Nobles' Club 277: Joao II of Portugal

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Joao II of Portugal, whom we last played in NC 231. The Portuguese start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Joao II is Expansive and Imperialistic. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% bonus to Settler production. Note that neither the worker or settler bonus apply to excess directly converted to .
  
• The UB: The Feitoria, a Customs House that adds +1 to all of a city's water tiles. It's a nicer bonus on paper than in practice, because by the time that you've researched Economics you really shouldn't be looking forward to investing three (base) Granaries worth of so you can upgrade to some number of 23 Coast, or worse, 22 Ocean tiles.
  
• The UU: The Carrack, a Caravel that can transport any two land units instead of one Great Person, Spy, Missionary or Scout/Explorer. Carracks allow you to transport units like Settlers or military over the oceans before researching Astronomy, which allows you to grab unclaimed islands or launch naval invasions before anyone else could even think about doing so. Of course in practice the latter option is a bit impractical, both due to the logistics involved and because oversea colonies without Astronomy trade routes are expensive, but if you happen to come across someone like Gandhi hoarding religious shrines...

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Terra, High Sealevel, temperate climate.

Spoiler edits :

The usual resource swaps and moving otherwise unworkable seafood.

Spoiler map script :

Terra is a combination of Pangaea and Continents. There's one main Pangaea where all the players start on, the Old World, which usually has a number of larger islands/small island chains just off the coast somewhere that can be accessed with Galleys. Across the ocean wait one or two major continents - the New World - with resources not found anywhere in the Old World, which can only be settled with Astronomy...normally. Joao II and his fleet of Settler-moving Carracks have a different plan in mind .

Note if you're not playing a custom scenario with Vassal States turned off settling 3+ cities on any landmass without a Palace (either the basic one, the Forbidden Palace national wonder or the Versailles world wonder) will incur a very hefty Colonial Maintenance penalty. If you wish to settle the New World and not go bankrupt before researching Communism (for State Property) or forming an actual colony under AI control you should pre-emptively build the Forbidden Palace in the Old World, where all your established cities can easily pump out the requisite Courthouses and production to build an expensive National Wonder, and move your actual (relatively very cheap to build) Palace to the New World. Trying to build 6 Courthouses and Forbidden Palace in newly established cities in a new, uncharted and untamed land is one step short of a futile endeavour.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 277 Joao II Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

This seems to be a choice between SIP and 1S. Let's see, SIP has the advantages of a T0 settle, fresh water (not too big a deal with EXP, admittedly, but than if any city is going to run into health issues before industrializing...), more river tiles, wet corn (though wet wheat and triple clam is enough food, frankly), looks like 3 more forests in BFC, and it's a tile deeper inland (for what that's worth). 1S has a 2 city tile...and I think not a lot else to recommend it? It's on a hill, but if that defensive bonus comes into play something has gone horribly wrong already...could settle a second city 1E or 1W of corn, probably 1E along the river (though 1W could share Wheat ). Although SIP gets culture on the corn for free, so that frees up the possibility of settling a second city somewhere like 1N2E of corn, which claims an awful lot of river, or 3N or Warrior, which...would be a city, I guess? Not very enticing, unless there's resources, and it can't share Wheat with the capital like a 1S/1W of corn play can.

What's the experts' opinion on this ? SIP, 1S, or the grand play of somewhere else entirely ?

 

[user330977]

Hi Acametis,
thanks for this, I was wanting to take part in something like this so how great you just posted this up. I'm a Monarch player so not an expert by any means but let's check this out. Plains hills are generally great for the bonus, but stepping away from wet corn physically hurts me. Wheat and clam is enough food, but I wouldn't want to spend all that time producing worker boats when I could be exploring with warriors or getting workers/settlers out, especially with Joao's IMP/EXP bonuses. Looks like grassland and/or floodplains on the river's eastern banks, ripe for some juicy cottaging.

That said, willing to listen to the wisdom of higher level players, as always.

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[krikav]

Very tricky opening...
@AcaMetis has mentioned alot important factors but one more thing regarding SiP vs 1S. If we SiP, all the clams and the wheat will be locked into the capital for the entire game. This is rather bad. Being able to share food with satellite cities are very important.
Settlement 1S at least opens up the possibility to share the wheat.

But then again...Joao is expansive, so a worker would be extra fast. (12turn worker SiP, 10turn worker 1S).
Both the grains are irrigated and are 6 tile yields. So this tilts us toward agriculture and worker first.. And if thats the case we kind of want both grains in the capital.

Then again... Joao is also imperialistic, so a second city could be done quite fast.

 

[AcaMetis]

Completely forgot about the Warrior. Not much he can do, though . I'd say move him 1NE, towards the river, rather than scouting the coast to the west. South is water, and north can wait. SIP especially wants to know the lay of the land where a city can be placed to share the Corn.

 

[krikav]

I think I'll go with SiP. Agri->BW and worker first.
SiP means BW one turn faster, and getting both grains accessable in capital is more important than the extra hammer I think.
The extra hammer is really sweet in these coastal starts though, when workboats compete with warriors for attention, but here BW comes online fast enough that the boats (if any) can be chopped.

 

[user330977]

Hello folks

Looks like I'll get the ball rolling.

Spoiler :

I bit the bullet and decided to SiP and my decision is somewhat vindicated I think - some food rich sites around the capital for additional cities. First tech was agriculture of course, moving into BW, so I can chop out work boats, settlers and workers. First build was worker and he will be put to work upgrading those farms. I'll grow to size 3 then begin a settler. What do folk think of city sites 2w of the eastern corn (city can grow from capital's corn and has some grassland for cottaging) or where my warrior is? AH needed for that though.

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

2W of eastern corn looks good, can share capital food and claims a nice bit of river/grassland. Barbarians might be an issue with the Jungle right there, though. Might want to go Hunting -> Archery if no Copper shows up? No hunting resources nearby but at least the AH discount makes it less of a waste. And, you know, not dying is somewhat important.

Pig city I'd definitely settle coastal. Maybe...hmm, that desert tile 1W2S of Pigs can share Clam and floodplain with the capital. Not a great city in it's own right, but a place you can whip out/slow build some cheap workers/settlers while growing a cottage or two? Cheap Granaries too, so growing won't be an issue. Of course than you can't settle a coastal city that gets pigs in first ring, but these cities are backfill material anyway, so maybe wait until capital gets a second border pop and settle pig city 2E1S of pigs? Possibly a filler city 1N or Lions?

Alternatively you can just settle a city 1S pigs - puts 2 on a desert hill tile and can share a good few tiles with the capital, has food in first ring, captures some forests, all in all a good city both long and short term. No riverside, but with +2 from EXP and two grains in the capital I don't think health will matter until Assembly Line.

 

[krikav]

@Ita Bear

Spoiler :

The plains hill SW of the eastern corn is very nice. I settled that place. Alot over overlap with capital to help mature cottages.
Happy-cap looks like it can be a problem, so helper cities are extra important.
I don't like 2W of the eastern corn, since it doesn't really bring in anything new to your empire.

I had not scouted the northern corn when I settled city3, so I went on the PH south-east of the dye.

 

[Alexander IV]

Hi people!
I just got a reg to make a proposal to discuss: what if one put the capital on a FP? Isn't here too much food for only 1 satellite? I think the second city could be placed right where starting warrior is, and you could start with that settler right away with the PH. No danger from barbs in that corner. And it will be very compact and cheap. Will have room for other cities very close. What do you guys think?
(Yeah, long time read-only here. And as it's my first post I'd like to thank the community for what's done and said here, I appreciate that. Got my (oh, very few...) deity wins thanks to you. Such a nice cosy place this forum is!)
Actually I'm going to try it myself, curious about it. I hope it want make me stagnate - there will only be a PH worked for some time. Not only the first settler, but worker or warrior after that, for I see after having founded Oporto both cities can start workers on their own PHs (no food yet, and EXP IMP uses hammers not food anyway). That's another question I think, but I'm afraid it's gonna be already necessary at that point to have a pair of warriors, and only then workers, and only after all that everything can be chopped and whipped.

 

[krikav]

To T45 first.

Spoiler T60 (BW, but no AH) :

Met Mansa really early, but he didn't put points on me so no semi-iso.
Alot of land available (1400 tiles), I suspected we where on a inland sea but now I'm not so sure.

SiP, worker first, Agri->BW.
When worker was done, I went for the wheat first, gets me to pop2 as quick, and gets some more production earlier.

I saw a barb warrior over the coast, so my warrior stayed put on this peninsula until Mansas scout killed him.
Note the suspiscious ocean tile SE->SE of the easternmost point of the peninsula!

Met Alex and Toku, none whom have mining. So I think all other AIs now will have mining, unless Hammy is in the game and skewed the early demographics.
One CRE AI I haven't met too, and one of the unknown AIs start with myst (Buddhist one).
BW is in and I revolt so I can whip a worker. Would have prefered to settle 1N of copper, but an archer is roaming around there now and I need more warriors to take that spot safely.

Warrior has fortifed alot, and if it dies, the worker can finish a chop and make a warrior in one turn in the new city.
The chop in capital is just enough to finish two warriors which will go up and secure copper-town.

My warrior won against the archer, so built a worker in this city with two chops while waiting for the corn to come online.

I went with two workers to get the copper online fast. The forest NW of Oporto is pre-chopped and I planned to get an axe out quick there.

Ofcourse a warrior entered before I could finish my axe. I tried to make him attack against my warrior but no. Took a 50-50 here (and won!) to avoid having to 1pop whip an axe.

 

[krikav]

Hi people!
I just got a reg to make a proposal to discuss: what if one put the capital on a FP? Isn't here too much food for only 1 satellite? I think the second city could be placed right where starting warrior is, and you could start with that settler right away with the PH. No danger from barbs in that corner. And it will be very compact and cheap. Will have room for other cities very close. What do you guys think?
(Yeah, long time read-only here. And as it's my first post I'd like to thank the community for what's done and said here, I appreciate that. Got my (oh, very few...) deity wins thanks to you. Such a nice cosy place this forum is!)
Actually I'm going to try it myself, curious about it. I hope it want make me stagnate - there will only be a PH worked for some time. Not only the first settler, but worker or warrior after that, for I see after having founded Oporto both cities can start workers on their own PHs (no food yet, and EXP IMP uses hammers not food anyway). That's another question I think, but I'm afraid it's gonna be already necessary at that point to have a pair of warriors, and only then workers, and only after all that everything can be chopped and whipped.

Welcome to the forums, nice to have you here!
I did consider the FP, it's nice of the reasons that you mention. But at the same time... It misses out on the corn in the capital, and it doesn't get a 2H city center. So overall I don't think it's the best choice.

 

[sampsa]

@Alexander IV welcome! I'm not a massive fan of killing the fp in order to share the - I think I like even 1E better. The fp is a nice tile and you are moving away from , which are more important things to me than the ability to share seafood. I'm also not a fan of settler first. I encourage you to try it and compare the results. Nearly always worker first wins by a significant margin.

 

[lymond]

I'd almost be inclined to eschew the hammer bonus and actually move inland 1NE. What I do not like in any scenario is losing the wet corn. 1NE looks like a nice inland cap while leaving open two cities to share the seafood, and in 1 case the wheat.

 

[user330977]

Spoiler :

@krikav I decided to settle on the PH too, especially after seeing the copper to the NW after reasearching BW. I needed a city to claim that and it will share the capital's corn to grow and become a production city. Here's the state of play on T65/750.

I often like to pick up Stonehenge but with no stone nearby and not being industrial I may have to forgo it. I need to get the copper hooked up and some axes out for protection. I am sending warriors out also to scout and fogbust. I met Zara Yaqob and he tends to be a pain in my experience so things could get interesting. Future city plans include 1w of northern corn (IW essential first though) and coastal by pigs. Wheat lies to the east also, so that needs to be picked up as well.

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T60 (BW no AH) :

Pottery is in, and I micro perfecly with avoid growth to get twice the food gain next turn.
And then I screw up and forget completely to hand the corn over to copper town...

Comming settlers are done this way, I make sure to put less than 10 hammers into a settler to I can 3pop whip them. Happy cap is crippling.

I had a workboat moving toward churchil/Toku in the west.
After pottery, I saved up cash and war considering either going writing or sailing, and when Church got writing I went for sailing and when it finished I had reached his shores and got +1c in each city, really nice!

Got the corn spot, two grains and exp means settling smack in the jungle isn't really a problem. Exp is nice to 1pop whip granary too.

Got Hindu autospread last turn, but wanted to finish settler before revolt. Will revolt to Hindu now to buddy up with Mansa/Church. Mansa looks like he is a shield against Alex and Churchil against Toku. I think I have enough room to tech peacefully here and perhaps backstab Mansa later on.
Settler is moving out to claim more of the river, and make use of the corn that Oporto can't use anymore.
The disgusting happy-cap means I soon have to stop working food completely and resort to stuff like riverside plains cottages.

I can slow-build some more workers though, will need alot of them soon enough to clear jungle.

But units are already a big problem.
Not sure how to resolve the happines situation best. Math doesn't do much for me so charging for calendar doesn't make much sense.
I need monarchy desperatly too, but don't want to self tech that.
Perhaps aestethics is the way to go here too.
Will finish writing, get a library in capital up and save up cash and see where I take it from there. Good thing that I put EP on Mansa and can see what he is doing. He just recently went finish so I think he is going for calendar. His tech rate is bad too so I don't think I can hope to get any gold/gems in trade.

 

[Alexander IV]

@krikav @sampsa
Thank you!
Yes, I'm doing it right now, but going slow trying not to make some stupid mistakes. Think I'll post that when the results become more clear.
Btw, I don't see how to make a spoiler, can anyone explain where it is?

 

[krikav]

@Alexander IV you just push the "Insert" button and select spoiler. It might ask you for a title of the spoiler which you may or may not leave empty.

Spoiler :

 

[Major Tom]

@krikav

Spoiler :

You know this is terra? I mean you were wondering about semi isolation. Old world should be filled quite soon. By the way, carrack is tailor made for this map.

 

[krikav]

@krikav

Spoiler :

You know this is terra? I mean you were wondering about semi isolation. Old world should be filled quite soon. By the way, carrack is tailor made for this map.

No, had no clue. I never check which map script it is.