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Nobles' Club 250: Willem van Oranje of the Netherlands

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Aug 17, 2020.

  1. chinemol

    chinemol Chieftain

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    in my game (monarch) it went
    Spoiler :
    : 1- wiping mao (seemed hard, but had an amazingly good luck with mi initial attacks on the first cities, so the siege just kept on almost untouched); 2-capitulating ramses and returning him his cities (upgraded some units); 3- capitulating GK and returning him his cities (needed an aprx 20 turn unit spam to add to the current army to do this); 3-going for hannibal. not hard but would only capitulate when he had 3 cities left, so I wiped him; 4 capitulating churchill was easy, he was alienated and far behind on tech; 5 went straight for moscow and catherine caped just like that


    gonna try the shaka game by night. should I keep playing monarch or maybe try one level more? seems like it would be to much probably, willem was easy to settle and manage. I still can't set a gameplan and stick to it...
     
  2. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    To turn 136 (520 AD).

    Spoiler :

    Had to make a detour to Feudalism once I realized Mao will declare on me. Told myself not to switch to Bureau for a few turns until Mao declares because I need to switch back to Slavery with it to whip Longbows but I forgot about it and two turns later he declared so I reloaded here. I was in a Golden Age but 5-turn cooldown is still there. His classical era units suicided on my cities but because his power was too high still had to give him Compass for peace. Dude is still Cautious with me so he could redeclare soon which is bloody annoying. I'm about 12 turns from Mil Trad but will need another couple for Gunpowder then whip Cuirs. Will still have them ready to attack before 1000 AD which is decent. One thing that makes this game frustrating diplomatically is that Buddhism refuses to spread to me. If I had that I doubt Mao would have declared in the first place and GK would be Pleased with me so I could be more at ease. Oh well GK will be busy with Ram for a while. He's so inept to finish him off despite 3 times the power.

    Have a big tech lead right now as you can see below. About to settle one more coastal city plus that one tile island with seafood. Cities are a bit small due to recent whipping.





     
  3. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    To turn 178 (1180 AD). Annoyed then laughing at my sucky luck!

    Spoiler :

    Got Gunpowder then Lib -> Mil Trad in 740 AD which is pretty good considering the war with Mao I had to deal with. After 10 turns in 960 AD I was ready to smack Mao and he fell faster than a house of cards. His army was no match for 2-move goodness and his cities fell superfast. All the while I still have a tech lead and a few turns from Communism which bodes well for my chances. Then a pivotal mistake on my part... I know this because it exploded in my face many times.. When an AI offers capitulation take it! Mao had one mainland city left so I figured I'll take it before accepting capitulation. Big mistake as he peacevassals to Khan who I took great care to cozy up with. Got him to Friendly at one point even despite no shared religion and then this bullfeathers.

    Anyways I went one more turn, kicked Mao off of the continent and now sending troops to meet Khan. Economy is now taking a brutal beating because I had so many trades with Khan there are now gone. I also have Mil Trad on Cathy and Han so still doing ok in tech. If I could have had peace my eco would really take off with SP and growing cities.







    Spoiler Question :

    Should I just reload two turns ago and take Mao's capitulation? I want to tough it out and win regardless but this is painful and kind of destroys all my diplo planning too. Feels so unrewarding to play a good diplo game then have a stupid game mechanic destroy it. Peacevassaling is an aspect of this game I hate most. And maybe the only one I really hate LOL.
     
  4. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    Could you have begged something from Khan to get a 10 turn peace treaty? Pre-emptively, if you're planning to DoW Genghis afterwards? A peace vassal like that counts as a war bribe, so anything that would prevent an AI from being bribed to DoW you will prevent this "peace"vassal nonsense.
     
  5. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @AcaMetis

    Spoiler :
    I asked him for a small gold gift not sure how many turns back (maybe over 10 turns ago) but he refused. I've been at war with Mao for 17 turns and had basically finished him off when it happened. I actually wasn't sure if I would go to war with Khan at all afterwards. I might have just pushed to Space given my tech lead and nice land. None of the other AI's have a lot of land except Khan and he's terrible economically. And Khan hates Churchill who's also weaker than me so he probably wouldn't declare on me even at Pleased.

    Problem now is that this war destroys all the good will I built with Khan. Even if we sign peace I feel that he will redeclare. All our positive modifiers will disappear. The resource trades are gone. Not to mention the war itself will be a huge slog since he's pumping out units before my stacks in position to do quick damage.
     
  6. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Spoiler I forgot to mention... :

    Cathy traded me Horse. Otherwise wouldn't have been able to build Cuirs at all. I had to put quite a bit of care in to make her Pleased as well because she won't trade Horse at Cautious.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  7. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Reloaded two turns and continued to turn 198 (1380 AD). Going for Space!

    Spoiler :

    Took Mao as a vassal and he can help me research. My economy is quite strong. GNP tripled in about 15 or so turns and cities still have a ton of room to grow. I'm currently around 1000 bpt but can reach about 1500 bpt simply by growing more. Beelining Steam Power for Dikes then Assembly Line for Factories. I think I'll go for Space here. Diplo seems fairly safe. Ghengis is only Pleased now but I have a DP with Cathy so he's isn't plotting on me. He also hates Han and Churchill and his economy is rather bad. I'll get Rifling just in case and then I'll be safe from him for a long time if he does decide to attack. Techwise I'm ahead of the AI's and none of them are researching very fast. Han's economy is good but he is hated by a lot of leaders and doesn't have too much production capacity.

     
  8. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    You should’ve finished Genghis off while he was still far from rifles. 10-13 more cities increases your max bpt by quite a bit, and cuirs vs muskets or anything before is, as you know, a slaughter.
     
  9. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    War against him would be painful. His core cities are very deep inside his territory plus I got him up to Friendly. He won't declare on me. If I finished him off then I could just win Domination. But I want to win Space with 15 cities.
     
  10. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    Ohhh, I see. If you limit yourself to 15 as an artificial constraint (I don't say this mockingly; often I do self-imposed challenges like "have to win under X turns") then that would make sense.

    However, if your goal is to win as fast as possible, capping him and finishing off Ramses makes more sense. On immortal the AI should never have enough medieval garbage to challenge 2-3 dozen cuirs, especially the veterans that have survived from the war against Mao. The war might not last more than 10-15 turns if you wisely scout out his main stack and cities beforehand.

    On the other hand, an extra 60-80% cities means 60-80% faster teching and production by the end of the game. If you want beaker-rates in the 3000s-4000s, then that is the only way.
     
  11. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @Fish Man

    Spoiler :

    I agree it's more efficient to have 25-30 cities but I want to win a more authentic space win not a spacenation, HAHA

    So yes it is a self-imposed constraint!
     
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  12. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Turn 341 (1921 AD) Space Win:

    Spoiler :

    First Space Win on Immortal. I think I did well diplomatically in this game to get both Ghengis and Cathy to Friendly which kept me completely safe.

    UN voting in Environmentalism was Annoying but luckily my spaceship was pretty much finished when it was enacted. My main production city was actually starving because the +1 from Workshops was lost! :lol: It was also tough being a bit starved on resources. For some reason, GK and Cathy had a bunch of happiness resis they wouldn't trade all game. I had to run the culture slider a bit near the end.



     
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  13. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Other comments about the game:

    Spoiler :

    The Dike is a sick UB. The Dutch really rule coastal maps where other civs have really poor production. Poor Hannibal didn't even have Coal. He had a slightly better research rate than me but sidetracked to a bunch of useless techs like Flight, Laser etc. He and Khan were 30 turns slower to Space than I was and I wasn't really trying to optimize as well as I could. My constraint was definitely research with only 15 cities. I was #1 in production and Kassite was quite a monster. It's starving in this screenie because of Environmentalism!



    @AcaMetis

    The starting location doesn't have Horse, Uranium, Oil, or Aluminum. Luckily I got Cathy to trade me Horse for Cuirs and then Mao's territory has all the others! :crazyeye:

     
  14. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    Always love it when the UN forcing everyone into Environmentalism causes your people to starve by the millions. Bonus points if either Mao or Stalin are the UN secretary generals calling for that vote :lmao:.

    I'd like to say that lack of lategame strategic resources was intentional (something something Willem something something merchant empire or what have you something intercontinental corporation something something), but honestly the only time I even notice a resource (or a lack thereof :mischief:) that takes more tech than Calender is when I'm rolling a map for Germany and have to make sure there's nearby Oil for Panzers. Everything else...by that point in the game you'll have ways of getting them if they're not in your territory :ar15:.

    Incidentally, you mentioned that diplomatically you were safe because Genghis and Catherine were both Friendly. Are both also friendly towards Mao, your vassal? Otherwise they're not actually friendly towards you, their actual attitude towards you influenced by their attitude towards your vassal. Not that the game cares to mention that detail :shake:.
     
  15. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    Spoiler :

    Good point on vassals. I paid a lot of attention to their relationship to Mao and they were Friendly with him too. Cathy at one point was Pleased with Mao but I had a DP with Khan so it was doubtful she would get any ideas because she was Friendly with Khan as well and he was a monster in power. I'm proud of the game I pulled off diplomatically because I got these two to Friendly without a shared religion or civic. Basically gave in to all demands, had resource trades, joined their wars, gifted a city to Khan, voted for Khan in the UN etc.

    Three of them... Mao, Cathy, and Khan were all Buddhist for much of the game. For some reason the religion never spread to me and I had Open Borders and trade routes with them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  16. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    Bad luck aside I imagine you got other religions spread to you, either naturally or through missionaries? IIRC a religion can't randomly spread to a city that already has a religion in it, and Genghis Khan...not really the type of guy to build a lot of missionaries.
     
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  17. SnipedSoul

    SnipedSoul Warlord

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    My game (Emperor)
    Spoiler :

    Incredibly easy map. I built GLH and Colossus with peaceful REX to 10 cities. Had a big buddhist bloc that let me be friends with everyone. I used a GE for TGL to get some GPP in the capital. Ended up cruising to a cultural victory around turn 340 with zero offensive wars. Hannibal briefly declared war on me, but he landed medieval troops when I had rifles, so I cleaned him up with ease.

    Not the fastest win since I didn't plan to go for culture until late in the game. The other AI were bogged down fighting each other, so it felt like I could win however I wanted. I had 4 religions in my territory, letting me rush buy 4 cathedrals in my best commerce cities before turning on max slider.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
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  18. Samuel_996

    Samuel_996 Chieftain

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    Deity NHNE to 1790 - domination victory

    Spoiler :


    Finally found a bit of time to finish things off - nobody's favourite portion of the game. Will keep it brief as it's tempting to get bogged down in unnecessary details, but nothing really mattered apart from getting my big pile of cities geared up for endgame wars.

    As I left off, I was planning to wipe up Mao with the large amount of units left over from the war against Genghis, then worry about Catherine. Not much to report there - he gets rifle/cannon parity right at the end of the war, but it's too late. I clear him off the mainland and take a second vassal at 1535AD.



    And now we have a problem. Just as the war is finishing, Catherine finishes Eiffel Tower - one of the wonders which really helps culture AIs cut turns off their finish - and suddenly the victory screen looks very ominous:



    I took a little break to think about how to handle this. Tempting though it is to push for space, the simple fact is that I'll need to go to war to stop Catherine's victory, and once I'm at war, it'll make far more sense to just push for the vassal and win domination.

    I scout around the Moscow/St Petersburg area with a spare ship as I start to accumulate units and discover there's a huge clog of units in the vicinity (a vestige from a long and unproductive war with Churchill) and that Catherine has already achieved railroads - one of the techs that makes advanced era warfare a huge slog for the player. Novgorod is inland and St Petersburg is on a hill, so I decide the plan has to be to land next to Moscow and raze it on the second turn of the war.

    With this in mind, I race to Assembly Line, chuck up some Factories in my strong hammer cities, and start pumping Infantry and Cannons. Later in the buildup, I manage to get Artillery too and upgrade a large amount of my cannons before zeroing my slider. I do pick up Industrialism from Mao late in the game, but I don't build a single tank. At any rate, Catherine's landmass is a long way from my core, which means that firstly it takes a long time to get units there, and secondly there are a lot of dangerous transit turns where rogue Destroyers could pick off my transport ships. Speaking of which, this game really recommended the Dutch UU to me - while the extra power wasn't useful, it was great to have one extra unit capacity - meaning I only needed 3/4 as many ships. With a huge empire all producing units and no Railroad, it is wearying micromanagement to get all my units together into a stack. I opt to have numerous rallying cities with smaller stacks of transport ships, some travelling from my east coast westwards and some travelling from my west coast eastwards. Our target city is just about the furthest point on the map to travel to... :crazyeye:

    By the time I declare, Catherine's naval supremacy is unassailable, so I know it has to be one stack getting the job done. Thus here's my stack, and here's the status of her culture victory on the turn of DOW:





    Unfortunately Novgorod is lagging a bit behind, or this would be a real nailbiter!

    We land next to Moscow as planned, press End Turn with terror, and...

    Nothing? Catherine seals her fate, refusing to attack my stack at all. Moscow falls easily on the same turn as St Petersburg hits Legendary status. A cursory examination of the city reveals a whole HEAP of wonders which required multiple screenshots but I won't include them as this post is getting long. Helpfully, one of them is Statue of Zeus, and thank goodness, because by the end of the war I need to run 100% culture slider as my war weariness gives me 10 or more angry faces in each city. I grit my teeth and raze the city - I have nothing to gain from it and the game gets thrown back into jeopardy if she somehow takes it back. This immediately resolves our most pressing problem:





    Now it's our game to win - Hannibal has just started building space parts but he doesn't stand a chance of getting there.

    I built more than 40 East Indiamen to transport my units. This was fortunate, because there was no way I could have won this war (at least not so quickly) by moving my stack one tile at a time towards her cities. From the ruins of Moscow I sailed anticlockwise round her island and took four more cities, which I kept this time as I was worried I would need some of my own culture to push me above domination. The ships having four movement points meant I could take one city roughly every two turns. However, they were sitting ducks for Catherine's oil navy, which meant I needed to strategise a little more.

    Catherine hit my ships periodically with her airships - I made sure not to heal them up - they were never going to win any battles anyway. I always transported my units between her cities on damaged ships, "defending" the stack with the fully healed ones, which I left empty. While they never won any naval battles, they were the ones which defended the stack from Destroyers. Each of her Destroyers could only sink one of my boats per turn, which meant that I almost never lost any land units while ferrying between cities. Mao had oil ships which occasionally helped me out by scuffling with Catherine, and at any rate, I was targetting exclusively coastal cities, so her ability to build an overwhelming naval capacity slowly diminished. Nice!

    Let's cut to the chase, anyway. I raze her capital, capture four coastal cities, than regather my disparate stacks to grab one inland city. This city seemed to hold her entire airforce, which was helpful, because their destruction pushed her to vassal:



    We win domination the next turn:



    VERY satisfying to see her surrendered city of Khabarovsk (built almost immediately on old Moscow) pushing at Legendary St Petersburg's culture thanks to vassal/master culture dynamics :thumbsup:

    Here are my closing screens and score, just for flavour.





    Quite an easy map (or else I wouldn't have won at Deity :lol:), but a very fun writeup for me - hope it's been enjoyable to read.



    Might try the Saladin game next if I get some time, since Shaka's been up for a while! Peace :love:
     

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  19. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    @Samuel_996

    Spoiler :

    Great job smacking Cathy!

    I like to nuke the hell out of a bunch of coastal cities and capture them right away. If you build 2-3 ICBM's per city you can literally kill every single unit they have in their cities!
     

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