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Nobles' Club 246: Isabella of Spain

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Jul 20, 2020.

  1. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    @Pangaea I am also playing and was hoping to get feedback/compare notes, just not had time to post my report. Thanks for posting!
     
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  2. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Have played a decent chunk of this map now, so took the chance to read some spoiler tags. Very interesting write-up @Fish Man :goodjob:

    Did you save some forests for building wooden space parts? It can be useful in some cases, though it naturally depends on availability, and if you can spare them that long. Not always possible.

    Can't recall what exact tech path I used at the end (it's been too long since I played now), but looking at your instructive image, it looks very familiar at least. I've found that one crucial aspect is getting to Fusion basically ASAP, because those engine are mighty expensive, and don't have resource boosts. Think I usually build them in IW + capital though. If I remember correct, the parts from Genetics and Ecology are usually the really painful ones, where it helps to have some forests to chop into them. That way you can maybe do the last one in one turn. It's possible this was only viable in Corporations games, though, where you have hammers popping out of your eyeballs :D

    I've tried basically what you have done as well, with State Property. It's incredibly powerful, and I'm glad you are writing about it. Corporations are very powerful too, but they really shine on the slower time speeds (takes a while to spread to all your cities, and then becomes HORRIFICALLY expensive in maintenance costs). Communism is an easier ride in that sense, because as you point out costs go down drastically, meaning you don't have to rely on building quite so much Wealth. SP also boosts hammers and workshops, so it's a great package really. Especially on faster/normal speed I'd say. One can get great results with both approaches, but SP is certainly less micro intensive. I've had to abandon many Sushi-type space games because I couldn't bare the brain-melting micro and boredom at the end. Shame about lost HoF #1s, but oh well.

    I logged into the HoF site and tried to look up some games. Not directly comparable because those probably had a couple of gems or golds in the capital, but I see some sub-T250 finishes, also on Immortal. So it's certainly doable there too, at least with a good map. Looks like my best on Immortal is a 1660AD finish, which kinda pales with the 1515AD of the #1, but yeah.... :lol:

    Several years ago now, but there was a gauntlet way back on Rainforest Prince. People used different approaches in that one, and I tried it 2-3 times, with both corps and SP. Looks like my best was 1560AD (not enough to win), but I think that was with corporations. Rainforest is kind of a niche map, though. So much work to clear the land, but underneath all that jungle is nice grassland, which means food neutral workshops EVERYWHERE. Many rivers too for some nice watermills.

    Unfortunately I'm a slow player, so these space games take an absolute eternity, but I agree they are fun to play out. You get to see the entire tech tree, and have to balance so many factors to be able to get a truly great finish date.

    Thanks again for the write-up, and Amsterdam is a killer city on this map :) Great choice for a National Epic city.
     
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  3. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Deity NH

    Spoiler My game :

    Settled PH. Grabbed land and mids, got 6 cities.. lost 2 barb cities to hammy.
    Made them fight. won both music and TAJ (engineered it with my mids engineer) and teched to curi.
    Grabbed everything and won DOM @ 1170 AD.
    Got one of my best scores 450 000 something.
    Happy about that!

    Fun map! :)

     
  4. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Cool summary @Fish Man I enjoyed the read! :) I your mindset to playing the game.. just maximize your own kind of fun/challenge.
     
  5. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Yay, I won.
    Spoiler :
    Won Lib in 540AD and took Military Tradition. For once I managed to avoid trading for Machinery, so it was possible to bulb into Liberalism. Started building Conqs 2 turns later, and attacked in 680AD. Chose to go for Zara, so we could start driving into the east. +14 and Friendly. Never trust humans.

    Good start.
    Spoiler :


    Forgot to take many pictures after that, but... we have one island. Come on! :crazyeye:
    Spoiler :


    After that it was war on Willem and Saladin. Oh, and Victoria and Monty were fighting it out too, with a river of blood near their border, fittingly across a river. Finally time for Hammurabi. After that Victoria (held out longer than I thought, but helped by Itza), and finally Monty, who also held out longer. Was also tricky to get good access to his cities, and I simply had to take some time to heal and reinforce. He had some nasty hill cities, and Hill2 longbows behind 60% culture are still rough for Conqs.

    Spoiler :
    The Monty-toria bloodbath was between Hastings and Calix.



    A little over 400,000 points. Not a bad date either.


    Thanks for the map. This was fun.
     
  6. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    My first NC game, great to see that ppl are still playing and discussing, hoping to get early game feedback & compare notes, @Pangaea @Fish Man @Imploding & others

    Emperor, no huts/no event. I only now noticed that on higher difficulties I am supposed to manually add barb techs, just played the provided WB file, hope it didn't make much difference

    Settling decision
    Spoiler :

    I moved the initial warrior NW, which revealed another corn, so I decided to settle 1N (like game recommended) since that way I was getting Stone (especially nice with all the forest to chop) in the capital BFC w/o loosing any food and only loosing 1t. It is not as good as settling on PH, but due to FPH nearby, I could still get 4h early only for the EXP worker bonus. Also remaining coastal just in case I wanted GLH.
    Isabella_NC_T0.png


    Played to ~T92, stopped to get some feedback

    Tech path/overall strategy
    Spoiler :
    I know generally wonders should be built very sparingly and that one can win without building them at all. But here, with Stone in BFC and all these forests, I decided to get couple to secure good economy, built also some for fail gold, iirc

    Tech path: Agri->Masonry->Wheel->Mining-(Stonehenge)->BW->Medi->Priesthood->Writing-(Oracle-CoL), also got Confused

    Traded CoL for Alpha, AH, Hunting. Later got/traded for Pottery, Archery. Sailing

    Build Pyramids 975BC

    Math->IW,Poly->Mono

    T92, teching HBR and getting ready to take over the world :D. Will either get Ivory through trade and go elephants or HA w/o ivory trade

    In the hindsight,
    --- probably built too many wonders, two good city sites in the East got snatched, probably will attack Hammy soon to get better gold/copper settling spot. Initially thought about friending Hammy and getting after Willem (better cities/more dangerous opponent=faster teching), but Hammy's city is really in my way ...

    +++ economy is doing really well, should have not problems with maintenance of conquered cities



    Couple screenshots

    T27
    Spoiler :

    Isabella_NC_T27.png


    T60
    Spoiler :

    In hindsight Seville looks like mistake, would be a good filler city later, but should push more East. The reason I set Seville was capitol had so much food and wanted to sum-start a city suing already-improved corn.
    Isabella_T60.png


    T92
    Spoiler :


    Only 5 cities and Hammy's city interfering with my settling plans East :(

    Screenshot 2020-07-31 23.16.53.png

    Doing OK tech-wise

    Screenshot 2020-07-31 23.17.36.png

    Cities pretty good, 3 well-established, two other getting granaries and growing quickly

    Screenshot 2020-07-31 23.18.16.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  7. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    Spoiler :


    @sylvanllewelyn In the hindsight, I agree on the city placement. Why do not connect gold early? Just to save worker turns?
     
  8. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    @Fine_Distinction

    Comment about your game
    Spoiler Spoiler :

    I settled my 3rd city to grab the gold/copper spot.
    Prioritizing these kind of spots is really important imo. In this particular case the city gives happines/commerce/metal and functions as a boarder so you can backfill other cities later. I would estimate thst that city spot helped me lib MT 10-20 turns earlier. Which is significant!

    Other than that it looks like you are doing well :)

     
  9. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @Fine_Distinction

    Spoiler :

    Be careful about running a heathen religion. No one else is in Confu and it could bring you some unwanted heat before you're ready to break out.
     
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  10. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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  11. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    @Imploding

    Spoiler :
    I agree :) Before this, I was playing a Prince BotM and urgency to expand is very different in a Prince game. I played this one a week ago, and looking at the screenshot now, I am also surprised at my placement of city #3
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  12. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    @dankok8

    Spoiler :

    Be careful about running a heathen religion. No one else is in Confu and it could bring you some unwanted heat before you're ready to break out.


    Answer

    Spoiler :
    Thanks for the feedback. I generally agree, but in this specific case I think it is worth it, Confu not only gives me extra happiness, but OR bonus for buildings, I can get out of it quickly and painlessly if needed (SPI) and most importantly, I am planning to attack them soon anyway :) will play later with corrected city #3 and see if running Confu does indeed get me in trouble
     
  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    @Fine_Distinction
    Spoiler :
    Bad luck about Hammurabi settling in your face like that, ruining the plans for rice. Something like that is why I tend to block off land early with cities, then backfill. Somebody criticised that in one of the updates, but I think it was a good choice anyway. You never know what these AIs will do, and they will often make poor settling decisions too, like in this case.

    Funny thing about the copper-gold city. I too settled that one pretty early, and for the entire game the city only worked the copper and gold, without being able to grow. It stayed at size 2 forever. Many times I looked at the city and wondered to try to grow it off grassland farms. But it would take 7 turns (5 if turning off the copper too), and even after that it would grow very slowly. So I kept it at size 2 building wealth (and later slow-building Conqs).

    Why did you put Cordoba where you did btw? It looks kinda iffy, not really doing all that much for you. Was it already too late to grab the rice/wine further east?
     
  14. Fine_Distinction

    Fine_Distinction Prince

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    @Pangea
    Spoiler :



    answer
    Spoiler :
    Afair, I initially planned to settle SW of the dry Rice, to cover the useless desert tile. But then I discovered Iron, and with that Plan, no city would work Iron tile. So I decided to move future Rice city 1E and settled this helper city. I guess the idea was that I had more food that I could use around the capital, so I thought that this way I could get a useful city faster. But clearly did not appreciate how quickly Emperor AI can expand, I thought Hammy will not be interested in going in that direction.
     
  15. ZPV

    ZPV Short for ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF

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    @Fish Man
    Nice game! I enjoy the Communism approach to space (and think it's usually the fastest route on normal settings). I do have a couple of suggestions though:
    Spoiler :

    Biology
    I was amazed you took this as late as you did. The powerful thing about State Property is the +:food: on workshops and watermills, and Biology is even better because it provides the bonus on the food tiles you actually want to work. Typically I'd research this immediately after Communism (or before, if I can afford to). Immediately after stabilizing, I want all my cities to grow ASAP (say 8-10:food: surplus/turn) because that's what kickstarts the economy. It also dovetails nicely with:

    The Kremlin
    With The Kremlin, a Forge, Organised Religion and State Property, each population point whips for 70-72 :hammers: (depending on how the rounding errors work)
    That increases again to ~83 with a Factory and ~105 with Power.
    So it makes a lot of sense to whip science multipliers and factories almost everywhere (very high hammer cities will just slow-build them, of course). You just need to figure out how to squeeze in a window of Slavery without compromising your GP generation, but it's usually reasonably possible.

    Endgame planning:
    Your tech order was interesting, but I think you could aim for a faster Space Age. I think the constraints are usually, in order of importance:
    > The last two parts (SS Life Support and SS Stasis Chamber).
    > Overall tech rate
    > The three big parts (2x SS Engine and SS Docking Bay)

    112 base:hammers: per turn in the Ironworks city is an important breakpoint - with full overflow it can build SS Stasis Chamber in 2 turns (or indeed 1 turn if you use the GE from Fusion to build a Radio wonder and chain overflow - i.e. build Spy->Broadway (GE rush)->SS Stasis Chamber). So you try to time everything to complete one turn after the last tech.
    It can also 4-turn an Engine and the Docking Bay so you only really need one other power city to knock out the other Engine.
    Aksum could have hit this threshold- if it were size 20 and running a food deficit (i.e. convert everything to workshops and mines) instead of size 18 with a surplus.

    For the last few turns of research, the non-spaceship cities want to be in full starvation max-science mode. Basically the only tiles better than a Representation scientist are plains hill windmills, commerce resources, plains workshops, and river tiles. You can typically get roughly +40% science compared to standard "breakeven food" during that final push which translates to 1-2 turns saved on the last tech.


     
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