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Nobles' Club 267: Montezuma of the Aztecs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by matthias78, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. matthias78

    matthias78 Chieftain

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    Nobles' Club 267: Montezuma of the Aztecs

    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Montezuma of the Aztecs.
    Montezuma starts with Mystic and the Hunting.

    Traits: Montezuma is Aggressive and Spiritual
    The UB: Sacrificial Altar
    The UU: Jaguar

    And the start:
    See picture in attachment.

    Info to start/map: Not isolated

    Note to files: There is one WB file, were you can choose the difficulty level.
    Additional I have included saves of all the difficult levels, each with NHNE.

    If there are any questions let me know. Enjoy playing!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  2. matthias78

    matthias78 Chieftain

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    Forgot to add the files. Here they are.
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Wow! What a first post. :D
     
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  4. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Triple clams + plains cow with monty starting techs. Hmm
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Lots of funky stuff going on... Monty has hunting and should start with a scout, not a warrior. :|
    Also, it doesn't look like there are any worldbuilder saves, and also there is a save named "King".

    I tried to salvage and make a workable save with scout for buffy5 if someone wants to try that out.

    *Edit*
    Scratch that... Units seem to be faulty in that save too, AIs start with only one settler.
    */Edit*
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  6. matthias78

    matthias78 Chieftain

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    Dont know why this happend. Should be now fixed. (NC 267 Montezuma_v1). Sorry for that.
     
  7. Qactus

    Qactus Romani ite domum

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    Note that Archery still has to be added to Barbarians manually (at least that's true for the immortal savefile).
    Also, it may be worth pointing out in the first post that the map size is set to small.

    Maybe talk to Acametis who has been posting these maps regularly for the last months. I'm sure he'll appreciate your helping out but may offer you some advice on what else to consider when setting these up. Just in case there's more to it than starting techs and units.
    Cheers and happy new year!
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yeah, @AcaMetis have been doing a splendid job the last... year at least. :D
    Agree that you @matthias78 should seek consultation, and again thanks for the effort!
     
  9. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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  10. matthias78

    matthias78 Chieftain

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    What should I say. Big Sorry for the mistakes. :wallbash:
    Should be fixed.
     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T66 :

    Moved the scout SW and assesed the situation. Settler more or less have to move to the west, so unlock a possible city spot along the eastern shore. There is also freshwater up north and nothing is lost at all by moving NW. It also grabs a tiny bit more land.
    I have illustrated a "worst case scenario" where I can only settle 4 cities here.
    Plan is to settle those, and build GLH and utilize that as the economic engine.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    I want to tech fishing->mining->bw, so I'll grow abit on something before fishing is in, then build a workboat then continue with a worker.
    If I put hammers into a warrior, those would decay, so I take advantage of SH (barracks would be better?).
    This turn I move citizen to dye to get fishing done a turn earlier. Then starting workboat on a 2F1H tile to reach pop2.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Nice fogbust location for the scout, north is almost safe.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    Continuing the workboat at pop2.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    Alternating working a 2F1H tile and a 2F2C tile, to sync BW and the worker so that the worker finishes one turn before BW.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    T35 a jungle grows on my dye... :(
    T38 I finish sailing and right away gift away clams to the big guys.

    Making sure to put 13*3=39 hammers into a settler, will 3pop whip it and get alot of overflow hammers for GLH.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    GLH done at T66. I still only have one worker, but I really feel a rush to claim the city spots. Writing before TW/Pottery as traderoutes are very important.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG


     
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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T80 :


    Gilga Settled in my face, that reduces the possible coastal cities to 4. Can settle one inland jungle city though...
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Shaka goes red fist and I enter panic mode with archery... >_< I'm not even a land target!
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Whooo! He declares on Gilga!
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
     
  13. Kernigh

    Kernigh Chieftain

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    Hi. I failed badly as Montezuma in an earlier game, but I want to try this one. In my earlier game, I built Jaguars and attacked Elizabeth of England. One turn after I declared war, Isabella of Spain declared war against me. The war never ended. Isabella built the Apostolic Palace, and most civs joined the war against me. By the end, my slaves were building Sacrificial Altars and Longbowmen, but I lost all my cities! Difficulty was Prince.

    For this game, I will again play Prince. My record at Prince is 1 win, 5 losses.

    This is a weird start. My typical start is to research Agriculture and build a Worker. To start this game, I will research Fishing and build 3 Work Boats (for clams). I might build a Scout until I have Fishing. Then I might research Mining and Bronze Working and adopt Slavery to finish the boats. I won't cut down the forests for boats, because I won't have a Worker.

    I might move the Settler 1 north (on the hill), but I guess not. North of the hill looks like water, so a city on the hill would be a canal. Moving the Settler would delay the clams by 2 turns. I would lose 1 turn to move the Settler, plus 1 turn to move the boats onto the last 2 clams. I guess that I won't move the Settler.

    Will one of you try to found a religion like Buddhism? I don't want to, because I am bad at converting other civs to my religion.
     
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  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    This one went poorly for me.

    Spoiler :

    I got 1480 GLH, but that's about the only thing that went well. Shaka founded Hinduism in his 2nd city just west of me. It culture pressed me and claimed the cows over there for awhile. I did eventually get that tile (after he improved it), but i was really pressed on both sides and only got 4 cities.

    Hinduism never spread to me because Shaka doesn't give a rip about building missionaries. I was building a settler to gift him, but Gilgamesh started plotting first and had a stack of chariots right above me. I had to quickly reroute that settler north and plop it a couple tiles above the dyes up there in the only open spot i could find. I put a turn into Archery and begged the rest of the off him.. fist did not go away so i figure there's a decent chance I'm getting attacked anyway in 10ish turns.

    I built a second settler to gift to shaka but he went red fist while it was en route. 1T later and 1T before i could settle it he declared on me with a pretty fat stack of about 10 units. I have a few units out and more coming, but i know how this one is going to end so I'm going to bow out now and save the time.

    If Gilgamesh gets the early religion instead of Shaka I'm probably fine. Also entirely possible i was meant to delay 3rd and/or 4th cities a little longer and gift those sooner. That may have also been enough to keep me from getting attacked before i was ready.
     
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  15. matthias78

    matthias78 Chieftain

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    @ krikav: Very great that Shaka+Giggles fight against each other. This will keep both of them busy.
    @ Izuul: Sorry for that bad happening. The only thing I can bring in is to gift Shaka a city as early as possible.
    But I know its not that easy.
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T133 :


    T82 I get hindu-spread and convert immediatly.

    Awww no! Don't make peace so fast guys. :'(
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    T91 I finish Alfabet (I figured they will be preoccupied with wartechs since they are at war.)
    Forgot that Shaka doesn't trade techs at cautious though, but still getting Math for alfa with Gilga seems ok, now I can keep eyes on what techs they get too. Tempted to replay and try a alfa-beeline on this map! TW/Pottery could be postponed and possibly traded for.

    Now I'm going for construction->IW to get an army. I need to break out here. Only other option would be to settle the jungle city and try to bulb astro and met the others and possibly break out later, but I think that is more risky with so little land and so unfriendly neighbours.

    T92 I spawn a GMerchant which I settle right away, I got so much gold saved up to run a trade mission. (Too much probably but was waiting for capital library for ages). Bulbing currency feels likewise meh.

    T98 I finish construction, but Gilga has already finished it so I set to self-tech ironworking. :'(
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    Now I gift a city to Shaka, who was annoyed with me (and had me as worst-enemy) for a pair of turns. I was hoping in vain that this could bump me up to pleased.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    Traded dye for clam with shaka to get abit more happines for more whips.
    Very nice windfall! I was going metal-casting to trade this from him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    Didn't see this when I did the trade, but I should have swapped him to HR here instead of grabbing agriculture which was probably dumb anyway. To get the diplo bonus from favourite civic sooner.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    Shaka has longbows now, so I need to postpone my attack even further to get an overwhelming force. Luckily all of his important cities are on flatland. Keeping my eyes on him so he doesn't go machinery, as xbows would be a gamestopper.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    I have built a fort NE of Nobamba to weather his counterattack, I need all catapults on the offensive to crack that nut, and bombardment is necessery.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    Having happiness issues now with all units out of the cities, but Gilga is not feeling genereous, I wonder if him giving me monarchy eariler on has already filled his quota...?
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

    Axes where promoted shock, spears combat2 and 9 jaguars (the same number as his catapults) where promoted against siege.
    Most units had 25% fortify and are enjoying the fort. I lose 7 units and he loses 24.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    I take the city, have to run in and defend with drill-promoted catapults now though, but if not he would just whip more longbows.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG


     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T135... :

    He went for my scout, injuring one of his catapults too, instead of wrecking my defending catapults. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    This is very... very bad news though. :(
    With abit of luck, he won't build too many xbows... but I need to get even more catapults now to defend against those, and cities are allready close to whipping capacity.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Woody3+medic3 great general is dandy. :D All to 100% in one turn.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    This garrison survived too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    Just some minor things, a HA is heavily injured outside Nobamba anda jaguar kills it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    The island really has some problems now... No trade-routes either really hurts. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
    Now I'll see if I can't make a push!
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
     
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  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T142 :


    Brennus finds me, and he is quite advanced. He does not like me either... I give him 20g to get to cautious and can open borders with him next turn.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG
    I get this city quite easy.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    Once I'm marching toward Ulundi, I get some causalties.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    Even more while bombarding...
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    I do get it though!
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
    But to make peace, he wants it back.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
    And he won't accept alfabet either... >_<
    So here I resign. I couldn't make an effective enough push to get enough land.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

    I do think this approach is doable though. Get GLH, expand to 4 cities and then tech toward a construction attack to break out.
    Might give it another shot, but this time around, I have had enough of a beating. :D

     
  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :
    For me, remaining small, putting :hammers: to a wonder and then aiming to break out at construction is very counter-intuitive. I'm not saying it can't work, I haven't even played the map. :) Just saying that there must be some other way... Map seems extremely tough though.
     
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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @sampsa
    Spoiler :

    If the neighbours where guaranteed to play peacefully, it could be. Say, if one manages to gift 2 cities somewhat early to Shaka, and also get HR bonus with Gilga.
    And if one gets religious spread earlier than ~T80-T90.. :|
    In that case, than it could be possible to tech up with some more cottages and GLH and make a breakout later.
    But 5 cities where most are tiny is kind of pushing it for a breakout later on I think.
    With horses trade missions and upgrades can magically conjure up the needed hammers, but here I'm not sure.
    Drafted rifles perhaps?

    I don't think the map lends itself to a more agressive land-grabbing earlier either though, barring some cheesy approach when one runs 5 turns in the beginning to get a sweeter spot.
    Partly becaue the land is plain garbage, there is desert in the west and jungle in the north.
    But partly also because the start is slow.

    Do you have any ideas how to handle this map?
     
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