg/Cre is a bit of both worlds.. offensive and tech. Free boarders are also super nice!

    Spoiler Deity NH :


    I saw horses i BFC when I was giving the barbs tech..
    Probably would have SiP'ed anyway.. but it made SiP. Agg-> Ah a easy choice.

    Meet Isabell and saw a holy city at my boarder turn 10.. yeah fun stuff! Lets use those keshiks!
    Isabell is probably my favorite target.. She usually gets some wonders and nice religion spread.

    Then I meet Amercia.. and i saw i had quite some nice land.

    I went to 4 cites.. and planned..America had really expanded far away from his home land.. he also had the mids GLH, GW.
    Isabell had nothing.. but could befriend her with religion.

    So I swiched targets and went for a weak america. Attacked him 675 BC while i switched into buddism.
    That really paid of.. got 4 good cities and wonders.. massive land.. got peace for Currency, IW, Masonry, Saling, Poly.
    Then REP+OR.. lets regroup and get some infrastrucure. Really nice with isabell.. she spread religion to all of my cities.
    I grew a bit, finished of america..

    I found Marble on continent.. and i had a couple forrest left in cap. That made me thinking.. about a small tech detour from Bulbing astro.. trough philo.. Nationlism..
    I chained 2 x Golden age + TAJ! Bulbed astro.

    Meet everyone and had good infrastructure.

    Decided that cannons/knights/mace push agains pacall would be nice. He fell fast and had nice lands. kept 5 cites.


    Then William (he capped after i took 4 cities in 2 turns).. gave back everything.
    Picked up a 2 city Monty.. he had really unfortunate lands.. Shaka was plotting on him for about 100 turns..
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Cap
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
    Americas sweet land
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    Tech situation
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    The game right now is.. go home and take Isabell? might be anough to win dom. or fight shaka!
    Isabell is far weaker military vice..

    The pacall city's that I kept.. saw i could culturally controll the area with a couple key spots :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    Trying to finish with style now!

     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
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  17. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    @Imploding

    Spoiler :
    Your approach is my original plan! Spain with shared religion is a gift from the Buddha. I knew that by attacking Spain, America will become strong and drag the whole game down into the mess that I am dealing with right now.

    But my early game step-by-step execution is just not good enough. With my currently level of play, I just cannot make enough keshiks early enough to attack America successfully. I could not have done what you did.


    Deity, no hut no events part 3, up to 1530AD

    Spoiler :
    America has units stacked on my borders and around twice my power rating. This is good news: as long as you can see the AIs power relative to you, it's still alright.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Draft, and then 5 turns later, whip.


    As expected:
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    None too soon. I saw they have machine guns and several railroad tiles. AIs get very nasty once their whole empire is paved with railroads.


    Tactics are not complicated: attack knights and elephants with riflemen, attack cannons with cavalry. The big break is when I catch exposed cannons
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    Like Mongols and their cavalry, they can't hold cities very well, so I had to raze prime cities with lots of sweet wonders. Finally America is at breaking point
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    This is the best deal I can get out of them. They wouldn't even give me all their gold. Fine. I chose not to capitulate, preferring to wipe them out 10 turns later.


    More civic switching. Since I have so many cities, I have to prioritise the most important changes. Free religion for managing diplomacy and free speech because former American lands have a lot of towns.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Notice on the lower right hand corner that Maya and Zulu are plotting. They're probably plotting on me. Can't catch a break.


    As expected:
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG


    That dreadful feeling when a foreign people shows up on your shores with 30 strength steel leviathans:
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    Now if I could just hold. For two centuries.
     
  18. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    Deity, no hut no events part 4, up to 1878AD

    Spoiler :

    Fighting destroyers, transports, and granadiers with cavalry.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    Getting dogpiled for no apparent reason, except maybe trading with someone a thousand years ago(?) They backed off after a while:
    Spoiler :

    Including the Aztecs, whom did not even have astronomy. They declared war anyway.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG



    The Mayans were not finished though. They decided to attack again
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


    The Zulus were also about to attack but before that, I managed to get some trades and civic changes in.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    The Zulus sent granadiers which were fine. The Mayans send in battleships, tanks, and infantry. Charge against the tanks Poland-style... it wasn't actually that bad. I also made use of machine guns for attrition damage.

    Eventually I paid off the Mayans for 800 gold and gave electricity to the Zulus. I get 10 turns of reprieve before they come back.

    Meanwhile, I founded Mining Inc. I could produce spaceship parts quickly once I had the tech.

    The next big break came at 1818-AD when I finished plastics. This was the first tech trade I made in years. I practically gave it away to the Dutch for +4 modifier and then signed a defensive pact JUST AS the peace treaty with the Mayans expires
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG


    The game was not won though. The Dutch were close to cultural and the Mayans, despite their poor lands, were extremely fast to the spaceship. They had The Internet which meant anything myself and the Dutch had, they also had. It was obvious I could not beat them to space.

    I could mass battleships and transports, and start the Final War... but the Mayans built the UN, but I had 40%+ of world population...

    First round of proposals, I tried to switch to universal suffrage and failed because the Aztecs defied.

    One turn to the second resolution, I noticed I had enough votes
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    With Mining Inc in every city, I think I could have went the domination path but it was more work.

     
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  19. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Spoiler [sylvanllewelyn :

    What a Beautiful hot mess you got dragged into! A big difference between our games just on that one decision to go for Isabelle over Washington!
    Good Job on finishing :)


    Spoiler 170-230 Finishing :

    I went back for Isabell.. just took over a bunch of her cities she caped fast. I tried to balance between keeping and gifting back so I could get DOM as early as possible.

    Failed because I ended up with 62-63% % ich after revolts and filling out my land etc.

    I did prepare for it.. because i knew it was close. So my Shaka invasion was ready. I grabbed 4 cities from shaka to claim victory. He attacked my monty cities with his stack and infantry vs rifle, treb.. killed probably 60 units from him.

    With the cities from Shaka.. The dom limit was crossed with 64,03 %! Why get more.. when you can get enough :). Got DOM 1600 AD. turn 230!

    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Could probably finished the game 10-15 turns earlier with better planning.
    Over all great fun!



    How is DOM land calculated? Does the vassalage civs count as your own land? I seem to remember that its a little less valued.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  20. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @Imploding

    I think you get credit for 50% of vassals' population and land.
     
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