Nobles' Club 275: Churchill of England

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Churchill of England, whom we last played in NC 230; we last played the English under Elisabeth in NC 253. The English start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Churchill is Charismatic and Protective. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1, and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Protective gives all Archery and Gunpowder units a free City Garrison I (+20% City Defence) and Drill I (+1 First Strike chance) promotion, as well as a +100% bonus to Walls and Castles.
  
• The UB: The Stock Exchange, a Bank with an extra +15% generated over a standard bank. Banks are rarely build buildings as they are somewhat expensive (200 on standard speed) and maintaining 100% slider isn't hard to do when you can build Wealth, sell resources and excess techs, or just punch money out of weaker civilizations. That said, if you're planning on going conquering a few Stock Exchanges in economic backbone cities will keep your economy safely afloat. Unless you send an army that would make Genghis Khan faint to take over an amount of land that would make the Romans call you completely crazy, of course .
  
• The UU: The Redcoat, a Rifleman with +25% vs. Gunpowder units in addition to Mounted. These guys have an edge against the most common unit types they're likely to fight against, including their intended counter unit, making them an all-around excellent unit to use in their era. Rifling is a lengthy detour from getting "any" decent attacking unit on the way to Cannons, but Redcoats do have an advantage in that they can be drafted, and Banking is on the way to Rifling.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Inland Sea, Medium Sealevel, +1 AI to balance out the field.

Spoiler edits :

The usual resource swaps, as well as an unseen Sheep in the player's starting BFC being changed to a visible Pig.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 275 Churchill Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Good land all around and no less than three riverside PH to settle on T1. Since the land seems to be amazing in multiple directions I guess move the warrior S or SE, see if the southern PH holds something even more delicious (and obviously settle there if so), and if not settle...well, probably on the NW PH, since that seems to capture more river tiles over the NE PH and a capital doesn't need to worry about popping borders. Although could also settle NE PH and leave the top western PH open for a second city, maybe ? Not sure what the best move is here...

What do the experts think ?

 

[Nick723]

Very interesting start!

Instinct might be to scout south with the warrior. Can’t improve pigs quickly so might be better for city 2 if there are some grains south?

If going for the AH route, what’s the plan? SIP or go for a plains hill? Worker will be able to build a mine or perhaps farm a flood plains before improving pig.

 

[AcaMetis]

Instinct might be to scout south with the warrior. Can’t improve pigs quickly so might be better for city 2 if there are some grains south?

Probably, it's good land for a capital regardless so if there's easier food I'd say it's a good choice to settle there. Does ixnay the two PH to the west, but I can't imagine that's worth settling the grass hill for instead. 2 city tile and more scouting information? Yes please.

If going for the AH route, what’s the plan? SIP or go for a plains hill? Worker will be able to build a mine or perhaps farm a flood plains before improving pig.

Definitely settle one of the two northern PH, and I guess mine a hill or two. There seems to be enough floodplains (combined with, eventually, improved Pig) that I don't think farming a floodplain is necessary. I guess maybe a temporary FP farm for a second/third city that needs to settle with food in it's second ring or something, I guess, but that obviously depends on more than we'll be able to see T0.

 

[Nick723]

Definitely settle one of the two northern PH, and I guess mine a hill or two. There seems to be enough floodplains (combined with, eventually, improved Pig) that I don't think farming a floodplain is necessary. I guess maybe a temporary FP farm for a second/third city that needs to settle with food in it's second ring or something, I guess, but that obviously depends on more than we'll be able to see T0.

Interesting you say this. Normally I’d agree, but I think the advantage of a PH settle is normally the earlier worker (gain here 2 worker turns). But here if you’re building a mine that you’re not going to work until you build your second settler, I’m not sure it’s as clear cut. I wouldn’t want to give up a perfectly good capital location for something worse just for a PH here. Granted, north looks like it’ll be fine, but no way to be sure! Or do you see it differently?

Another question - regarding tech path for starts like this. Assuming no agri resource in BFC, will people go agri->AH or hunting->AH?

 

[AcaMetis]

Interesting you say this. Normally I’d agree, but I think the advantage of a PH settle is normally the earlier worker (gain here 2 worker turns). But here if you’re building a mine that you’re not going to work until you build your second settler, I’m not sure it’s as clear cut. I wouldn’t want to give up a perfectly good capital location for something worse just for a PH here. Granted, north looks like it’ll be fine, but no way to be sure! Or do you see it differently?

Another question - regarding tech path for starts like this. Assuming no agri resource in BFC, will people go agri->AH or hunting->AH?

The way I see it is that the extra production will add to more than just your first worker, and SIP would ruin a forest anyway so that's not an ideal spot. Barbarians in particular are something to take seriously on this mapscript, so settling cities on hills and building mines for emergency unit production (whipping works of course, but it can only do so much) is a perfectly valid move.

Definitely Hunting -> AH, it's cheaper and gets you your food tech faster. Also, mapscript, Barbarians...opening up the path for a quick(-ish) Archery - especially with a CHA/PRO leader - could very well prove to be lifesaving. Well, assuming there's no Horses or Copper nearby, which of course could very well be riverside capital BFC for all we know, but either resource being available and nearby is only a chance. Archery will work, 100%, so it's not a bad card to keep close to one's hand.

 

[SittinDown]

Interesting. The Pig is in an odd spot - and the pig can't be mined either. I'd probably go Warrior SE to start and make a call from there. It's the Northern half of the map, and with inland sea, probably going towards the sea is better for the capital.

 

[sampsa]

For some strange reason, I have never been able to play a decent game with Churchill. I like CHA and maybe PRO isn't useless on this mapscript as there tends to be a lot of room. That being said he's clearly at the bottom quarter of all leaders for me. I guess redcoats can make some impact if the game turns out to be a grind.

Deity T50

Spoiler :

After the most logical warrior move, for me the start plays itself. Agri-BW, just the way you want it with a mining-starter. 2nd city claims copper which provides barb immunity pretty much and woody2-warrior helped a lot with scouting. Not sure if I settle pigs or fish first. Chops before cottages!

Long-term plan is either boring cuirs (most logical with this land I'd say, though I don't know if we have horse yet) or maybe something more frisky like a 5-city construction vs Hatty. Stalin can have his jungle for now.

 

[krikav]

Haven't had much time for civ for a while now, but played up to T50 here to.
Churchill is obviously worse than the other two english ladies, but the addition of protective does sit nicely with the redcoats.

Spoiler T50 :

Warrior went up on the hill, and with wet corn in sight, the settler follows right away. Agri->BW most likely.

Only got one warrior out before starting settler, so landing a chop to finish another warrior here. I opt to go for this spot as it pushes toward Hatty and secure alot of floodplains, but it will be a pain to grow this city with only floodplains as food.

I had two warrior up north and I thought I had almost everything fogbusted, but one warrior slipped through and I had to 1pop an axe in York.

Nottingham isn't very good, worked a unimproved plains (not a single forested tile in the 3x3.) and chopped a forest outside of culture to get a boat.
I want a city 3S of nottingham and that city will benefit from starting with a fish if I do it like this.

Hatty has a settler party up north, no clue how close Stalin is. Just met Toku.
Map looks like inland Sea, but there isn't so much land available so two axes should be enough defense for now.
Went Agri->BW->TW->Pot->AH.
Kind of contemplating sailing now... Hatty will likely get writing soon, and nasty deserts will make roading toward her a major pain.

Will settle corn+copper next I think, but will check horses.
Want to settle pigs soon too, but might have to rush down into the jungle to push away Stalin first.
Nice lush land and I'm likely to get marble too. If nothing extreme happends I will probably go the lib route.
Hatty would probably be easy to roll over with cuirs, but I will probably want to go for redcoats instead when I have the chance.

 

[krikav]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Corn/copper looks much better than my snail-pace fish.
Construction against Hatty might probably work out nice, she never builds any units.
She can be really nice to have around though. Lightning-rod-Hatty.

 

[sampsa]

Realized I forgot to add archery. Well, barbs seem to have it now and a barb city in the north has archers, but some earlier ones might be full of warriors, so easy pickings for AIs. My mistake and I suffer the consequences...

@krikav

Spoiler :

My logic on the fish-city was that it's much better only after capital pops 3rd ring. Our tech path was identical btw.

 

[shakabrade]

Deity 1AD overview

Spoiler :

Settled in the South PH with the wet Corn after Warrior revealed it. I see others did the same thing. Tech Path was Agri, BW, Wheel, Pottery, AH, Writing, Aesthetics, etc. I decided to go to size 6 before whipping the first settler to have more warriors for fogbust and I had no issues with the barbs. Only one Archer entered borders and was met by an Axe. Other barbs were taken care of by the AI. I fogbusted the city spots I wanted, danced around barbs, and no Barb cities spawned.

First improvements were Corn Farm and FP Farm which was shared later on with the Eastern Dry Corn + Copper site. I think that was really good site allowing me to push the settlers and workers at an incredible rate. I whipped a lot thanks to Charismatic and all cities had food to start and the Granaries were chopped at size 1-2 in almost all of the cities. Very close nigbours and an OB provided some appreciated revenue during the REX, but after that, cottages were adding more with each turn. Hatty has spread Judaism to me (which I adopted as Stalin and Toku had no religion), Stalin caught it later, and I have gifted a city to Stalin to become pleased. So, just a minor threat. Nonetheless, I have some 7-8 Axes in the empire if he declared for some stupid reason.

GPP was not set up properly but I managed to get the GLib and Music GA, while failed The Parthenon (would have prefered it with the bad GPP setup) and SoZ (which serves only for Failgold). The screenshot below is just right before the switch to Bureau, HR, Caste and OR. Unfortunately, I do not have Pacifism. I should just research Philo in 3 turns and then make a switch. Regarding the diplo situation, Hatty was mostly at war with the Celts and the global tech rate is slow as many hate each other. I have Ivory and can premake War elephants and upgrade a dozen into Cuirs around 500AD and go into whipping mode with food and happiness to end the game. To get the horses from Luis (does that at pleased), I need to go out of religion, get into HR and gift him some bigger tech. Doable. This one is pretty much won, I guess.

Spoiler :

 

[Set]

Gave this one a go. Immortal difficulty, playing with huts and events. Played completely blind.

Spoiler :

Ended up pretty similar to the above games early on: Agri -> BW -> Wheel -> Pottery -> AH -> Writing.
T59:

Spoiler :

You can see that I put the copper/corn city one N. I think my theory was I could share an additional cottage with the capital that way but definitely worse in retrospect. I also made the city by the north copper and floodplains my second city. I wasn't sure about that because no food resource but I wanted to make sure to claim land with it. Seems it wasn't necessary looking at other people's games though.

Decided to go construction attack on Hatty since she's so close and doesn't build any units. Also saw her build a big Shrine. I actually had to self-tech masonry because none of the AIs had Alpha until way late, except for Toku, which is obviously not very useful. Neglected to take any screenshots of the war but it went well, here's my empire in 150AD, only 6 turns after @shakabrade screenshot above so good for comparison (well, except I'm playing on an easier level).

Old Empire:

Spoiler :

New Egyptian Possessions (Memphis with 20GPT shrine):

Spoiler :

Compared to shakabrade I'm missing Metal Casting, Monotheism and the entire Aesthetics -> Music line. Not sure why I skipped the music race. I think I figured that the detour to Construction delayed me too much. I also maybe forgot I had marble for Great Library. Obviously no forges either and my cities are a little smaller as they recover from war whipping. I do have 5 additonal cities though. Two of them, Memphis and Thebes, are very strong. My BPT is a little lower but should go up as the Egpytian cities grow/come out of revolt. Also have a large army for HR garrisoning but ended up not helping too much as health was a constant problem this game. Very hard to grow cities big.

Went straght on to Lib + Cuirs after this with a small detour for Philo and Pacifism. Ended up trading for most of the music line though I self-teched music itself. GPs were a little awkard. Don't think I should have built the academy in London with my first GS but instead saved him for GA. Ended up using one scientist for GA and then generated two more GP. One GS bulbed lib. Randomly got a GM out of Thebes (do foreign GP points carry over after conquest? No wonders in the city and I didn't run any merchants, although I should have) who did 1500 gold trade mission in Paris which was used to upgrade waiting Horse Archers into Cuirs. Target was Stalin since he was big and starting to catch up in tech and I wanted to kill him before he was a problem.

Attack hit at 1000 AD. Pretty late I think? But more Cuirs then usual with such a big empire.

Spoiler :

Bypassed Yaktusk which had a lot of troops and was on a hill to run wild in the Russian interior. Managed to get a cap 9 turns into the war which was a relief because it felt like my attack was starting to sputter a little. Played as spain before this and I was really missing Conqs this game.

Spoiler :

Tokugawa was being beat up by Pericles so I moved right on to him and got a quck cap after two cities. Would have stopped there to wait for redcoats but Louis started beating up on Pericles so I moved in and capped Greece. Decided to avoid Louis who was at tech parity with me and finished off the game with drafted redcoats + cavs running over the Celts and the Aztecs. Finishing date is is 1560AD

Spoiler :

I got Communism and changed into State Property at the end of the game. Here's my GNP afterwards:

Spoiler :

And the power graph for the whole game:

Spoiler :

Overall this game felt prettty sloppy to me but you can't argue with results. It's also always nice to feel like you can win when playing a little sloppy since I find fussing about the little stuff a little bit stressful (Lately I've mostly stopped doing binary research for instance). This is also the first time ever I have played a civ map which was not round!

 

[krikav]

Really nice game there @Set !
I have started to appreciate CHA more and more, getting those lvl2 and lvl3 promotions abit quicker helps alot with siege/mounted.

 

[Set]

I agree, very strong trait. I've never felt totally comfortable going early Monarchy (so many useless techs on the way!) so I appreciate the happiness bonus a lot on maps with no early happy resources. On more normal maps it gives you extra power and you can sell some happiness resources.

In this game I also really benefitted from the xp boost. A core of Cuirs got to triple combat + march with the help of a GG pretty early in the war with Russia and basically didn't stop moving and attacking until I had finished Russia, Japan and Greece. Really helped make the most of the Cuir window.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

So, I did some digging and found this very nice map. I'm surprised it hasn't been more played.
It is a lot richer than most of the Inland Sea maps that we've seen in the Noble's Club recently.
Turn 71 :

Spoiler :

I also did some reading and was intrigued by Shakabrade's 1AD 324 /turn without even Bureaucracy
So I tried my hand at it, taking his advice to farm a shared floodplains as the second improvement.

I have almost assembled the old "Turn 70, 7 cities, never reach the Classical Era" caveman combo.
With a little determination, it is possible I could carry the trend to "Turn 90, 9 cities, etc."

Spoiler :

City spots, what a nice sight ! That's a change. I only have 5 workers, up there, but there are a lot of shared tiles, which make it manageable. I also only have made 2 roads, which helps a lot. This river network is incredible.

This is how I opened (to t50) :

Spoiler :

Agri, BW, The Wheel, Pottery
Grow to size 4, double chop into : settler, whip a settler. Second city down the river with jungled gems in the 2nd ring - I will have to contest that tile with fellow caveman Stalin.
The worker can just road to the third city before it is settled.


Grow York asap to set up a worker whip :



Nottingham completes its worker naturally at size 2. The worker from York helps chop/whip another one before heading north.
London whips another settler at size 4. The two workers are now chopping the granary in London. Workers 3 & 4 are almost done.



The strategic corners of the land grab have been established.
The next 3 settlers will anchor the borders (two 6->3 whips in London and one 4->2 whip in Nottingham.

I did not research Animal Husbandry, because I can trade for pigs with Hatshepsut.
Tech path Pottery, Writing, Infinity.

 

[konata_LS]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

T71 and 7 cities, astonishing for a leader who is neither IMP nor EXP

Pig's 6 is nice but a little painful for a civ who has no Agri no Hunt. Maybe that's why not many people want to try this map. If the leader was de Gaulle or Cyrus (CHA leaders who start with Agri), I would definitely settle 2N of the settler. But for Churchill, moving towards that wet corn is the best choice. But yes, as you said, the land is quite rich: flood plains, only a few jungle tiles, many riverside tiles.

After Aesthetics, maybe Maths-Calendar? as you have at least 4 Calendar resources -->4 extra happy faces. Or Maths-Construction for capturing some rich land from one of your neighbours? A lot of choices

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

T71 and 7 cities, astonishing for a leader who is neither IMP nor EXP

Pig's 6 is nice but a little painful for a civ who has no Agri no Hunt. Maybe that's why not many people want to try this map. If the leader was de Gaulle or Cyrus (CHA leaders who start with Agri), I would definitely settle 2N of the settler. But for Churchill, moving towards that wet corn is the best choice. But yes, as you said, the land is quite rich: flood plains, only a few jungle tiles, many riverside tiles.

After Aesthetics, maybe Maths-Calendar? as you have at least 4 Calendar resources -->4 extra happy faces. Or Maths-Construction for capturing some rich land from one of your neighbours? A lot of choices

Spoiler :

Yes, you're quite right in your assessments.
First, this sort of opportunity for REXing doesn't happen everyday.
Pigs... To be honest, I just couldn't research AH. I've been flirting with an economic crash (which is natural with a REX - but then, earlier cities should pay off faster, provided they're attended to) and getting to Writing/Alphabet is way more important than unlocking the single tile (which happens to be in a backfill position). (I did end up researching Mysticism, however, to get a few more happies.)
Calendar is indeed the most important economic tech, here, but Litterature is also an appealing follow-up. On Deity, in this position, Maths is 100% trading material. So, there's some tension in the tech order and it is trade dependent. I did get a deal for marble, so wonders are at stake, hence the tension. Litterature vs Calendar is a difficult choice, especially if Aesthetics gets traded all the way around.
On Emperor, it might make sense to go Alphabet --> trade for Maths --> Calendar and delay Aesthetics until later (or skip it entirely).

 

[konata_LS]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Yeah, one of the challenge on Deity is the high maintenance + expensive techs vs the limited . On Noble, people usually don't care too much about early techs, as techs are cheap anyway. But on Deity, people need to choose carefully what to tech or what to get from trade.
Agree about Lit vs Calendar. Some failgold from Aesthetics wonders would also help your economy after REXing. It seems you delay Construction for a while, so I guess you would peacefully develop your empire for the next 50 turns.
This map might be among the few cases where Calendar is more important than Monarchy. Unlike MP warriors, you don't need to pay units cost for the - from Calendar resources. You may also sell your extra dyes or spices to AIs for , if they get Currency.
On Emperor, self-teching Alphabet is surely more frequent than on Deity. If I decide to construction rush a neighbour, I would certainly delay Aesthetics until I want Literature to unlock HE. CHA leaders only need 8 xp for HE btw - very nice trait.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Yeah, one of the challenge on Deity is the high maintenance + expensive techs vs the limited . On Noble, people usually don't care too much about early techs, as techs are cheap anyway. But on Deity, people need to choose carefully what to tech or what to get from trade.
Agree about Lit vs Calendar. Some failgold from Aesthetics wonders would also help your economy after REXing. It seems you delay Construction for a while, so I guess you would peacefully develop your empire for the next 50 turns.
This map might be among the few cases where Calendar is more important than Monarchy. Unlike MP warriors, you don't need to pay units cost for the - from Calendar resources. You may also sell your extra dyes or spices to AIs for , if they get Currency.
On Emperor, self-teching Alphabet is surely more frequent than on Deity. If I decide to construction rush a neighbour, I would certainly delay Aesthetics until I want Literature to unlock HE. CHA leaders only need 8 xp for HE btw - very nice trait.

Sorry for the late response. You make very good points all around.

Spoiler :

Your strategic understanding seems to be very good. This is not my forte, I'm way better at optimizing terrible decisions

Maintenance is a killer. This is especially true on Deity where it can warp a tech path / build order but still a factor to be acknowledged on Immortal or Emperor. Note that some excellent players have past their time optimizing play on Settler difficulty. I don't consider that to be any easier.

Failgold... I've put a max whip overflow into the Parthenon but it was more of an afterthought. If your eco situation is sound, I do not believe (at all) that whipping useless items for failgold is a good recipe. I do believe (very much) that working the tiles does quite a comparable (if not better and more flexible) job at getting you there.
It is the same about building wealth/research. There are fringe cases where those are good decisions but : fringe cases. If you can build a relevant item, it should take precedence. Building wealth/research is mostly about shaving a single turn of research towards a tech. Exceptions made for late-game situations where your whole set up is built around it.
Failgold is better than wealth/research but the underlying principle is the same : you can't do that and build something relevant at the same time. Wealth/research vs military is a particularly cruel dilemma.

Calendar : don't forget tile yields. Happiness and tile yields come as first advantages.

Construction : That stroke me as the main keyword the first couple of times I read (and didn't reply to) your post.
Yes, indeed, I'm not set up to go to war any time soon. Even Macemen : not possible. By the time I could envision a Mace war, I would be too close to the Renaissance. Taking the eco hit would not be worth it vs cheaper conquest with more advanced units.
Construction has that pivotal place in the Classical Era.If you have had the space to expand to a healthy Empire, it comes down to war costs. I love a Swords or Maces war but, the higher the difficulty, the more seldom the occasion arises. There are situations where those wars are a matter of necessity. If we except those, I do believe the player should do their best to retain the capability to tech up at all times (teching & warring). This means warring on the cheap. Swords vs no metal ; Macemen vs no longbows/X-bows. This sort of thing. Catapults, sure, but trading for Construction while teching up.
If the cost of the war is too steep, it will often be better to just tech up. Better units will act as a discount on the hammers invested.

Cheers

ps : I've got a bonus for you. Turn 89 :

Spoiler :

So, Montezuma declared war on Boudica, which cut my trade routes, which cancelled my marble deal.
Optimizing terrible decisions, I tell you This would in no way make or break the game but it sure is a way to ruin somebody's plans.
Montezuma, we were supposed to be friends !!!